Hornby 2023 - Bluetooth decoders and control system

[adb968008]

22 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

 

 

 

 

But why do we want batteries in model trains? I'd get sick of charging them up. As I said before the great thing about model trains is that we can use what they run on to power them and they still look good and we don't need to worry about power reserves.

 

 

This is a good idea, combined with control from off track this would make sense.

I suspect its when, not if.

 

The days of wiring your house have passed, you need electricians just for the 12v leds in the ceiling which arent much difference.

 

At some point, someone in the civil service is going to choke at the idea of uncoordinated cable running and circuit building using sometime uncased transformers.

 

It’ll probably be an event like a fire from a DCC chip that triggers it.. followed by an investigation to dodgy wiring.

Weve seen several instances of melting bodies from chips going south. Indeed capacitors popping is another.

 

The hobby isnt immune, we thought standing at a train window was safe, until a Bulleid went through a red light at Wootton Bassett, and the consequential deep dive into the industry changed many more things, not just the event itself.

 

 

 

[RedgateModels]

8 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

 

The days of wiring your house have passed, you need electricians just for the 12v leds in the ceiling which arent much difference.

 

 

 

only in kitchens, bathrooms and garages. As long as you are not extending the ring main in other areas you can do the work yourself. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by RedgateModels
forgot garages

[meatloaf]

The Hornby mag video that was posted a few pages back was quite informative.

 

One thing i did pick up on tho was when he was talking about the sound files. He said they would be free - small pause - at launch.

 

I wonder iof they may become chargable

[DK123GWR]

51 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

But why do we want batteries in model trains? I'd get sick of charging them up. As I said before the great thing about model trains is that we can use what they run on to power them and they still look good and we don't need to worry about power reserves.

Off the top of my head:

It would be useful for temporary layouts (set-track on the floor of a holiday home, or on the kitchen table when space or circumstances prevent a permanent layout).

 

For university students, you could take a  small shunting layout with you without the need for a controller (space in both transport and accomodation can be limited), and without damage to the wiring rendering it useless for the rest of term (this has happened more than once).

 

It might also be useful to have battery powered locos available on (track powered) exhibition layouts when things go awry because you could keep trains running while fixing the electrics.

 

A fully battery powered exhibition layout would be quicker to assemble and dissasemble - get up later and get home sooner.

 

On DC layouts it would simplify the wiring required around stations and yards if the pilot could be fitted with battery power.

[lyneux]

1 hour ago, RedgateModels said:

 

I'm assuming the NCE protocol is closed ......

 

No, it's published (Cab Bus): https://dccwiki-prod1382-images.b-cdn.net/images/7/78/Cab_bus_protocol.pdf

 

EDIT: It looks like it is quite a 'chatty' protocol though with continual polling of the throttles: https://dccwiki.com/Cab_Bus

Edited January 11, 2023 by lyneux
Additional comments

[RedgateModels]

1 minute ago, lyneux said:

 

No, it's published (Cab Bus): https://dccwiki-prod1382-images.b-cdn.net/images/7/78/Cab_bus_protocol.pdf

 

so it's not beyond the realms of possibility for someone with the will (and skills) to come up with a cbus to Xbus interface, wonder if anyone at MERG would take it on .......

[TomScrut]

Further to the suggestion that a battery powered loco could be charged by the track, we would need to design our layouts and run our trains appropriately too in this respect. I don't think we would want to be putting much more current through the tracks than what they get at present. Therefore, I think we would need the loco to be on powered track more than 50% of the time. Whether that is more than 50% of the layout depends on how the layout is run.

 

Therefore I'd suggest that most plain track is powered and as @spamcan61 said, just leave the complex bits unwired. 

 

Depending on battery capacity (seconds or minutes?) and stop duration it could be in fiddle yards and stations only 

[lyneux]

10 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

 

so it's not beyond the realms of possibility for someone with the will (and skills) to come up with a cbus to Xbus interface, wonder if anyone at MERG would take it on .......

 

The design of both protocols is quite different but 'yes', could be done reasonably easily with an Arduino I think. At least they are both published.

 

Likewise it should be possible for Digitrax Loconet, although it requires a license and the signing of an NDA to obtain their specs. I think this would need to be a slightly different physical interface too as it is not based on RS485.

 

Guy

Edited January 11, 2023 by lyneux

[Coryton]

8 minutes ago, DK123GWR said:

On DC layouts it would simplify the wiring required around stations and yards if the pilot could be fitted with battery power.

 

Yes that's one I've been thinking of.

Could give a DC layout some important benefits that would otherwise need DCC, for a relatively small outlay.

 

I can also imagine the responses if battery powered locomotives had always been the case and someone was proposing DCC via powered track as a new idea:

- Are you seriously suggesting that we have to wire up an entire layout for power, not just the charging tracks?

- You couldn't trust the track joiners to carry current so you'd need droppers to every single piece of track. Who's got the time for that?

- Have you thought about how much current it would need to run several locomotives at once? You'd need pretty thick wires and it doesn't sound very safe having that much current flowing.

- What happens if there's a short circuit? You'd need a safety cut-out and then everything would just stop.

- How would you handle reverse loops?

- It would be a real hassle to keep the track clean so there's always good contact. What about track that's hard to reach?

- Why would anybody buy an expensive control station to make it all work when we have a perfectly good solution already?

- All this just so we don't have to worry about charging batteries?

- it sounds like a nice idea but if you think it through you'll realise that nobody is going to bother.

- Etc.

 

I think like most things in model railways, battery powered locomotives would be useful for some people and not for others.

[Legend]

2 hours ago, SeanTT said:

I contacted Simon this morning on the back of another email I sent last night and this is his reply:

 

From: Simon Kohler
Sent: 11 January 2023 09:17
To: Sean
Subject: RE: HM7000 Power Question

 

Dear Sean,

 

Thanks for your email.

 

Much depends on the size of the transformer ie amperage. 1amp maybe OK with sound but we cannot guarantee that hence focussing on non-sound.  There is a chance it would be OK but it can be marginal.

 

I hope that helps.

 

If you need more clarity please do not hesitate, ask.

 

Kind regards

 

Simon

 

From: Sean
Sent: 11 January 2023 08:51
To: Simon Kohler <Simon.Kohler@Hornby.com>
Subject: RE: HM7000 Power Question

 

Good Morning Simon,

 

Thank you for your prompt response and answering my question,

 

One more question if you can, If using HM7000 and a DC Controller or just the transformer with adapter will you be able to get sound from the locos?

 

In this video: https://youtu.be/h5kZ6wPnYYQ around the 10 minute 30 second mark the Hornby guy demonstrating says “you can use an analogue supply with our non sound decoders” so does this mean no sound if using DC/Analogue?

 

 

Kind Regards,

 

Sean

 

 

===============================================================

 

Ill probably go with non sound decoders and then look at reviews after its been released (heard May 2023) and see if others have had any issues with DC/Analogue and sound

 

Interesting clarification 

 

The guy in the video definitely emphasized HM7000 works on DC on non sound decoders . Simon clarifys it might work on sound depending on output

 

I run analogue , yes I'm a luddite.  I know its bluetooth and I can still operate a loco with a non sound decoder through my device , so it takes over from HM6000 which is also blue tooth .  But I'm not really interested in running my trains from a device . To me the major advantage would have been to run sound fitted blue tooth decoder locos alongside my analogue ones , without the need to go fully DCC. This seems not to be the case now . 

 

I will still keep an eye on it . When its released in Qtr 2 it would be good if someone could run a thorough review to see if sound will work on analogue .  I thought it sounded too good to be true.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Legend

[Pmorgancym]

28 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

Yes that's one I've been thinking of.

Could give a DC layout some important benefits that would otherwise need DCC, for a relatively small outlay.

 

I can also imagine the responses if battery powered locomotives had always been the case and someone was proposing DCC via powered track as a new idea:

- Are you seriously suggesting that we have to wire up an entire layout for power, not just the charging tracks?

- You couldn't trust the track joiners to carry current so you'd need droppers to every single piece of track. Who's got the time for that?

- Have you thought about how much current it would need to run several locomotives at once? You'd need pretty thick wires and it doesn't sound very safe having that much current flowing.

- What happens if there's a short circuit? You'd need a safety cut-out and then everything would just stop.

- How would you handle reverse loops?

- It would be a real hassle to keep the track clean so there's always good contact. What about track that's hard to reach?

- Why would anybody buy an expensive control station to make it all work when we have a perfectly good solution already?

- All this just so we don't have to worry about charging batteries?

- it sounds like a nice idea but if you think it through you'll realise that nobody is going to bother.

- Etc.

 

I think like most things in model railways, battery powered locomotives would be useful for some people and not for others.

I think it's going to be inevitable, people are more tine pressured, soldering is less of an everyday skill.  Popping a loco onto a wireless charging pad or charging rack at the end of a session is going to be no different than an ipad or phone every night which most people are used to.

[SeanTT]

7 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

Interesting clarification 

 

The guy in the video definitely emphasized HM7000 works on DC on non sound decoders . Simon clarifys it might work on sound depending on output

 

I run analogue , yes I'm a luddite.  I know its bluetooth and I can still operate a loco with a non sound decoder through my device , so it takes over from HM6000 which is also blue tooth .  But I'm not really interested in running my trains from a device . To me the major advantage would have been to run sound fitted blue tooth decoder locos alongside my analogue ones , without the need to go fully DCC. This seems not to be the case now . 

 

I will still keep an eye on it . When its released in Qtr 2 it would be good if someone could run a thorough review to see if sound will work on analogue .  I thought it sounded too good to be true.

You can buy a 4amp transformer from Hornby:

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/digital-15v-4-amp-transformer-p9300?modal=site-search

 

Ill likely go down this route with DC, this will be 4x the requirement and when I emailed SK saying if it would be suitable he said to try what I currently have and then if not use the P9300 Digital 15V 4 Amp Transformer as linked..

[Pmorgancym]

19 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

Interesting clarification 

 

The guy in the video definitely emphasized HM7000 works on DC on non sound decoders . Simon clarifys it might work on sound depending on output

 

I run analogue , yes I'm a luddite.  I know its bluetooth and I can still operate a loco with a non sound decoder through my device , so it takes over from HM6000 which is also blue tooth .  But I'm not really interested in running my trains from a device . To me the major advantage would have been to run sound fitted blue tooth decoder locos alongside my analogue ones , without the need to go fully DCC. This seems not to be the case now . 

 

I will still keep an eye on it . When its released in Qtr 2 it would be good if someone could run a thorough review to see if sound will work on analogue .  I thought it sounded too good to be true.

Really?  I read that as 1amp was marginal for sound.  Not that DC itself was

[Legend]

10 minutes ago, SeanTT said:

You can buy a 4amp transformer from Hornby:

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/digital-15v-4-amp-transformer-p9300?modal=site-search

 

Ill likely go down this route with DC, this will be 4x the requirement and when I emailed SK saying if it would be suitable he said to try what I currently have and then if not use the P9300 Digital 15V 4 Amp Transformer as linked..

 

Thanks Sean , but if I read that correctly that will be constantly supplying 15v to your track . Thats OK if you are only running HM7000 Decoder locos (or presumably other DCC locos) , but not if you want to mix analogue and blue tooth sound fitted locos . 

 

I had hoped to run analogue locos as normal  ie by increasing speed using control knob on controller , then when running HM7000 turn controller to max and use device to control loco. But as I said using a device for control is really not the main advantage to me . It was to get sound without the need to invest in a DCC system and chip all my other locos .

 

I suppose I could rig a P9300 up to power the track only when running HM7000 chipped locos but thats really not that convenient 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Legend

[Legend]

Just now, Pmorgancym said:

Really?  I read that as 1amp was marginal for sound.  Not that DC itself was

Yes sorry I meant 1 amp was marginal for sound , clearly the non sound decoders will work on less 

[Coryton]

9 minutes ago, Legend said:

Yes sorry I meant 1 amp was marginal for sound , clearly the non sound decoders will work on less 

 

I thought that there were (non Hornby) sound decoders that will run on DC (though obviously no sound when there isn't enough voltage to run the decoder).

 

Do they also require "high" currents to work?

[lyneux]

25 minutes ago, Legend said:

Yes sorry I meant 1 amp was marginal for sound , clearly the non sound decoders will work on less 

 

An indication of what the max current draw might be is probably to be gained by looking at what current the decoders are rated for. For comparison, Loksound v4 is 1A, v5 is 1.5A.

 

EDIT: Also, by way of comparison, the existing Hornby TTS Sound decoders are rated at 800mA.

Edited January 11, 2023 by lyneux

[SeanTT]

14 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

Thanks Sean , but if I read that correctly that will be constantly supplying 15v to your track . Thats OK if you are only running HM7000 Decoder locos (or presumably other DCC locos) , but not if you want to mix analogue and blue tooth sound fitted locos . 

 

I had hoped to run analogue locos as normal  ie by increasing speed using control knob on controller , then when running HM7000 turn controller to max and use device to control loco. But as I said using a device for control is really not the main advantage to me . It was to get sound without the need to invest in a DCC system and chip all my other locos .

 

I suppose I could rig a P9300 up to power the track only when running HM7000 chipped locos but thats really not that convenient 

I'm very new to railways and getting started with TT:120 so HM7000 with next 18-pin decoders in all my locos or 6pin for some of the shunters is what ill use and only use..

 

I've got a spare android tablet that I don't really use so ill set this up for my locos etc 

 

I'm only looking at a smallish layout, basically the 5 track packs with a few changes so only would be running 3-4 locos at a time at most so HM7000 should be fine for what I need/want

[KingEdwardII]

On 10/01/2023 at 07:31, leonk said:

there will have to be an android app.

Indeed - I can't see many people who have an Android phone going out and buying an Apple smartphone just for their model railway. I certainly would not.

 

 

Yours,  Mike.

[RedgateModels]

On 10/01/2023 at 08:21, AY Mod said:

 

 

[JSpencer]

Edit: in reply to various battery control posts.

 

I can imagine batteries rotting the insides of collectors models left in boxes for decades.

It already peeves me off to change batteries on the handful of coaches so fitted.

They pollute more. Especially the high capacity ones which are difficult to recycle.

 

With DCC control I only need one main circuit going from board to board. Then track, lighting, point motors etc are fed from that.

DCC concepts give me both DCC and manual operation (a switch on the side of the board) for point motors which avoids rushing back to the controler. A  far cry from cab control needing 100s of cables.

 

I do have some battery powered elements fitted to locos and coaches which charge from the rails. They take an awful long time to charge up. They don't hold their charge for long and they only fit inside items that are big enough to hold them. Batteries take up real estate better used for better internal detail. The Bachmann Quary hunslet would be a nightmare to adapt.

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by JSpencer

[Ron Ron Ron]

With due respect chaps, I think the battery power discussion belongs elsewhere.

It’s not part of this Hornby release and therefore only marginally relevant to this thread.

 

 

.

[Coryton]

5 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

With due respect chaps, I think the battery power discussion belongs elsewhere.

It’s not part of this Hornby release and therefore only marginally relevant to this thread..

 

It probably does merit a thread of its own, but I'd argue that the relevance is more than marginal.

 

Unless I've missed something, the only work that would be required to end up with a fully controllable battery powered engine would be to add one of the new decoders and connect it to a 12 V battery. (Where to put the battery and how to keep it charged is left as an exercise for the reader, but I'm assuming that there are at least some people reading this thread willing to go beyond buying Hornby products and just plugging them together).

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, KingEdwardII said:

Indeed - I can't see many people who have an Android phone going out and buying an Apple smartphone just for their model railway. I certainly would not.

 

 

Yours,  Mike.

It  quite clearly shows that it will be availble from Googleplay and Apple store

[KDG]

Advice please.

 

I get confused with the tech stuff. Bought a z21, but can't even cope with that.

 

If  I was to purchase 73109, which is sound fitted, and one lf these dongles, can I control the loco with sound features using by H&M 12v dc controller? (which Dad bought 50 years ago in a shop on Smithdown Lane)

 

Thanks