Rapido OO Gauge Y7

[cctransuk]

15 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Why do we constantly get the complaint that people "don't have the skills to lay perfect track"?

 

My garage-sized layout is the first that I have built - aged 73. The layout is split into ten baseboards, each hinged to the wall for easy access to the wiring.

 

There is ZERO physical or electrical inter-baseboard connection - each board is effectively an independent layout. I have minimal electrical knowledge or experience.

 

The baseboards are quality plywood screwed to quality softwood framing, with standard cork underlay attached with spray adhesive - nothing whatsoever exotic or skilled here.

 

The track is standard Peco Code 75 flat-bottomed, and I learned how to convert the turnouts to live frog from an enquiry here.

 

The only thing that I did, which some modellers may not do, was to fix a continuous ring bus main of THICK copper wire, right round the room, for each control section.

 

These bus mains were connected to EACH AND EVERY, length of rail by stout copper dropper wires - ZERO reliance on rail joiners for electrical continuity.

 

If you can't be bothered to go to these lengths to ensure electrical integrity, don't blame your lack of skills - what I have done is ultra-basic but thorough, and no amount of 'stay-alives' or track / wheel cleaning will compensate if the power to rail connection is less than 100%.

 

...... and all the above applies, regardless of whether you use DC or DCC - I use the former, so no 'stay-alives' for me!

 

If you want perfect running, put in the time and effort - it's not rocket science!

 

John Isherwood.

 

Ronny - you miss the point!

 

There is NOTHING verging on craftsmanship or clever about what I have done - simply making the effort to do all the basic work thoroughly, without any shortcuts or 'that'll do' attitude.

 

ANYONE can do the same, and achieve the same results, if only they can be bothered yo do so.

 

John Isherwood.

[AMJ]

For those interested 1310 with 2 ex SR PMV's

One at the north is the veranda and guards brake, the southern one (behind loco) is a saloon.  Windows fit within the ironwork of the original body.

Often in later years run with the third PMV or Santa with the LNER ballast brake at the north.

Fourth PMV is in the workshop converted to saloon.

 

[JohnR]

2 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Ronny - you miss the point!

 

There is NOTHING verging on craftsmanship or clever about what I have done - simply making the effort to do all the basic work thoroughly, without any shortcuts or 'that'll do' attitude.

 

ANYONE can do the same, and achieve the same results, if only they can be bothered yo do so.

 

John Isherwood.

 

You might think that anyone can do the same as you. The evidence shows that they cant. 

[cctransuk]

2 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

Because, people dont have the skills? It may not be rocket science to you, but it IS difficult to a majority of people. 

 

OK - please enumerate those skills which you imagine I have, and which you lack, that prevent you from doing what I have done?

 

I have cut and glued cork underlay; cut RTR track to length, joined it with rail joiners and pinned it down.

 

I have cut wire of various thicknesses and fixed it to walls and baseboards with cable clips.

 

I have soldered wires together.

 

I would love to know how anybody manages to build a layout WITHOUT these ultra-basic skills - please enlighten me!

 

John Isherwood.

[cctransuk]

4 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

You might think that anyone can do the same as you. The evidence shows that they cant. 

 

Oh no!

 

The evidence shows that they won't!!

 

I await your response to my post above.

 

John Isherwood.

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

Because, people dont have the skills? It may not be rocket science to you, but it IS difficult to a majority of people. 

I wouldn't call myself a scientist but I've built a few layouts DC to begin with and latterly DCC.  I don't understand a lot of the technical stuff when you start adding on all the extra modules to add more complicated features or finetuning CVs to make locos run better but I do know the basics: soldered wires, isolation to avoid shorts (or for control in DC) and simply using a flat surface to lay track upon.

 

It's not a science, it's just the basics and let me tell you I get jolly frustrated at times when things aint running as they should, but a spot of cleaning, checking back to backs usually solves the problem.  The only locos I am considering adding stay alives to are an 08 and an 04 as neither like my station throat, but all my other N gauge is perfectly happy running when the track is clean and I am not forgetting to set my points the right way.

 

I use an NCE PowerCab, it controls the locos and the points which are switched using Cobalt IP Digitals that also power the frog - all from a single bus.

[woodenhead]

7 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I have soldered wires together.

 

 

You even avoid soldering these days - the only time I soldered on my latest layout was for the frogs, technically even they could have been done without solder if I'd planned a bit more track cutting and extended where I put one isolation per point.

 

I know it's lazy but those Peco ready soldered connectors are a joy.

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, woodenhead said:

I know it's lazy but those Peco ready soldered connectors are a joy.

 

But - you are then relying on the electrical integrity of the push-fit between the joiner and the rails, and the onward electrical reliability of joiners and rails as the current progresses away from the electrical feed.

 

What is immeasurably better is to solder the wire and the rail directly together - for EVERY length of rail, regardless of how short.

 

John Isherwood.

[cctransuk]

16 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Oh no!

 

The evidence shows that they won't!!

 

I await your response to my post above.

 

John Isherwood.

 

You may find my post amusing, but it is a serious point - what can't you do that I have done?

 

John Isherwood.

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, cctransuk said:

 

But - you are then relying on the electrical integrity of the push-fit between the joiner and the rails, and the onward electrical reliability of joiners and rails as the current progresses away from the electrical feed.

 

What is immeasurably better is to solder the wire and the rail directly together - for EVERY length of rail, regardless of how short.

 

John Isherwood.

Possibly, but I've no issues and the layout is short, there are a lot of wired connectors scattered about.

 

However, I admit, there is one track which I noticed the other day had the connector out one side so is not always making the connection which I must fix (a 5 minute job). 😞

 

The point is, you don't have to solder but the basics of electrical connectivity and how it flows is all you should need to know to wire a railway.

[Bishdurham]

1 hour ago, JohnR said:

 

Because, people dont have the skills? It may not be rocket science to you, but it IS difficult to a majority of people. 

Most things are difficult until you try.  But some things get easier with practice and some things require a friend.  But first you have to try!  Now to those Slater's hoppers I put in the attic in 1990!

[D9020 Nimbus]

I would not buy the sound-fitted version of the Y7 unless it has a stay-alive. I don't have an OO layout as yet—just a test-track—but the only sound-fitted 0-6-0 I have that is truly satisfactory is the Bachmann Caley one. And it's a tender engine. The Hornby 08 (Loksound) is prone to the sound hesitating on dead frog points—even though it is long enough to bridge the dead area. The Dapol Terrier is worse, and can have issues on plain track. By contrast, a new-style DC Hornby Terrier can travel all over the test track at walking pace with no issues—but the DCC/silent Hornby Terrier slows down almost to a stop when crossing the points.

 

I've been happy to pre-order the Accurascale "Buckjumper" with sound because it has a stay-alive.

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

I would not buy the sound-fitted version of the Y7 unless it has a stay-alive. I don't have an OO layout as yet—just a test-track—but the only sound-fitted 0-6-0 I have that is truly satisfactory is the Bachmann Caley one. And it's a tender engine. The Hornby 08 (Loksound) is prone to the sound hesitating on dead frog points—even though it is long enough to bridge the dead area. The Dapol Terrier is worse, and can have issues on plain track. By contrast, a new-style DC Hornby Terrier can travel all over the test track at walking pace with no issues—but the DCC/silent Hornby Terrier slows down almost to a stop when crossing the points.

 

I've been happy to pre-order the Accurascale "Buckjumper" with sound because it has a stay-alive.

 

All I can point out is that I run DC; and wouldn't consider sound even it was available for DC.

 

Why? I have yet to hear DCC sound that in any way resembles the sounds that I heard, prior to the end of steam on BR.

 

If those pale, tinny echoes of steam sound require all that extra electronic gadgetry, I'm glad that I'm out of it!

 

CJI.

[RapidoCorbs]

..... Anyway...

 

What will hopefully benefit all users, DC or DCC, are the beefed-up pickups we are planning for this loco. The chassis is similar in design to the 6-wheel Hunslet with bearing pickups, but since there are only 2 axles on the Y7, the intention is to supplement these with 4 plunger pickups (one on each wheel).

 

I do not believe there are any plans to factory-fit stay-alives. There is not a great deal of space inside the loco without sacrificing something else.

[thetalkinlens]

I'd like to ask a question on No.1310... the model is going to be based on the loco in preserved form. Is there a reasonably known list of differences to how it would have looked in the W. Worsdell livery in the NER period?

 

Vac pipes on the bufferbeams are the obvious one. I think there is also additional white lining around the edge of the tanks and cab which is not present on the preserved livery. Is there anything else?

[Ruston]

On 28/07/2023 at 19:17, Ruston said:

I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it. 😁

Seems that I didn't.

 

 

29 minutes ago, RapidoCorbs said:

I do not believe there are any plans to factory-fit stay-alives. There is not a great deal of space inside the loco without sacrificing something else.

The *cough* flywheel? *cough*

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Ruston

[davknigh]

56 minutes ago, RapidoCorbs said:

..... Anyway...

 

What will hopefully benefit all users, DC or DCC, are the beefed-up pickups we are planning for this loco. The chassis is similar in design to the 6-wheel Hunslet with bearing pickups, but since there are only 2 axles on the Y7, the intention is to supplement these with 4 plunger pickups (one on each wheel).

 

I do not believe there are any plans to factory-fit stay-alives. There is not a great deal of space inside the loco without sacrificing something else.

Has any thought been given to springing or compensating the non-driven axle? The Hunslet almost got there with the centre axle sprung but the rods were rigid so the springing was redundant. FWIW, I have a number of 0-4-0Ts that are compensated on the non-driven axle and they are very reliable on DC and no stay-alive. Pickup is via PB wire, 1 per wheel. A sample follows:

 

Cheers,

 

David

Edited August 1, 2023 by davknigh
Minor correction

[rapidoTom]

12 hours ago, thetalkinlens said:

I'd like to ask a question on No.1310... the model is going to be based on the loco in preserved form. Is there a reasonably known list of differences to how it would have looked in the W. Worsdell livery in the NER period?

 

Vac pipes on the bufferbeams are the obvious one. I think there is also additional white lining around the edge of the tanks and cab which is not present on the preserved livery. Is there anything else?

 

Hi,

 

As you say, the extra lining around the edges of the tanks was not on the preserved example, also the vac pipes and we have modelled the vac pipe controls in the right-hand side of the cab that should be easily removable if you wish to back-convert. The smokebox door is slightly different, we believe it was fitted with the current one (with closer hinges) in NCB days, as our NCB No.6 model also had the same one from the photos we've used as reference. This part is also separately fitted so you should be able to swap it if you're happy taking a small screwdriver to it! The Ramsbottom valves were also fitted from new but the preserved example is missing the arm that sticks out above the brass cover. We spent a lot of time trawling through the photos to get the details right!

 

There's also the thorny question of the correct shade of green (there's a whole thread on this forum dedicated to that), but we're consulting with several experts/groups and should get to a conclusion on that soon.

 

Hope that helps!

 

11 hours ago, davknigh said:

Has any thought been given to springing or compensating the non-driven axle?

 

The design does have hornblocks on both axles, so there should be some movement to allow for point gaps etc. The sort of compensation used on the model in your picture is similar to what I tend to use on my own kitbuilt/scratchbuilt locos, but is difficult to assemble with the sort of speed/consistency needed for factory production so unfortunately isn't easily applicable.

 

12 hours ago, Ruston said:

The *cough* flywheel? *cough*

 

I don't wish to ignite that debate again, but the main reason for keeping the flywheel here is that it benefits DC, DCC silent and DCC sound users - we don't want to take that away just to benefit the relatively small proportion of people who use stay-alives. That's no judgement on whether stay-alives are "worth it" or not, just market factors. As for providing space elsewhere for a stay-alive, we'd like to but there's no real standard size, so we'd have to allow extra space for multiple different brands - given how tightly everything in the Y7 is packaged, that wasn't really practical without making bigger sacrifices in this case.

[Bucoops]

In summary - model railways are full of compromises. And many modellers are full of ingenuity so will no doubt find a way. And we know a little bit of space can be achieved.by removing the flywheel.

[thetalkinlens]

42 minutes ago, rapidoTom said:

Hi,

 

As you say, the extra lining around the edges of the tanks was not on the preserved example, also the vac pipes and we have modelled the vac pipe controls in the right-hand side of the cab that should be easily removable if you wish to back-convert. The smokebox door is slightly different, we believe it was fitted with the current one (with closer hinges) in NCB days, as our NCB No.6 model also had the same one from the photos we've used as reference. This part is also separately fitted so you should be able to swap it if you're happy taking a small screwdriver to it! The Ramsbottom valves were also fitted from new but the preserved example is missing the arm that sticks out above the brass cover. We spent a lot of time trawling through the photos to get the details right!

 

There's also the thorny question of the correct shade of green (there's a whole thread on this forum dedicated to that), but we're consulting with several experts/groups and should get to a conclusion on that soon.

 

Hope that helps!

 

This helps massively, thank you for the detailed reply. I take my hat off to you!

 

This feels like a naive question but will decorated samples be shown before the pre-order book is closed?

[rapidoTom]

1 hour ago, thetalkinlens said:

 

This helps massively, thank you for the detailed reply. I take my hat off to you!

 

This feels like a naive question but will decorated samples be shown before the pre-order book is closed?

 

Glad to be of service!

 

We hope to have decorated samples before the order book closes, but it doesn't always work out that way depending on a number of things - we do have the renders available already and if we do get painted samples we'll be sure to show them in the newsletter (https://rapidotrains.co.uk/newsletter/), on here, and through various social media channels.

[Nile]

4 hours ago, rapidoTom said:

The design does have hornblocks on both axles, so there should be some movement to allow for point gaps etc. The sort of compensation used on the model in your picture is similar to what I tend to use on my own kitbuilt/scratchbuilt locos, but is difficult to assemble with the sort of speed/consistency needed for factory production so unfortunately isn't easily applicable.

Have a look at a Dapol B4 with its rocking front axle.

[AMJ]

I'm sure that @rapidoandy will remember operating 1310 before it had the cab shortened prior to the last overhaul about 13 years ago.  In NCB days the cab was about 6" bigger.

[rapidoandy]

1 minute ago, AMJ said:

I'm sure that @rapidoandy will remember operating 1310 before it had the cab shortened prior to the last overhaul about 13 years ago.  In NCB days the cab was about 6" bigger.

I never got to play with it with the longer cab so never had the luxurious set up!

[woodenhead]

EP running and for the Good Captain @Captain Kernow can you spot the PT shaped Easter Egg.