Hornby announce TT:120

[JohnR]

59 minutes ago, HExpressD said:

A few days later, but good to see that S*******s is happy to repeat this now debunked myth, proving the long held belief that the total amount of research that goes into one of his videos is 0. The sooner a manufacturer slaps him with a lawyers letter the better. 

 

Oh dear, I had thought his TT videos were actually not that bad. 

[leonk]

3 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

Oh dear, I had thought his TT videos were actually not that bad. 

I haven’t watched the video yet but the claim is in the video title.

[Steamport Southport]

26 minutes ago, Pteremy said:

 

The 'big steamers' were the stars of their day - crack engines on crack express trains. The trains you would stand in awe at on the platform of a large station, or when they passed at speed through a station or in the middle of the countryside. Running such trains with appropriate stock round even the most rudimentary roundy roundy can connect with that sense of awe.

 

The modern equivalent is the colourfully liveried/branded high speed loco hauled trains or multiple units of the 2023 Railway network. The trains you would see today standing on a platform or as they flash by in open country. So why oh why is Hornby prioritising the past? For example, when is the casual observer going to see an 08 shunting anything, let alone wagons that ceased to be used decades ago? Something does not add up.

 

 

Saw one this morning actually shunting at Speke Junction.

 

Often two more not far away near where Hattons is in Ditton. Usually one knocking about in Allerton. So that's at least four to my knowledge within walking distance of my house. I think there are others knocking about as well. They're still a regular sight.

 

You can see the Ditton ones on Google Maps.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/ditton+junction/@53.35574,-2.7787328,58m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

Here's one at Allerton. Seems to be the orange one, there is also a regular blue one. Sometimes others appear.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/ditton+junction/@53.3578437,-2.8807082,29m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

 

Jason

[Ravenser]

38 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

Oh dear, I had thought his TT videos were actually not that bad. 

 

Sam is rather fairer. I've seen the rel;evant bit of his news roundup - he admits he was sceptical of the claim and thought the radius 6 piece might have been used but on assembly of a ring of radius 3 , pushed home tight he reckoned there was a 30mm overlap  (Chadwick claimed it was 3" I think) 

 

Sam stated that he hadn't noticed this when setting up his own fixed layout on a board, but on closer inspection that circuit had slight gaps on the inner rail at the joints. This was replicated when making a circle with his loose radius 3 curves. He also notes that the R3 curves aren't quite sitting flat. He recommended people use Peco TT track instead

 

It does look as if the geometry of the radius 3 curves is slightly out, which it shouldn't be. (Whether Hornby can resolve this simply, by very slightly shortening each outer rail by about 1mm-2mm I don't know.) It looks as if the R2 curves are fine

 

It wasn't a Chadwick style rant - it was clear from the video that the track as supplied can be used pinned down without any serious issues, and there are workarounds. But the stance is that the curves aren't quite right and they should be

 

Personally I wouldn't use code 80 deadfrog out of a trainset when I can use code 55 livefrog from Peco anyway. So it would be a non-issue for me.  But Hornby will need to tweak this particular item going forward

Edited February 15, 2023 by Ravenser

[TT-Pete]

9 hours ago, Roy L S said:

The real issue is availability of suitably sized transfers for the cabside numbers and smaller items of lettering (cycling lions are not such an issues as the "large" Fox N gauge ones will work OK I think). Commissioning bespoke transfers from Fox is a possibility but it isn't cheap and will understandably take time.

 

 I already looked into this, re-sizing Fox transfers was quoted at £45.

 

These two Railtec sets (BR blue Hymek and Headcode transfers) cost £17 for the pair, were reduced to 1:120 and arrived in my postbox 14 days after placing the order.

 

 

Anything in their range can be reduced to TT 1:120

@railtec-models

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by TT-Pete

[natterjack]

1 hour ago, britishcolumbian said:

so the manufacturer, when starting out, prioritises the past because that's where most of the interest is!

It is also where there is greater variety of shape- we are presently in a period of convergent design evolution where everything of a particular purpose is tending to look rather similar (form and function etc)

[Pteremy]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

 

Furthermore steam-era modelling remains the majority of the hobby. I'm sorry , but this is a non-point

 

 

Take the blinkers off. Hornby is canibalising what it has, not providing what a genuinely new market requires.

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

……… In fact there are several hundred 08s still in service on the network

 

I don’t think that’s remotely right Ravenser.

There are supposed to be less than 100 in service, with one Class 08 database saying there are around 82 still active.

 

There are however, over 70 in preservation, or so I’m told.

 

 

 

.

[Porfuera]

44 minutes ago, Pteremy said:

Take the blinkers off. Hornby is canibalising what it has, not providing what a genuinely new market requires.

 

Whatever you may think, both TT:120 sets have sold out again and are currently only available on preorder - this is the third tranche of the Scotsman sets to sell out. Pretty good for a completely new scale where nothing else is available yet (in UK outline, at least). Maybe they know more about their business than you do...

 

Also, everything in TT:120 is new from the ground up so they aren't canibalising anything - they could've chosen anything for their first sets but decided to go with large steamers for the reason that they quite clearly sell.

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Porfuera
added UK outline

[Roy L S]

16 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

 

Whatever you may think, both TT:120 sets have sold out again and are currently only available on preorder - this is the third tranche of the Scotsman sets to sell out. Pretty good for a completely new scale where nothing else is available yet (in UK outline, at least). Maybe they know more about their business than you do...

 

Isn't is the second tranche of Scotsman sets to sell out rather than the third with current pre-orders being for said third set? 

 

It is good going either way, but I would still suggest not too much is read into these figures just yet as I suspect many sets are being bought by modellers from other scales who see somewhere less than £200 for an entire set (after club discount - £165 for the Easterner) as a price they are prepared to pay to take a look. Let's face it, it is way less that the cost of a plain DCC ready Bachmann V2 alone, even after discount!

 

Roy

[Porfuera]

9 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

Isn't is the second tranche of Scotsman sets to sell out rather than the third

 

I believe there was one before Christmas, one early January and one late Jan / early Feb.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Porfuera

[cctransuk]

10 hours ago, Roy L S said:

Me neither Les

 

The real issue is availability of suitably sized transfers for the cabside numbers and smaller items of lettering (cycling lions are not such an issues as the "large" Fox N gauge ones will work OK I think). Commissioning bespoke transfers from Fox is a possibility but it isn't cheap and will understandably take time.

 

Another factor even before that is how easy the loco is to disassemble sufficiently (including glazing removal) if a "smart" design and things clip together it may not be a problem, but if loads of glue is involved it will be. 

 

As an N modeller and used to painting much smaller models to a fairly reasonable standard the thought doesn't daunt me, but no repaint is really a "shake a rattle can" job, it requires much more care and finesse, and even a "plain" black loco involves different colours in places, plus a decent varnish layer. All very easy to do badly......

 

Roy

 

As I posted elsewhere, the entire Cambridge Custom Transfers range will be available for 2.5mm. scale when we reopen in mid-March.

 

John Isherwood.

[Porfuera]

2 hours ago, Roy L S said:

It is good going either way, but I would still suggest not too much is read into these figures just yet as I suspect many sets are being bought by modellers from other scales

 

From the numbers reportedly written on the boxes, AFAIAA the numbers imported for each batch appear to be:

 

828 Scotsman sets in the first batch; 1011 in the second batch; 828 Scotsman sets and 888 Easterner sets in the third batch.

 

Presumably not all will have been sold - I imagine a small percentage will have been held back for replacements and possibly spares. Plus some people will have bought more than one set so obviously the number of actual customers will be lower. Still, it would be interesting to know how that compares to 00 sets - I've no ideas whether that sort of information is available.

 

If you look on social media you can see that there are people buying these sets that are completely new to model railways. I guess we will never know how many have been bought by modellers and how many by newcomers.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Porfuera

[natterjack]

1 hour ago, Porfuera said:

I guess we will never know how many have been bought by modellers and how many by newcomers.

Not yet seen many being flogged off on ebay by the dissatisfied, bar one or two  exceptions clearly seeking a quick (substantial) profit!

[Ravenser]

5 hours ago, Pteremy said:

Take the blinkers off. Hornby is canibalising what it has, not providing what a genuinely new market requires.

 

Sorry, but this is a misleading trope.

 

You do not have special insight into what "a genuinely new market" requires - cos you're part of the existing market...

 

Virtually every type of loco built in significant numbers in the last hundred years has been done in OO. A lot of the one offs have too. Many of the pre-Grouping locos built in significant numbers that made it to c1955 have been done too. Likewise virtually all significant types of post 1923 coaching stock

 

So basically whatever gets done in TT:120 will already be available in OO. The idea that prototypes only have merit if they are currently in Bachmann's or Dapol's or Rapido's OO ranges - but not if they are in Hornby's - is patently absurd.

 

So is the idea that someone blundered into earlier , that Classes 68 and 70 (of which there are a grand total of 71) would be a much better proposition than a model of Class 66 ,  which numbers many hundreds of locos

 

There are more 08s running around the network at present than Classes 68, 69, and 70 combined...

 

And modern high speed express units necessarily will be in the Hornby range - cos Bachmann have only ever done the Voyager, after  Virgin leaned on them to do it , and Barwell dropped it from the range a decade ago and can't be bothered to bring it back... You did spot that we've seen EPs of the HST , and the Azuma has been declared to be a future TT model?

 

Hornby could have aimed the new range at the membership of DEMU (currently about 700 I think, maybe a bit less?).  To a large extent that is where AS are currently aiming.  But instead they're targetting  the families who visit preserved railways - but aren't in the hobby. That's a fairly sizeable group

 

The Facebook groups show that a lot of those who have bought the sets so far are in fact new to the hobby. Arguments that the strategy won't work are rather negated by the fact that so far it has been working.

 

What the future holds is another matter. But we do know it holds a TT:120 Class 66 and HST

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Ravenser

[toby_tl10]

On 14/02/2023 at 06:28, Ravenser said:

There really is quite a determined effort to stamp out this new scale going on

I don't think it's the new scale, but rather Red Box and their approach to this scale. There's a difference

Edited February 16, 2023 by toby_tl10

[Ron Ron Ron]

6 hours ago, Ravenser said:

…….There are more 08s running around the network at present than Classes 68, 69, and 70 combined...….

 

There are about the same number of 08’s remaining in service (circa 82’ish) as those three types ….and soon there’ll be less, as more 69’s are delivered.

That’s unless you count the large number of 08’s in the preservation sector.

 

 

.

[Hobby]

4 hours ago, toby_tl10 said:

 but rather Red Box and their approach to this scale.

 

OK, you're the "expert", please tell us how you'd have done a completely new scale launch, maximise sales and profits and open it up beyond the existing model railway fraternity, and what your expertise is to validate your ideas?

 

Before you do it might be worth you watching that latest SK interview in which he explains their current strategy, half way down page 198.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Hobby

[toby_tl10]

49 minutes ago, Hobby said:

OK, you're the "expert", please tell us how you'd have done a completely new scale launch, maximise sales and profits and open it up beyond the existing model railway fraternity, and what your expertise is to validate your ideas?

 

Before you do it might be worth you watching that latest SK interview in which he explains their current strategy, half way down page 198.

I'm afraid that's not what I said.

 

I was replying to Raverser's comment of "effort to stamp out this new scale" and changed "this new scale" to "the company and its approach to the scale", based on observations.

 

I did not express my opinion on the scale, nor the company, nor its approach. I suppose you will have to ask someone else.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

OK, you're the "expert", please tell us how you'd have done a completely new scale launch, maximise sales and profits and open it up beyond the existing model railway fraternity, and what your expertise is to validate your ideas? 

 

I think that you have misinterpreted toby_tl10's comment. He is not expressing a personal view either way, he is merely saying that some/many/most of the negative comments can be explained by that reasoning.

[Ravenser]

3 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

There are about the same number of 08’s remaining in service (circa 82’ish) as those three types ….and soon there’ll be less, as more 69’s are delivered.

That’s unless you count the large number of 08’s in the preservation sector.

 

 

.

 

What about the industrial sector? If you want a shunter you get hold of a second-hand 08. That makes the 08 a 21st century J94....

 

I'm currently attempting a contemporary wagon works . That could certainly be done in TT with a pair of 66s as the "mainline" locos and an 08 to shunt the wagons round the works

 

The idea that the 08 is somehow a bad choice is crackers. They are after all just about the largest British class ever built, and they have a 69 year (and counting) service life. (Oh ,and some very similar locos were used on the Continent, which may help with a scale which is at the moment very largely a Continental European affair commercially)

[Ravenser]

7 hours ago, toby_tl10 said:

I don't think it's the new scale, but rather Red Box and their approach to this scale. There's a difference

 

 

I know where you are coming from , and "Hornby haters" are indeed a prominent force in all this. 

 

But if you look back at the Peco TT:120 announcement thread, you'll see that attempts to discuss the announcement and the implications of the new scale faced repeated interventions from posters new to the thread trying to shut down the discussion. There was wave after wave of statements that it wasn't happening - the product is not for the British market, nobody is launching a new British scale, Peco don't mean a word of what they've just spent 6 pages of the Railway Modeller saying, only the very very naive would believe that, it's just a bit of window dressing.....

 

"Nothing's actually happening. Please stop wasting our time talking about this . Move along now, nothing to see here"

 

That was long before we knew Red Box were involved.

 

And speaking personally a lot of the heat has come from N gauge modellers, some of whom see TT:120 as a threat to their own scale . It's certainly a rival for the support of those who feel they haven't got space for OO. Any attempt to suggest that TT:120 might offer opportunities that N gauge doesn't , or that there might be any limitations to current N gauge and it is jumped on by N gauge modellers. Even float an idea about the sort of layout you could build in TT:120 given the products , and people jump in insisting you should do that in N , not in TT. After someone attempted to gibbet me for this elsewhere on the forum  I have fairly strong feelings about that side of the opposition.

 

Red Box aren't in N , so that part of the opposition has nothing much to do with feelings about them.

 

At this point I'm not sure there is any practical distinction  between trying to stop people buying TT:120 to ensure the commercial failure of the Hornby range and give Red Box a bloody nose, and trying to stamp this out as a commercial scale in Britain. The Chadwick video was very much attempting the first.

 

Set aside any possible glitches in the actual commercial launch - what on earth are we doing as a hobby trying frantically to secure the commercial failure and disappearance of an entire new scale??

 

Faced with a serious large-scale attempt to draw new blood into the hobby , why in heaven's name are folk trying to scare off the newbies by frantically screaming "Wake up! You've been lied to! You'll be skinned alive and dumped"???

[frobisher]

42 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

The idea that the 08 is somehow a bad choice is crackers. They are after all just about the largest British class ever built, and they have a 69 year (and counting) service life. (Oh ,and some very similar locos were used on the Continent, which may help with a scale which is at the moment very largely a Continental European affair commercially)

 

I can't fault the choice of the first three locos out of the factory for Hornby.  The 08 being one of the first two would have been better from a trainset point of view, but that's probably the only level of criticism.  I suspect my resolve (that I can't really afford anything hobby-wise at the moment) is going to melt away when they announce that trainset...

[Ravenser]

It has taken us just 4 months to go from this:

 

On 10/10/2022 at 20:15, Pmorgancym said:

I wonder why they didn't try something like aninglenook set, 08 5 wagons 2 points and a suitable number of straights?

 

"Hornby have screwed up the range by not doing a shunting set with an 08 and some wagons"

 

to this

 

 

18 hours ago, Pteremy said:

So why oh why is Hornby prioritising the past? For example, when is the casual observer going to see an 08 shunting anything, let alone wagons that ceased to be used decades ago? Something does not add up.

 

 

 

"Hornby have screwed up the range by doing a shunting set with an 08 and some wagons"

 

Give me strength.

 

Poster 1 has missed that the range includes what he is asking for.

Poster 2 has also missed that the range announced includes what he is asking for (there's an HST coming soon and a Class 800 Azuma promised)

 

Perhaps we can discuss the potential to do a quite substantial shunting plank in TT:120 in a 4' x 1' space (Carl Arendt's definition of a micro) without someone starting a "let's give him a good kicking" thread elsewhere  on the forum??

 

Operational interest , and all that?

[Roy L S]

48 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

It has taken us just 4 months to go from this:

 

 

"Hornby have screwed up the range by not doing a shunting set with an 08 and some wagons"

 

to this

 

 

 

 

"Hornby have screwed up the range by doing a shunting set with an 08 and some wagons"

 

Give me strength.

 

Poster 1 has missed that the range includes what he is asking for.

Poster 2 has also missed that the range announced includes what he is asking for (there's an HST coming soon and a Class 800 Azuma promised)

 

Perhaps we can discuss the potential to do a quite substantial shunting plank in TT:120 in a 4' x 1' space (Carl Arendt's definition of a micro) without someone starting a "let's give him a good kicking" thread elsewhere  on the forum??

 

Operational interest , and all that?

 

 

The 4ft x 1ft (well OK 1200mm x 400mm) "micro" is exactly what I am exploring for TT120 and have been scribbling plan ideas for. It is definitely possible to do something which will provide sufficient operating interest that goes beyond an "inglenook". I plan to use PECO track for this and an immediate restriction is caused by their 16cm long 36 inch radius points. Dare I say it but a shorter 18 inch radius point would work much better for the more restricted places. Even still I seem to have managed something that includes a run round loop that will accommodate three or four short wheelbase wagons. 

 

On a similar vein, there are those who have said no point in selecting the R1 curves in the Hornby range, however these alone facilitate a "roundy-roundy" on a 2ft wide board so for the very space strapped who are looking at a continuous run and are happy with smaller locos and stock I actually think it is a really good choice.

 

Roy

Edited February 16, 2023 by Roy L S