Hornby, A Model World. Series 2.

[ikcdab]

1 minute ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Episode 11 was released online right at the start to make up for the weeks delay in transmission.

Yes I thought I recognised it.  So nothing new for us to watch today then.  I have actually enjoyed the series so I miss it! 

[Legend]

11 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

Tonight's "Top 10" programme was full of inaccuracies. The Rovex later Triang Railways Princess being the most obvious, never having been made by Meccano or carrying the Hornby brand.  But it also gave the impression that Minic Motorways and Scalextric were made by rival independent companies when both were part of the Lines Bros group, and both ended up being made at different times in the Lines Bros Margate factory so prominently featured in the series.

 

The 007 Aston Martin and the success of Corgi completely whitewashed the fact that Corgi, the brand name used by tbe Mettoy company, was in competition with the Dinky Toys made by Meccano who also made Hornby Dublo. Corgi models had interiors, windows, and steering when Dinky Toys had none of those features and was another reason that Meccano went broke in 1964. 

 

The 1960s version of Rocket was made by Triang, but that didn't stop it being referred to as the "first Hornby Rocket". 

 

The 1920 O gauge clockwork loco was the only true Hornby item in that it was created by Frank Hornby and was made by the company that he founded namely Meccano. But even there the fact that Frank Hornby's educational toy was Meccano, and the Hornby O gauge tinplate railway system was derived from Meccano. IIRC, everything else in the "Top 10" came from the businesses who were competitors to Meccano and hence Hornby Dublo, namely Lines Bros Triang Railways and Scalextric brands, Ralph Ehrmann's Airfix, and Mettoy's Corgi. or from their successor companies or businesses which are the continuation of and direct descendants of Rovex, not of Meccano's Hornby and Dinky Toy businesses. The only connection with Frank Hornby is the Hornby name which was saved from oblivion by Lines Bros acquisition of the Meccano company and its Hornby Dublo and Dinky Toy branded ranges.

 

But why let factual accuracy get in the way of a good story. 

 

I'm sorry, but I do get very annoyed with the way that today's Hornby company seems to go out of its way to ignore, if not deny, its Rovex/Lines Bros/Triang Railways origins.

 

 

 

 I find red wine helps . After two glasses you really don't give an "iconic"

 

It does annoy me that history is being warped in such a way . We know , but maybe some poor student doing media studies in 10 years time is going to do a thesis on this .

 

The top 10 was a bit skewed anyway 

 

I get the Hornby clockwork 0-4-0 as that's what started it . But the Hornby Dublo Sir Nigel Gresley surely deserved a place as the first table top Hornby Dublo - and it was real Hornby ! I suspect it was omitted as they already had an A4 in the live steam section .  Surprisingly no Flying Scotsman (given that they seem to be producing it in every conceivable configuration) or HST  which must be the models that have sold by the shed load over the years !  Yes the Tri-ang  Princess certainly deserved its place .  Can't figure out why they majored on the Coronation , its just the latest iteration of the model , the last one of which was full length . Maybe its just pretty for the cameras , look its got stripes !

 

On the Airfix side , surprised no mention of the Spitfire , which I think after the Massey Fergusson Tractor and "Mayflower" was the first kit  and again must be the most produced Airfix kit. 

 

I will miss the program as its pleasant TV , but better with the wine . It could have been so much better. 

 

 

[RedgateModels]

37 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

 

On the Airfix side , surprised no mention of the Spitfire , which I think after the Massey Fergusson Tractor and "Mayflower" was the first kit  and again must be the most produced Airfix kit. 

 

 

 

 

Certainly was #1 son's first kit, it nearly made it onto the cover of BRM 🤣

 

 

Thanks Andy 🙂

Edited March 28, 2023 by RedgateModels

[HExpressD]

11 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

Personally.I wouldn't say that the TV series "... dramatically simplified the history", to me it's more like rewriting the history by omitting references to Triang and Lines Bros.

 

 

Series - Maybe - But then again the company history isn't overly important in a show ostensibly about modern design processes.

 

Hornby - Absolutely Not - If you think they are being weird about their history, pop into the Visitor Centre at Margate and read all about it/watch the documentary all about their history that plays on repeat in one of the rooms. 

[caradoc]

3 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

The problem the TV series has, is that Hornby has such a convoluted history, it would take an entire programme to explain

 

I agree! However, all they had to do is, rather than say, twice, 'the Hornby Princess', just say 'the Princess' (I accept that neither person who said that was a Hornby employee, but presumably someone told them what to say). 

 

 

[HExpressD]

14 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

(I accept that neither person who said that was a Hornby employee, but presumably someone told them what to say). 

 

But who's to say that the person who told them what to say was a Hornby employee also. 

[stephennicholson]

1 hour ago, HExpressD said:

But who's to say that the person who told them what to say was a Hornby employee also. 

I can only comment about the filming that I was present at (Bognor Regis MRC). There was no script, no Hornby employees, and just general guidance on what to discuss.

[chuffinghell]

Inaccuracies a side I still enjoyed the series and hope there is another planned

[James Makin]

I thought it was great, sad to see the last episode conclude!

 

As a casual viewer I didn't really pay attention to any mistakes, the only visual thing spotted was the Merchant Navy with the backwards tender, and surely no one really cares that much anyway! Possibly reflective of the habits of many my age but I watched it on the sofa while I had my laptop out editing some model photos, and had my phone plugged in charging next to me with social media/Whatsapp notifications popping up, to have Simon Kohler there fondling an old steamer made for a nice warming backdrop to a good evening in!

 

It's back to just C5's 'Traffic Cops' next Monday night when it comes to shows worth bookmarking...as wishful thinking lets just hope the upcoming final series of 'Inside the Factory' with our Lord Himself Gregg Wallace includes a tour of the Hornby factory...! 😄

 

Cheers

James

 

 

[Legend]

6 minutes ago, James Makin said:

 

 

It's back to just C5's 'Traffic Cops' next Monday night when it comes to shows worth bookmarking...as wishful thinking lets just hope the upcoming final series of 'Inside the Factory' with our Lord Himself Gregg Wallace includes a tour of the Hornby factory...! 😄

 

Cheers

James

 

 

 

He'll need to go to China (and possibly 5 different factories)

Edited March 28, 2023 by Legend

[Jol Wilkinson]

3 minutes ago, James Makin said:

I thought it was great, sad to see the last episode conclude!

 

As a casual viewer I didn't really pay attention to any mistakes, the only visual thing spotted was the Merchant Navy with the backwards tender, and surely no one really cares that much anyway! Possibly reflective of the habits of many my age but I watched it on the sofa while I had my laptop out editing some model photos, and had my phone plugged in charging next to me with social media/Whatsapp notifications popping up, to have Simon Kohler there fondling an old steamer made for a nice warming backdrop to a good evening in!

 

It's back to just C5's 'Traffic Cops' next Monday night when it comes to shows worth bookmarking...as wishful thinking lets just hope the upcoming final series of 'Inside the Factory' with our Lord Himself Gregg Wallace includes a tour of the Hornby factory...! 😄

 

Cheers

James

 

 

I don't think the Margate premises qualify as a factory any more, or did you envisage a trip to China?

[James Makin]

25 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

I don't think the Margate premises qualify as a factory any more, or did you envisage a trip to China?

 

Ah definitely China, and wouldn't it be fun to see it all happening! I must admit the UK doesn't even enter the mind when one thinks of model railway manufacturing these days 😄

[maico]

16 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

Tonight's "Top 10" programme was full of inaccuracies. The Rovex later Triang Railways Princess being the most obvious, never having been made by Meccano or carrying the Hornby brand.  But it also gave the impression that Minic Motorways and Scalextric were made by rival independent companies when both were part of the Lines Bros group, and both ended up being made at different times in the Lines Bros Margate factory so prominently featured in the series.

 

The 007 Aston Martin and the success of Corgi completely whitewashed the fact that Corgi, the brand name used by tbe Mettoy company, was in competition with the Dinky Toys made by Meccano who also made Hornby Dublo. Corgi models had interiors, windows, and steering when Dinky Toys had none of those features and was another reason that Meccano went broke in 1964. 

 

The 1960s version of Rocket was made by Triang, but that didn't stop it being referred to as the "first Hornby Rocket". 

 

The 1920 O gauge clockwork loco was the only true Hornby item in that it was created by Frank Hornby and was made by the company that he founded namely Meccano. But even there the fact that Frank Hornby's educational toy was Meccano, and the Hornby O gauge tinplate railway system was derived from Meccano. IIRC, everything else in the "Top 10" came from the businesses who were competitors to Meccano and hence Hornby Dublo, namely Lines Bros Triang Railways and Scalextric brands, Ralph Ehrmann's Airfix, and Mettoy's Corgi. or from their successor companies or businesses which are the continuation of and direct descendants of Rovex, not of Meccano's Hornby and Dinky Toy businesses. The only connection with Frank Hornby is the Hornby name which was saved from oblivion by Lines Bros acquisition of the Meccano company and its Hornby Dublo and Dinky Toy branded ranges.

 

But why let factual accuracy get in the way of a good story. 

 

I'm sorry, but I do get very annoyed with the way that today's Hornby company seems to go out of its way to ignore, if not deny, its Rovex/Lines Bros/Triang Railways origins.

 

 

 

Halfway through I was reminded of Dismaland, the temporary bemusement park organised by Banksy in Weston-super-Mare. A dystopian alternate reality...

Edited March 28, 2023 by maico

[Hroth]

48 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

I don't think the Margate premises qualify as a factory any more

 

They did get that 3D printer....

 

[F-UnitMad]

1 hour ago, James Makin said:

to have Simon Kohler there fondling an old steamer

What an awful word picture that conjures up for me!!! Am I the only one who finds him rather creepy??... 😱🤦‍♂️🙄

 

I couldn't even bring myself to buy a recent issue of RM because of a far-too-close-up photo in it of his grinning fizzog holding a TT:120 Flying Scotsman.

[Pint of Adnams]

5 hours ago, Legend said:

 

He'll need to go to China (and possibly 5 different factories)

And with any luck the Chinese will find a reason to detain him... 😷

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, Legend said:

 

He'll need to go to China (and possibly 5 different factories)

Only five?????   But maybe you aren't including their mates just down the road doing a spot of moulding work for one of them while their own machines are busy on work for somebody else?

[Pacific231G]

On 27/03/2023 at 22:28, Phil Parker said:

 

The full range of logos can normally be found on the banner at the back of the Hornby exhibition stand. And there are train set in the range with Tri-ang on the box. The TV series has dramatically simplified the history, that’s not the same thing.

Actually Phil this IS  a factual series and not light entertainment: that is a real genre distinction.  

It's not the inevitable simplification that concerns me but but the way that the programme makers appear to be simply parroting whatever Hornby is saying about itself.  What any of the contributors say in their interviews is up to them but ensuring that what is said in the voice-over narration is accurate, even if simplified, is the sole responsibility of the programme maker. Even for a fairly sympathetic portrait, I can't imagine making a single programme, let alone two series, about a company without doing my own research into both it and its history. 

I don't know whether Hornby did actually vet the scripts or were given editorial approval - the shennanigans around transmission of the first programme  in the series did rather suggest that- but that's certainly not how factual television in this country, even at the lightest end of that spectrum, is supposed to be made. Section nine of the Ofcom Broadcasting Code is very clear "9.1: Broadcasters must maintain independent editorial control over programming."

It's not actually Hornby I'm concerned about, they've managed to get a load of free publicity and good luck to them (but they'd have got that from a more objective series too),  but I am concerned about Channel 5 and its commissioning/editorial  process.

Did we ever really get to the bottom of what happened around programme 1?

Edited March 29, 2023 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

21 hours ago, James Makin said:

 

Ah definitely China, and wouldn't it be fun to see it all happening! I must admit the UK doesn't even enter the mind when one thinks of model railway manufacturing these days 😄

Not even Peco?

[Phil Parker]

31 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

Actually Phil this IS  a factual series and not light entertainment: that is a real genre distinction.  

Interesting - presumably there is a legal definition to this then. I'm curious to see how that would work.

 

32 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

I can't imagine making a single programme, let alone two series, about a company without doing my own research into both it and its history. 

If they did, they would have found it's a can of worms and decided to leave well alone. At least I would. How you explain the history to the intended audience (not us) without them all turning off would be a challenge.

 

34 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

I don't know whether Hornby did actually vet the scripts or were given editorial approval

In my experience, from the cutting room floor, the only scripts are for the voiceover. No one told me what to say when the camera was pointed at me.

 

35 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

I am concerned about Channel 5 and its commissioning/editorial  process.

This would be the channel that in its early days featured many "documentaries" on lap dancers? Except that the Hornby series is on Yesterday, owned by BBC Studios, so I'm not sure what the relevance to this programme is.

[AY Mod]

4 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

If they did, they would have found it's a can of worms and decided to leave well alone. At least I would. How you explain the history to the intended audience (not us) without them all turning off would be a challenge.

 

I've now got visions of Eamonn Andrews being resurrected to do "This is your Company" with Phyllis from Westwood House's factory canteen saying "Do you remember when you said you'd put the office telephone number on that model by mistake?" followed by Shiny Shoes Nat explaining why Design Clever was such a good idea.

[Hroth]

Perhaps Yesterday could commission "Hornby:The Real Story", presented by James May, tracing the history of Hornby/Hornby Dublo/Triang/The Merger/Triang Hornby and back to "Hornby" in several episodes.

 

Mr May could end the last programme by getting hold of a new limited edition diecast Flying Scotsman, ripping the box off and binning it before running the loco ragged on his train set...

 

People would still grumble!

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Hroth

[chuffinghell]

2 minutes ago, Hroth said:

....presented by James May......

 

 

Great idea, however if they then did another series and replaced James May with Paddy McGuinness I would sell all my model railway stuff, throw my layout in a skip and never touch the hobby again

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Pacific231G said:

I am concerned about Channel 5 and its commissioning/editorial  process.

 

54 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

This would be the channel that in its early days featured many "documentaries" on lap dancers?

And several other programmes which if not called a documenary would be classed as porn.

But a completely different company now, being part of Viacom a huge multinational media company

 

54 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

Except that the Hornby series is on Yesterday, owned by BBC Studios, so I'm not sure what the relevance to this programme is.

🙂

Edited March 29, 2023 by melmerby

[Pacific231G]

59 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

Interesting - presumably there is a legal definition to this then. I'm curious to see how that would work.

 

If they did, they would have found it's a can of worms and decided to leave well alone. At least I would. How you explain the history to the intended audience (not us) without them all turning off would be a challenge.

 

In my experience, from the cutting room floor, the only scripts are for the voiceover. No one told me what to say when the camera was pointed at me.

 

This would be the channel that in its early days featured many "documentaries" on lap dancers? Except that the Hornby series is on Yesterday, owned by BBC Studios, so I'm not sure what the relevance to this programme is.

There may not be a legal definiton of factual v light entertainment but they are distinct genres. I spent most of my career as a producer and director in various factual genres in the BBC and I definitely wasn't making light entertainment (a very different skillset)  though I hope my programmes were entertaining (or at least engaging) as well as informative. 

 

The convolutions that have led to the present incarnation of Hornby Hobbies are indeed a can of worms as indeed is true of most of the toy and hobby industry (As a freelance, I did some productions for the BTHA in the late 1990s so heard quite a lot of it from the horses' mouths including those around Lines Bros and Airfix) I too wouldn't dream of trying to explain it to an audience for a programme like A Model World but I would want to know it well enough myself to ensure the factual accuracy of my scripts .

 

It was the voiceover scripts I was referring to. The interviews and actuality were of course unscripted (at least I certainly hope they were!)

My mistake about he channel but the fact that Yesterday is owned by BBC Studios, a commercial subsidiary of the BBC, makes it, if anything, worse. The move of programme making to BBC Studios  was not exactly uncontroversial.

The series was actually made for Yesterday by Rare TV who, on their website, describe their work  as "Intelligent, Entertaining, Factual" 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Pacific231G