Heljan ES1 exclusive for Locomotion and Rails of Sheffield

[Zunnan]

Its a nice eclectic prototype, I do have a soft spot for these early electrics. In this day and age of having to think closely on what I 'can' and 'should' stretch to, I'll just say I'm glad to finally see these sorts of locomotives being the subject of rtr models. The level of intricate detail on show, especially around the chassis, shows you exactly where that price tag is going. It looks to be well worth the asking price IMHO.

[PaulRhB]

57 minutes ago, Iskra said:

I'd say it's a price totally divorced from the current economic situation, and that such prices are going to cause an even further decline in sales and subsequent contraction in the market.

But it’s not ‘divorced’ from the current situation because that’s what’s pushing up the manufacturing costs and hence end price! 
The reality is it has to cost that to cover the limited production because of the market squeeze. Ok it may not be accessible to the full range it might in good times but that is the reality, they aren’t going to discount and crucify the margins because they need to pay their staff too. 
 

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, Iskra said:

The current trend is for a squeeze in disposable income, and an increasing number of model retailers are having discounting sales in the run up to christmas, which should be sounding alarm bells as this is normally full price time. Amazon also reporting a sales slump today. I'd say it's a price totally divorced from the current economic situation, and that such prices are going to cause an even further decline in sales and subsequent contraction in the market.

 

I suppose those that really want one will pay it. But, it's a niche loco for a high price, so it will be an interesting one to watch. I does look a nice model though and in a nice amount of livery options. 

I think your highlighted sentence says it.  This is a discretionary spend, those who have the money and want one will buy it and those who cannot won't.  The price will be reflective of lower demand due to the current situation and also it's perculiarity plus being able to help pay the costs of the people who made it, the people who sold it and the people who licensed it who are also impacted by the current high inflationary period we are in.

 

No-one has to buy anything they don't need to have.

[AY Mod]

49 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

I'll wager there are more people who can't build catenary compared to those who can.

 

Nearly matched by the number of YouTubers who don't care that it's all gone invisible; the same as third rail and that's easy (but obviously not worth their effort).

[Fredo]

I have pre ordered 26500 today, hopefully 26501 will come along at sometime in the future.

[steve1]

The model(s) will see the insides of considerably more display cabinets than it ever will layouts.

 

steve

[Porcy Mane]

9 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

Nearly matched by the number of YouTubers who don't care that it's all gone invisible; the same as third rail and that's easy (but obviously not worth their effort).

 

ES1s always ran with two crew members to make the switch between overhead & third rail less perilous. Quite a dangerous job by all accounts with all those exposed bare conductors and switches just raring to give any stray fingers a bl**dy good tingling.

 

I wish some of those yuchoobers would get the same.

 

Maybe it's time to reintroduce the old PC models tram catenery etch again. (now in the hands of P87-models ?)

 

Anyone for Peco third rail!

Edited October 28, 2022 by Porcy Mane

[PaulRhB]

5 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Nearly matched by the number of YouTubers who don't care that it's all gone invisible; the same as third rail and that's easy (but obviously not worth their effort).

Catenary isn’t even that hard . . .

 

 

and you can cheat . . .

 

 

But some friends make no effort even when you take the APT round! 
 

 

😈 With apologies to Nigel 😇

[Michael Hodgson]

8 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Catenary isn’t even that hard . . .

 

 

Perhaps, but the knitting gets in the of the finger-poken, fiddling with 3-link couplings, rearailing, track cleaning etc.  Abd it's easily damaged, reaching over to something beyond it.

 

The same excuses dont 'really apply to the 3rd rail though.

[Iskra]

50 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

But it’s not ‘divorced’ from the current situation because that’s what’s pushing up the manufacturing costs and hence end price! 
The reality is it has to cost that to cover the limited production because of the market squeeze. Ok it may not be accessible to the full range it might in good times but that is the reality, they aren’t going to discount and crucify the margins because they need to pay their staff too. 
 

If it doesn't sell because it's over-priced (or enough people can't/won't afford that price), it won't cover any margins at all! It's a risk, in a risky time and if it doesn't sell then the whole concept will be found to be divorced from reality. We are in interesting modelling times.

[D9020 Nimbus]

I was caught by surprise by this one. With Heljan as the partner an obscure diesel or electric was most likely but, although I was aware that the ES1 was at Shildon, I'd discounted it as I thought nobody in their right mind would introduce a loco with such a restricted sphere of operation, needing overhead catenary, at a time of economic crisis. But of course work started in January 2021 when the hobby was booming.

 

Heljan are the lucky ones in this—with it being an exclusive model they have a profit with, one would assume, no financial risk whatever. This is really a collector's item, I cannot imagine many ever running prototypically on layouts. Hopefully for Rails and Locomotion, there will be enough wealthy collectors for them to avoid a loss. I suspect the most popular version will be the current condition one, which might be used on a model of Locomotion — it was suggested as a subject in one of the Peco Setrack plan books!

[PaulRhB]

1 minute ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Perhaps, but the knitting gets in the of the finger-poken,

careful finger poken or hopefully not required if you clean the track, see below. 

 

1 minute ago, Michael Hodgson said:

fiddling with 3-link couplings,

self inflicted risk 😆

 

1 minute ago, Michael Hodgson said:

rearailing,

finger either side of the wire, dead easy!

 

1 minute ago, Michael Hodgson said:

track cleaning

 

simply planning required!

 

1 minute ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

etc.  Abd it's easily damaged, reaching over to something beyond it.

 

So are lampposts, fences etc but we don’t seem to miss those out 😉

 

1 minute ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

The same excuses dont 'really apply to the 3rd rail though.

 
Ever tried cleaning the running rails next to a correctly modelled raised third rail? Ripping it off the Peco pots . . . 😱

[PaulRhB]

17 minutes ago, Iskra said:

If it doesn't sell because it's over-priced (or enough people can't/won't afford that price), it won't cover any margins at all! It's a risk, in a risky time and if it doesn't sell then the whole concept will be found to be divorced from reality. We are in interesting modelling times.

Overpriced in your opinion but the example others quoted, the Fairlie, is an almost identical price and has more options already than this up to £100 more which suggests it’s right in the zone for a relatively niche product. 
Remember the other Locomotion models, Jumbo & D class, were at this price 2-3 years ago before the financial crisis so I can’t see how you think they can produce it cheaper in the current climate? Any model can be a disaster but Rails seem convinced and aren’t even taking the collectors favourite pre group livery. 
Time will tell but it doesn’t look greedy bearing in mind the costs increase since those last steam locos. 

Edited October 28, 2022 by PaulRhB

[Bernard Lamb]

1 hour ago, Iskra said:

The current trend is for a squeeze in disposable income, and an increasing number of model retailers are having discounting sales in the run up to christmas, which should be sounding alarm bells as this is normally full price time. Amazon also reporting a sales slump today. I'd say it's a price totally divorced from the current economic situation, and that such prices are going to cause an even further decline in sales and subsequent contraction in the market.

 

I suppose those that really want one will pay it immediately, but in a couple of months it could well be in the bargain sections. It's a niche loco for a high price, so it will be an interesting one to watch. It does look a nice model though and in a nice amount of livery options. 

Quite so, at least for many people.

However we are talking about model trains and they fall into the essential purchase category.😀

If you look at trends, compared to the Caley locomotive, then price wise you are getting next years locomotive at last years price.

If you thing the price is high then come back this time next year for a real shock.

It is such a sweet little thing that I am sure it will sell well.

Not on my list, but it does seem to be reasonable in the grand scheme of things.

 

On a railway theme I was in coal drops yard the  other day. If you reckon that model railways are too expensive the don't go there for food or clothing. Funnily enough it was packed with mainly young people. No sign of any cutting back or squeeze on income there.

Bernard

[Iskra]

5 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Quite so, at least for many people.

However we are talking about model trains and they fall into the essential purchase category.😀

If you look at trends, compared to the Caley locomotive, then price wise you are getting next years locomotive at last years price.

If you thing the price is high then come back this time next year for a real shock.

It is such a sweet little thing that I am sure it will sell well.

Not on my list, but it does seem to be reasonable in the grand scheme of things.

 

On a railway theme I was in coal drops yard the  other day. If you reckon that model railways are too expensive the don't go there for food or clothing. Funnily enough it was packed with mainly young people. No sign of any cutting back or squeeze on income there.

Bernard

 

Maybe, but I see the Caley as much more versatile and as having more features and appeal. I can't dispute the attractiveness of this locomotive, I'm just not convinced it represents value for money, but that is down for each modeller to decide and we shall see how it sells.

 

I run three businesses and while there is much talk of income squeezes etc, I am equally not seeing it at this point and sales remain strong. It's the numerous (almost constant) discount sales from the retailers that you wouldn't normally see at this point that are leading me to question the economic health of the hobby. I suppose however, that emerging from a boom into a more challenging time will always lead to a glut of supply and therefore discounting sales. Like I said earlier, we are in interesting times. 

[PaulRhB]

18 minutes ago, Iskra said:

and while there is much talk of income squeezes etc, I am equally not seeing it at this point and sales remain strong.

Yes and indeed I’m working more because of recruitment shortages so even bearing in mind the cost increases I’d heavily budgeted for on food and fuel etc I have slightly more disposable income while keeping that ‘fighting fund’ well ahead of the predictions because of the uncertainty. 
 

[Red Devil]

1 hour ago, Porcy Mane said:

 

ES1s always ran with two crew members to make the switch between overhead & third rail less perilous. Quite a dangerous job by all accounts with all those exposed bare conductors and switches just raring to give any stray fingers a bl**dy good tingling.

 

I wish some of those yuchoobers would get the same.

 

Maybe it's time to reintroduce the old PC models tram catenery etch again. (now in the hands of P87-models ?)

 

Anyone for Peco third rail!

No, far better and easier to use tram overhead fittings are available for from Mark Hughes nowadays.

[AlfaZagato]

Price isn't that bad at the end of the day.   Compares very favorably against similar Continental prototypes.   Heljan's always been on the high side, anyways (though I lucked out on my 77.)

 

My bigger concern is what sort of esoteric adjustments will need to be made upon receipt.   I've bought five Heljan locos thus far, three of them new.   Of that fleet, two of the new ones needed attention before I could run them.    Admittedly, those two were steam outline, not an electric as here.   My 77 hasn't needed any attention.

[GoingUnderground]

2 hours ago, HonestTom said:

According to the video on Hornby Magazine's YouTube channel, the original collector was only there very briefly, so they didn't think it was worth it.

I believe that the bow collector was replaced in 1908, 3 years after the locos were introduced into service. Source: "The London & North Eastern Railway Encyclopaedia" https://www.lner.info/locos/Electric/es1.php 

 

 

[298]

37 minutes ago, Red Devil said:

No, far better and easier to use tram overhead fittings are available for from Mark Hughes nowadays.

 

You probably wouldn't even need the whole etch, as pantograph operation doesn't need frogs in the wire above pointwork, just the wire to be correctly placed which could be an issue with such a narrow pantograph head. But it's certainly easy enough to start with basic overhead and then add to or replace it, try doing the same with trackwork and you'd end up scrapping a whole layout.

 

I already know the obvious answer but what would be good would be a mechanism to raise and lower the pantograph, as the tunnel exit from the quay would make a good scenic break for a quayside micro layout.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Re the catenary wire, follow the Alan Whitehouse EZ line route and there's no danger of disasters.

 

Mike.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Iskra said:

If it doesn't sell because it's over-priced (or enough people can't/won't afford that price), it won't cover any margins at all! It's a risk, in a risky time and if it doesn't sell then the whole concept will be found to be divorced from reality. We are in interesting modelling times.

First define 'reality'.  I have ordered one from Locomotion because I like to support the museum in some small way.  It's way outside my normal modelling area of interest although i do have something of an interest in the NER (family links).  But I saw a  real one working albeit in BR's faux NER livery and was fascinated by it.  And our memories are a reason why many of us buy models.

 

But when it comes to costs and prices and the latter covering the former we're all stabbing in the dark to some extent because we don't know any of the relevant numbers and as ever the fewer that are produced then the higher the retail price.   But in many respects all of that is totally irrelevant because if you like it, and want it, and can afford it, you will be likely to buy it.  If your opinions are the opposite of any of those then you are unlikely to buy it.  What matters to those selling the model is that they will clear their investment and I doubt if they would be involved if they didn't consider that likely.

 

 

[Ravenser]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Well it's one I long ago suggested to Locomotion as a good candidate for a model so I have obviously ordered one - I wonder if it might arrive in time for Christmas?  

 

The only problem I have is that having ordered the Locomotion NER liveried version I don't having anything suitable to run with it (or indeed anywhere suitable to run it but Trafalgar Yard could be condensed down although wagons will be the bigger problem.   As I saw 26500 at work in its natural habitat that might have been a bit more sensible but there we are - I can't really afford two of something which is well outside my mainstream interest and I prefer to support Locomotion with my purchase.

 

 

I did once toy with a version of the US Timesaver shunting puzzle , presented as a version of Quayside Yard transported to East London with 1500V traction in the 50s, and an off stage fiddle siding  : "Tynesaver Wharf"   ("Tynesaver - the Economical Fuel!" in faded pre-war paint...)

 

That could suit it nicely , and also provide a stage for any other stray shunting tanks /small diesels you have (Classes 14. 15, 16. 17, 20 all possible ). Not to mention any Class 71s you want taken into consideration when sentencing, as it might have been loaned to the Southern for a Thameside branch..

 

Plan here   and  here- it could work . The original was 5'8" by 10" , so a layout 6' -7' x 15" with scenic treatment could certainly be possible

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Ravenser

[Red Devil]

For those who may feel like having a go at tram style overhead.

Ask anyone who's done any and they'll all have their own preferred methods.....

This is mine, Mark Hughes etched fittings with 0.3mm straight nickel silver wire (available in yard lengths from Eileen's Emporium).

I prefer straight wire as you're not fighting to pull it straight, do all span wires then attach folded ears to wire as required, dab of solder paint and it's all solid. You can then go round curves in a series of straight lines, although I doubt you'll have to go anywhere near tram radius! You can joint yard lengths in an ear too, there are frogs, pull offs and board joints within the range, very easy to use, if you can solder you can do tram overhead especially if as mentioned above you're using pantographs or bows. 

Whole job will be solid and will easily cope with being bounced around in the back of a van and sticking your hand under to clean track....I know, I did it plenty!

 

Hope Andy doesn't mind me using his photo taken for BRM some time ago....

 

Setts same story, ask anyone.....again my preferred method is scribed Knauf Easy Plaster (available from Wickes). 

 

Or, just imagine it's there....or anywhere in between 😀

 

 

 

[Matabiau]

Can anyone explain the difference between the original and preserved versions?