Hornby 2023 - New tooling - DELTIC prototype - Hornby Dublo

[cctransuk]

5 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

How 'limited' do you consider it to be a 'limited edition'? There must be an awful lot of catalogue releases now which will be pretty 'limited' in production numbers too, so whats the difference - a bit of paper in the box for a certificate and does it really matter if that has 500 written on it or 1000? Is it wrong to increase production if they greatly underestimated demand and have loads of disappointed buyers - I dont see why when its probably over a year from delivery so the only people which could complain would be investors that want the limited numbers to pump up values.

 

I simply don't understand this limited issue thing, unless one is buying as an 'investment'.

 

...... unless the thinking is that "I've got one on pre-order; (no guarantee nowadays); and you haven't, 'cos they've sold out".

 

What other reason could there be to be annoyed that more will be produced to satisfy demand?

 

CJI.

[rogerzilla]

1 minute ago, cctransuk said:

 

I simply don't understand this limited issue thing, unless one is buying as an 'investment'.

 

...... unless the thinking is that "I've got one on pre-order; (no guarantee nowadays); and you haven't, 'cos they've sold out".

 

What other reason could there be to be annoyed that more will be produced to satisfy demand?

 

CJI.

Resale value, or just whatever thrill people get from exclusivity.

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, rogerzilla said:

Resale value, or just whatever thrill people get from exclusivity.

 

First one - an investment, which has been denied; second one is exactly the attitude that I suggested - which equates to pure selfishness and spite!

 

CJI.

 

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by cctransuk

[Darius43]

Surely it’s the perceived exclusivity of a “Limited Edition” that yields its potential as an “Investment”.   With respect to the latter I don’t think model railway investment gains could ever be life changing in the same way as Del and Rodney’s lesser watch.

I have a non-sound version on order from the original batch to run on the layout - any appreciation in value is a bonus that is unlikely to be realised.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

 

[Robin Brasher]

There is only one prototype Deltic locomotive so I think it is a strange decision to limit the production to 500 models.  If the demand exceeds 500 it means that Hornby cannot produce any more while honouring their advertising.  It also leaves the door open to Bachmann producing another batch of Deltics. It is possible that Hornby originally made less than 500 models and is simply finishing its original production run. 

 

If Hornby is producing more than 500 Deltics it could discourage collectors from buying other limited runs like the six models of Flying Scotsman and the five models of A4s. 

 

I would like to see an end to limited runs as it puts unnecessary pressure on customers to order models as soon as they are announced and it stops Hornby from producing more runs without risking a loss of confidence from their customers.

[adb968008]

Seems to be a lot of people cannot think beyond £ and pence.

That says more about them, them, than those they despise.

 

So if they dont understand collectors, and its all about money, why not ask your spouses… how often do they buy clothes identical to their friends ?

 

Dare you suggest selling all those shoes, bags and dresses ?

and hope to Keep your model railway, and anatomy in tact after that conversation ?

 

What the contradiction is here, is those twanging harps are not interested in the value,

So why are they buying it ?

There is a perfectly good runnable model, been around for a decade and running on layouts around the country.

 

So why are people paying a £100+ premium, for a metal body loco in a dublo box ?

Weathered on a layout it will lose half its value in minutes, no one will know its metal, so this would seem non-sense, when they could  buy an equal detailed model for more than £150 less second hand ?

 

Modellers would do well not to discourage collectors, theres more of them, than you think, and if they exit the market, forget value… your manufacturers would be gone too.

 

I for one collect all kinds of Rubbish, I have over 4000 airline boarding passes, and nearly every rail ticket for every journey ive ever made, globally since the 1990’s..probably 3000+ there too).. anyone care to tell me what a set of crusty boarding passes is worth ? As its all about money apparently…

collectors collect for achievement, its primeval hunting, individuality, a trophy.
But if theres no chase, then why bother.. thats the risk with over producing.

 

investors arent collectors, they dont care about the item they are holding, only about inflating its price when sold. So they will flip it at the best oppourtunity…

the difference with a collector, is the collector will still keep it, if goes down in price, but equally if getting one is as easy as buying a mars bar.. then theres no rush and may just buy it in the future when the price goes down.

 

imagine if every friday, everyone in the country won the lottery, and got exactly half their money back.. how many people would play the next week knowing the result would be exactly the same ?

 

life, for some, isnt all about £ and p.

Edited June 30, 2023 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

Understanding collecting - which despite what they have said over the years is not exactly something which Hornby seem to  manage.  As 'adb968008' said it is rarely about value or price but is about completing a series or getting examples of etc.  I collect certain postcards and on the face, literally, of some of them you will see exatly teh same picture as on others and they were probably all printed by the same printer - but they have different names of issuers on the back.  

In most cases like that they are common issues from the 1950s and their value, or rather potential resale price, is measured in pence (in single fgures).  In the case of some other cards because of their rarity securing them to add to my collection meant paying a three figure sum in £s.   

 

 I also used to collect railway handbills and thei the prices varied not necessarily because of age or Pre--Grouping company but because of the event they were connected with.  Hence I don't have any about excursions to horse racing events (always sought after and fetching the highest prices) or football matches (also sought after) but I've got some lovely 19th century ones which only cost a few £s at auction.

 

Limited numbers of something can push up the price of some collectibles at certain times.  But collecting fashions change, collectors get older and pop ther clogs, and that affects what is on. the market    So when that happens prices fall because of theh laws of supply and demand.  But the only way that affects collecting is that at various times it will cost you more, or a lot less, to add certain things to your collection.  And Hornby Dublo - the Liverpool made sort - is a prime example of that  (as are Hornby Bulleid pacifics released in the main range).

 

And the price you get is only what two people are prepared to pay for something - until one of them drops out of the a bidding.

[stewartingram]

What about Limited Edition crisps and bars of chocolate?........

[adb968008]

58 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

What about Limited Edition crisps and bars of chocolate?........

Cadburys Orange twirl is too good to be limited.

 

But I miss Cadburys Spira.. I wish that would make a comeback.

[Flying Pig]

2 hours ago, stewartingram said:

What about Limited Edition crisps and bars of chocolate?........

 

Limited edition crisps is just an excuse to foist such horrors as Walkers "Builder's Breakfast" on us (basically, the eggs dominated the flavour profile in a quite unpleasant manner).

[Brian Indge]

Strangely enough, as of this evening, the Deltic sound fitted version has become available to preorder on the Hornby website but the non sound version is now no longer available.

[Vistisen]

On 30/06/2023 at 12:32, GordonC said:

 

How 'limited' do you consider it to be a 'limited edition'? There must be an awful lot of catalogue releases now which will be pretty 'limited' in production numbers too, so whats the difference - a bit of paper in the box for a certificate and does it really matter if that has 500 written on it or 1000? Is it wrong to increase production if they greatly underestimated demand and have loads of disappointed buyers - I dont see why when its probably over a year from delivery so the only people which could complain would be investors that want the limited numbers to pump up values.

I think the phrase 'limited edition' has lost its meaning now. When manufactures held the moulds in their own factoris and go a run off a few hundred units when the stocks were running low. Then a limited  edition meant something. These days every model is produced as a limited that is to say a fixed number run. So the phrase has lost its value

[andyman7]

On 28/06/2023 at 23:22, adb968008 said:

 

I like Dublo for the collectibility aspect, and its novelty value… its a premium priced product.

But Now its limited to as many as they can sell…

its gone mainstream.

 

To me Dublo was Quality not Quantity.

 

So if its just a £350 loco in a blue box, the i’m going to take the mug off my head and put this model back on the shelf, as theres nothing special about it now, if everyones going to be selling it, why rush ?

 

I understand why they did it, but there are multiple ways to do it (copy Bachmann, as they did it first anyway).

 

I wonder if the new CSM tool will be saying put everything in a blue box striped Dublo box and double the rrp?

 

 

 

 

I assume you mean the new release Dublo? The original Meccano models were indeed quality but they made a lot of them.

 

[andyman7]

2 hours ago, Vistisen said:

I think the phrase 'limited edition' has lost its meaning now. When manufactures held the moulds in their own factoris and go a run off a few hundred units when the stocks were running low. Then a limited  edition meant something. These days every model is produced as a limited that is to say a fixed number run. So the phrase has lost its value

The most extreme example being Wrenn models. In the late 1980s they began releasing a number of certificated 'Limited Editions'. After 1992 when the original firm closed down and accurate records of models actually made were compiled, it became apparent that late production (post-mid 80s) Wrenn was so limited that many of the so-called 'Limited Editions' had fallen well short of the planned number, so that if you had, for example, No.5 of 200, it could be that it was No.5 of maybe 45 actually made. Further to that, the production numbers of some of the regular items were miniscule - I recall from the figures in Maurice Gunter's book that in one case a regular catalogue release of one particular BR black liveried engine with a new number had a production run of....five. This boring black regular release loco was unsurprisingly catapulted towards the top of the most collectable Wrenn locos in the madness that followed.  

Edited July 2, 2023 by andyman7

[adb968008]

On 02/07/2023 at 16:34, andyman7 said:

The most extreme example being Wrenn models. In the late 1980s they began releasing a number of certificated 'Limited Editions'. After 1992 when the original firm closed down and accurate records of models actually made were compiled, it became apparent that late production (post-mid 80s) Wrenn was so limited that many of the so-called 'Limited Editions' had fallen well short of the planned number, so that if you had, for example, No.5 of 200, it could be that it was No.5 of maybe 45 actually made. Further to that, the production numbers of some of the regular items were miniscule - I recall from the figures in Maurice Gunter's book that in one case a regular catalogue release of one particular BR black liveried engine with a new number had a production run of....five. This boring black regular release loco was unsurprisingly catapulted towards the top of the most collectable Wrenn locos in the madness that followed.  

The smallest factory ready to run of a limited edition I have seen was 20… This being Bachmanns Great Gathering set of 6x A4’s in BR Green condition, priced at around £2000 at the time.

After that Ive seen Brawa do a run of 50 PKP 2-8-2 tender engines in Green and Black.

Limited Edition has lost its meaning except in Marketing spiel.

 

But in Hornbys cass, its becoming a mugs game as 3 times weve seen a limited edition announced, then increased because “we can”.

Theres no sincerity  in their messaging.

 

ive more faith in my pub calling last orders, and it being true than a Hornby limited edition being limited to what they initially say.

Edited July 4, 2023 by adb968008

[maico]

On 30/06/2023 at 12:48, Robin Brasher said:

There is only one prototype Deltic locomotive so I think it is a strange decision to limit the production to 500 models.  If the demand exceeds 500 it means that Hornby cannot produce any more while honouring their advertising.  It also leaves the door open to Bachmann producing another batch of Deltics. It is possible that Hornby originally made less than 500 models and is simply finishing its original production run. 

 

If Hornby is producing more than 500 Deltics it could discourage collectors from buying other limited runs like the six models of Flying Scotsman and the five models of A4s. 

 

I would like to see an end to limited runs as it puts unnecessary pressure on customers to order models as soon as they are announced and it stops Hornby from producing more runs without risking a loss of confidence from their customers.

 

Maybe it's 2000?  East coast, West coast in both sound and dcc ready versions 

Edited July 13, 2023 by maico

[GWR-fan]

Back in the late 1970's I had been an ardent fan of the Mini,  having had a string of them over the previous decade, including a Mk1 Cooper "S".  When BMC/Leyland Australia announced the final run of the Mini,  a 1275GT limited run, 750 in silver and 750 in gold,  I purchased a silver model.  It turned out to be a total lemon of a car with glue marked interior and an engine that overheated and was strangled by all the exhaust emission gear fitted.  I traded it in just four months later, totally disappointed with the model.  Well,  the production car sold so well that the company jumped on the bandwagon and produced another 750 "limited run" of each colour.  So much for a limited release production run of initially just 1500 cars.  At the time the car cost around $5000.00.  Fast forward to today and the car is worth around $25,000.00.

[E100]

Might be going a bit crazy here but I could have sworn I had pre-ordered R30297TXS on Hornby but now can't see it. Presume this is just me...

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, E100 said:

Might be going a bit crazy here but I could have sworn I had pre-ordered R30297TXS on Hornby but now can't see it. Presume this is just me...

Its Tuesday, by Friday it will be back again but R30297 will have disappeared.

Next week R30297TTS may make an appearance.

Then they may all dissappear, followed by a mass return with a price rise.

Then by christmas it may be in coke livery.

 

Unfortunately its lost credibility to me, its just a metal deltic in a blue box, any sense of being worth a “special” priced premium was lost with the multiple bites at the big cherry. These shenagins have wasted wasted any pretence of Dublo being a premium brand…

 

The 78xxx looks to be just as metal as a Dublo duchess, so your paying premium for the box at this point, and its not even a limited edition box it seems.
 

Bachmanns one will continue running on my layout, its a good model, they never pretended it was a limited edition, but they have ensured subtle differences to each run reflecting the changes in its life, and its cheaper, yet still in a blue box.

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by adb968008

[E100]

Yeah, I'm not overly disappointed. Apparently I can still order the DCC Ready version so may still proceed. I never got the Bachmann one as only just back into the hobby in the past couple of years or so.

 

Regarding the Dublo brand. The tenders being plastic have always been a let down for me. Personally, I don't really understand limited editions. Everything is a limited edition. I get for collectors there's the nice certificate but I certainly not the target market for it. I just buy it if I like it rather than because it's limited edition.

[cctransuk]

37 minutes ago, E100 said:

Yeah, I'm not overly disappointed. Apparently I can still order the DCC Ready version so may still proceed. I never got the Bachmann one as only just back into the hobby in the past couple of years or so.

 

Regarding the Dublo brand. The tenders being plastic have always been a let down for me. Personally, I don't really understand limited editions. Everything is a limited edition. I get for collectors there's the nice certificate but I certainly not the target market for it. I just buy it if I like it rather than because it's limited edition.

 

Hornby's use of a premium brand (and pricing) for metal bodied locos is somewhat disingenuous.

 

The reason for metal bodies being necessary is DCC and, in particular, DCC sound.

 

So much of the interior space within models is now being dedicated to (very light) electronic components that the only way to achieve acceptable weight / adhesion is to make the bodies from metal.

 

Don't believe for one moment that this is a nostalgic move back to the 'good old days' of cast metal models - it's all about compensating for the bulk of all that electronic 'gubbins'.

 

CJI.

[adb968008]

50 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Hornby's use of a premium brand (and pricing) for metal bodied locos is somewhat disingenuous.

 

The reason for metal bodies being necessary is DCC and, in particular, DCC sound.

 

So much of the interior space within models is now being dedicated to (very light) electronic components that the only way to achieve acceptable weight / adhesion is to make the bodies from metal.

 

Don't believe for one moment that this is a nostalgic move back to the 'good old days' of cast metal models - it's all about compensating for the bulk of all that electronic 'gubbins'.

 

CJI.

With steam, yes.

The deltic.. well several manufacturers are making diesels that weight over 500g with a plastic body…indeed I think that trend started with the Dapol Western a decade ago..

 

The Accurascale 37 is so heavy it could be used in self defence, two of them is the price of a single Hornby Deltic.

Quote

Don't believe for one moment that this is a nostalgic move back to the 'good old days' of cast metal models
 

 

lets not kid ourselves here, this model is only about this.

Had it been made from plastic for £320 it would have been laughed out of town.

As it is, its under the radar of modern image modellers, otherwise it would be getting more critiscm as its head and shoulder above any other rtr diesel in the market on price… you have to admire Hornby marketing on achieving that..

 

its the same reason why the New York yankees always win.. people are confused by the pin stripes.

 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by adb968008

[HExpressD]

43 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Hornby's use of a premium brand (and pricing) for metal bodied locos is somewhat disingenuous.

 

The reason for metal bodies being necessary is DCC and, in particular, DCC sound.

 

So much of the interior space within models is now being dedicated to (very light) electronic components that the only way to achieve acceptable weight / adhesion is to make the bodies from metal.

 

Don't believe for one moment that this is a nostalgic move back to the 'good old days' of cast metal models - it's all about compensating for the bulk of all that electronic 'gubbins'.

 

CJI.

I suppose chassis in plastic bodied models normally being mahoosive chunks of metal just isn't a thing then? Dublo is purely a marketing thing, case in point would be the MN, the Dublo and non-Dublo ones are spec-d similarly and both haul a great amount. The non-Dublo one is not lacking for not having a metal body. 

[Brit70053]

As a content owner of a Bachmann version of this loco, I've paid but casual attention to this topic, but I do have a question arising from ZR2498's post on 28th June, which has just taken my attention.

The last 'feature' listed on the advertisement reproduced in that post is 'Etched Nameplates'. As I've never knowingly seen nameplates on either the real locomotive or on any photograph of it, I'm wondering if I've missed something of its history or whether this is not an authentic detail being offered on the Hornby Dublo model.

              I photographed the painted name on DELTIC the other day just to reassure myself of the situation as in preservation and hopefully that *picture is attached.

               Can anyone say if the prototype has ever had separate name plates attached please ?

                Thanks in anticipation of any informative replies.

 

               Regards,

 

                              John

 

Ps I see that the photo has downloaded rotated from the original despite my efforts to alter the original to prevent this. My apologies.

 

  

 

.

[cctransuk]

4 minutes ago, Brit70053 said:

As a content owner of a Bachmann version of this loco, I've paid but casual attention to this topic, but I do have a question arising from ZR2498's post on 28th June, which has just taken my attention.

The last 'feature' listed on the advertisement reproduced in that post is 'Etched Nameplates'. As I've never knowingly seen nameplates on either the real locomotive or on any photograph of it, I'm wondering if I've missed something of its history or whether this is not an authentic detail being offered on the Hornby Dublo model.

              I photographed the painted name on DELTIC the other day just to reassure myself of the situation as in preservation and hopefully that *picture is attached.

               Can anyone say if the prototype has ever had separate name plates attached please ?

                Thanks in anticipation of any informative replies.

 

               Regards,

 

                              John

 

Ps I see that the photo has downloaded rotated from the original despite my efforts to alter the original to prevent this. My apologies.

 

  

 

.

 

They are probably referring to the kick-plates below the doors which, I seem to recall, had ENGLISH ELECTRIC cast into them.

 

CJI.