Hornby, A Model World. Series 2.

[andyman7]

On 27/03/2023 at 20:58, caradoc said:

I've just watched this programme rewrite model train history - The 1950s Hornby Princess? After that it hardly seems worth mentioning the Bulleid Pacific on the turntable with the tender the wrong way round. Unbelievable. 

It was actually the Rovex Princess but for the general public it really isn't going to make any difference to start unpicking the long and convoluted history of that model. And that's before someone inevitably brings up the 'other' Hornby Princess, the 1930s O gauge one.

On 27/03/2023 at 22:06, RJS1977 said:

And apparently Hornby made Minic Motorways too .... :-(

Again - they did, or at least Lines brothers did. The semantics don't matter at this level of light entertainment

On 27/03/2023 at 22:08, GoingUnderground said:

I'm sorry, but I do get very annoyed with the way that today's Hornby company seems to go out of its way to ignore, if not deny, its Rovex/Lines Bros/Triang Railways origins.

 

I could probably bore the socks of anyone regarding this convoluted history (and frequently do so within the rarified pages of RMWeb). But I found the episode pretty inoffensive in terms of its errors. Probably the most annoying was the backward tender on the Merchant Navy.

On 27/03/2023 at 22:20, Hroth said:

I'd venture to suggest that the first Hornby Rocket was the 3.5" gauge live stream one of 1979. I've still got one, I wish I'd bought a couple of coaches to go with it at the time!

 

Interestingly, it was also the first Hornby Live Steam model, so there's something else to complain about when Simon said the 2003 A4 was the first ever Hornby Live Steam engine 🙂 

 

On 27/03/2023 at 22:57, melmerby said:

"Scalextric was bought by the company that is now known as Hornby Hobbies"😄

Just sounds over convoluted.

But absolutely true!

On 28/03/2023 at 08:36, Phil Parker said:

The problem the TV series has, is that Hornby has such a convoluted history, it would take an entire programme to explain, and of interest to very, very few people, most of whom will already know it from the various books on the subject. For the sake of simplicity, the writers of the series, who are not Hornby, have sidestepped the whole thing. Those of us who know more of the history just have to sit back and chuckle at the errors and ommissions (Did you forget the live Steam Rocket Simon?) and let it go. This is light entertainment, not the Open University.

Indeed. And just to show my own pedantry, when Simon was comparing the old and new Coronation locomotives and picked up the former saying 'this is the one we made in 1970' I said to the telly 'no - that's the 1983 Tender Drive reissue'. I shall of course be writing to the Radio Times and my MP.😉

[Legend]

20 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

 

The series was actually made for Yesterday by Rare TV who, on their website, describe their work  as "Intelligent, Entertaining, Factual" 

 

 

Och well , one out of threes not bad

 

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

This would be the channel that in its early days featured many "documentaries" on lap dancers? Except that the Hornby series is on Yesterday, owned by BBC Studios, so I'm not sure what the relevance to this programme is.

 Any idea if its on catchup ?

[maico]

28 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

There may not be a legal definiton of factual v light entertainment but they are distinct genres. I spent most of my career as a producer and director in various factual genres in the BBC and I definitely wasn't making light entertainment (a very different skillset)  though I hope my programmes were entertaining (or at least engaging) as well as informative. 

 

The convolutions that have led to the present incarnation of Hornby Hobbies are indeed a can of worms as indeed is true of most of the toy and hobby industry (As a freelance, I did some productions for the BTHA in the late 1990s so heard quite a lot of it from the horses' mouths including those around Lines Bros and Airfix) I too wouldn't dream of trying to explain it to an audience for a programme like A Model World but I would want to know it well enough myself to ensure the factual accuracy of my scripts .

 

It was the voiceover scripts I was referring to. The interviews and actuality were of course unscripted (at least I certainly hope they were!)

My mistake about he channel but the fact that Yesterday is owned by BBC Studios, a commercial subsidiary of the BBC, makes it, if anything, worse. The move of programme making to BBC Studios  was not exactly uncontroversial.

The series was actually made for Yesterday by Rare TV who, on their website, describe their work  as "Intelligent, Entertaining, Factual" 

 

 

 

Were you involved in this 3 part series?

 

 

[Legend]

3 minutes ago, maico said:

 

Were you involved in this 3 part series?

 

 

 I have them on DVD . Excellent program , although I can see how the gen public might glaze over in parts . There was also one about Hornby Dublo 

[Phil Parker]

32 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

There may not be a legal definiton of factual v light entertainment but they are distinct genres. I spent most of my career as a producer and director in various factual genres in the BBC and I definitely wasn't making light entertainment (a very different skillset)  though I hope my programmes were entertaining (or at least engaging) as well as informative. 

 

The convolutions that have led to the present incarnation of Hornby Hobbies are indeed a can of worms as indeed is true of most of the toy and hobby industry (As a freelance, I did some productions for the BTHA in the late 1990s so heard quite a lot of it from the horses' mouths including those around Lines Bros and Airfix) I too wouldn't dream of trying to explain it to an audience for a programme like A Model World but I would want to know it well enough myself to ensure the factual accuracy of my scripts .

 

It was the voiceover scripts I was referring to. The interviews and actuality were of course unscripted (at least I certainly hope they were!)

My mistake about he channel but the fact that Yesterday is owned by BBC Studios, a commercial subsidiary of the BBC, makes it, if anything, worse. The move of programme making to BBC Studios  was not exactly uncontroversial.

The series was actually made for Yesterday by Rare TV who, on their website, describe their work  as "Intelligent, Entertaining, Factual" 

 

 

 

I would suggest that the makers have aimed more towards entertainment in these series than factual. Endless manufactured jeapordy, Simon and Montana on fairground rides, that's all entertainment.

 

Were there any factual errors? You can argue that the Princess should be a Rovex product, but then the voiceover has to explain who Rovex are, or we just consider that Hornby = Hornby group which is made up of a lot of other companies past and present.  The main error I could see in the last show was Simon saying Live Steam was the first steam model made by Hornby, ignoring the 3 1/2 inch Rocket. Who gets to shout "Oy Kohler, NO!"? Not the single person camera team, they won't know the full history of the company. When looking at the footage, the producers might not be any the wiser either. Some reasearch into the company is fine, but it's hardly fair to expect them to know the full product line for 100 years.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Pacific231G said:

My mistake about he channel but the fact that Yesterday is owned by BBC Studios, a commercial subsidiary of the BBC, makes it, if anything, worse. The move of programme making to BBC Studios  was not exactly uncontroversial.

You are now treading on the politcal footpath with decisions forced on to the BBC by Parliament.

 

 

[Darius43]

The determination of people not to enjoy this lightweight yet enjoyable TV series astounds me.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

 

[Ian Hargrave]

5 minutes ago, Darius43 said:

The determination of people not to enjoy this lightweight yet enjoyable TV series astounds me.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

 

 
You correctly identify the series as lightweight. Therein lies our difficulty in coming to terms with it on this forum. In the main,we consider ourselves as heavyweights with “expert” knowledge of the subject matter. To a certain degree I think you have to suspend disbelief,sit back and enjoy the feel good factor that it generates. Yes,I watched and enjoyed it bearing all of that in mind though I’m almost shamefaced to come out of the closet and admit it .

 

Now  on with Tim Dunn’s Architecture The Railways Built…..a series in entirely in another league.

[C126]

29 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

... Tim Dunn’s Architecture The Railways Built ...

 

Am I alone in hoping Mr @timdunn will one day do a supplementary series, "The Architecture the Railways Built and Our Leaders Destroyed", describing how useful much would have been to-day in reducing the effect of L.G.V. deliveries and the motor-car?  Perhaps he would not be so relentlessly cheery though.

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by C126
Added user-name.

[Darius43]

14 minutes ago, C126 said:

 

Am I alone in hoping Mr Dunn will one day do a supplementary series, "The Architecture the Railways Built and Our Leaders Destroyed", describing how useful much would have been to-day in reducing the effect of L.G.V. deliveries and the motor-car?  Perhaps he would not be so relentlessly cheery though.

 

Yes.
You are alone in your hope.

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Darius43

[Darius43]

32 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 
You correctly identify the series as lightweight. Therein lies our difficulty in coming to terms with it on this forum. In the main,we consider ourselves as heavyweights with “expert” knowledge of the subject matter. To a certain degree I think you have to suspend disbelief,sit back and enjoy the feel good factor that it generates. Yes,I watched and enjoyed it bearing all of that in mind though I’m almost shamefaced to come out of the closet and admit it .

 

Now  on with Tim Dunn’s Architecture The Railways Built…..a series in entirely in another league.

I suppose some might consider me to be a heavyweight.  Unfortunately that has nothing to do with model railways 😳.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Darius43

[F-UnitMad]

1 hour ago, Darius43 said:

The determination of people not to enjoy this lightweight yet enjoyable TV series astounds me.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

 

I suspect it's the same people who walk right on past layouts at Shows, because the subject is Foreign/Not their Era/Can't relate to it etc etc.... 🙄😉

I mentioned this Hornby program to a fellow modeller recently, and to his reaction of raised eyebrows & groans told him to sit back & treat it like a comedy. I've found the parts about aircraft more interesting, possibly because I just "like aircraft" but don't model them or have a lot of in-depth knowledge.

I certainly would prefer this program over that awful Layout Building Challenge nonsense - to me much of that really did make a mockery of the hobby. A non-enthusiast friend of mine who mentioned that program to me was most interested to find out what railway modelling is really about for most of us - the accurate depiction of railways either past or present, and was impressed by a photo of one of my O Scale Pannier Tanks, depicting as close as I could an engine in the last months of it's service in late 1965. A far cry from train sets, gimmicks & hand-knitted trees..... 😡

[Jeff Smith]

Yes, the building challenges were pretty awful and probably not too inspirational to budding modellers.  This programme is very like a number of fly-on-the-wall types, I'm thinking of those behind the scenes at airports, police, freight airlines, etc. or any activity that the producers feel may be of interest to general viewers.  The knowledgeable in those fields are probably equally dismissive.

 

The hobby is a broad spectrum and following the Hornby TT:120 thread has highlighted to me how many are happy with buying Hornby track and/or running temporary set-ups.

[Not Jeremy]

2 hours ago, Darius43 said:

The determination of people not to enjoy this lightweight yet enjoyable TV series astounds me.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

 

They are enjoying it really - just in their own “special” way….

[Pacific231G]

2 hours ago, Darius43 said:

The determination of people not to enjoy this lightweight yet enjoyable TV series astounds me.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

 

You may be even more astounded to hear that I did generally enjoy this series though it is what I term a "watch and wipe" and not a keeper. That doesn't though alter the fact that, in terms of objectivity and the integrity of factual programming, it also worried me. Lightweight is fine but facts are still facts.

 

The "forgetting" of the 3.5 inch Rocket has made me think of seeing if mine still works (It's been a rather large ornament on a high shelf in my railway room for several years) I did get a more sturdy gas tank for it soon after acquiring it.

I also wondered about the 00 scale live steamers. They were operating (as usual) at Ally Pally. The reasons why they weren't a suitable product for Hornby made sense but I couldn't help wondering if the idea would suit a more niche manufacturer.  Would the currents available in DCC power be enough to turn sufficient water into steam?

Edited March 29, 2023 by Pacific231G

[TJ52]

Unfortunately to those who know the history of Triang-Rovex, Hornby Dublo and the rest of the story its a bit like a historian watching a 'popular' TV history programme and wincing at some of the faults or omissions.  We need to remember that the target audience doesn't really care and that it makes little  difference to their enjoyment or otherwise of the programme. 

 

The Architecture of the Railways is a different animal as it has no trade axe to grind and is simply an enthusiastic expert sharing his passion in a most watchable fashion.

 

We're  probably lucky to have both.

 

Terry

[Legend]

2 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

 

I certainly would prefer this program over that awful Layout Building Challenge nonsense - to me much of that really did make a mockery of the hobby. A non-enthusiast friend of mine who mentioned that program to me was most interested to find out what railway modelling is really about for most of us - the accurate depiction of railways either past or present, and was impressed by a photo of one of my O Scale Pannier Tanks, depicting as close as I could an engine in the last months of it's service in late 1965. A far cry from train sets, gimmicks & hand-knitted trees..... 😡

 Completely agree . I felt it said there’s not enough interest in model railways so we need to tart it up with Martians , Volcanoes etc etc.  it really was not typical of model railways with all the false jeopardy . It’s actually a very relaxing all encompassing hobby . We don’t need Martians !  That program was so poor I stopped watching it .  Let’s make something out of this welly boot ….oh come on ! 
 

In that respect Hornby a Model World was vastly superior and I will miss it . It did show some great layouts and why people were passionate about the hobby . It could have been better historically though and the scant regard for facts and stupid mistakes - valve gear on the Flying Scotsman , Clan line with tender the wrong way ,  was annoying  even if it’s supposed to be entertainment .  It would have been as good if they’d just got it right ,  the famed red boxes came from Tri-ang ! 
 

But I do hope there is a series 3 . 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Legend

[Pint of Adnams]

4 hours ago, melmerby said:

You are now treading on the politcal footpath with decisions forced on to the BBC by Parliament.

 

 

Sounds just like the history of British railways then?

[Jol Wilkinson]

33 minutes ago, TJ52 said:

Unfortunately to those who know the history of Triang-Rovex, Hornby Dublo and the rest of the story its a bit like a historian watching a 'popular' TV history programme and wincing at some of the faults or omissions.  We need to remember that the target audience doesn't really care and that it makes little  difference to their enjoyment or otherwise of the programme. 

 

The Architecture of the Railways is a different animal as it has no trade axe to grind and is simply an enthusiastic expert sharing his passion in a most watchable fashion.

 

We're  probably lucky to have both.

 

Terry

 How do we know what the target audience is? Has anyone from the programme or Hornby defined that?

 

There seems to be an assumption that it isn't, in part at least, aimed at model railway enthusiasts. Or perhaps just RMWeb members, with their wealth of knowledge.

[Hroth]

@Legend Red boxes are ok (if they've got white stripes), HD two rail came in that sort of box.  Its just that I am conditioned to expect three rail locos in blue and white striped Hornby Dublo boxes...

 

"Modern" Hornby doesn't seem to understand this!

 

[Jeff Smith]

For anyone interested in diecast car history as well as Hornby history 'Little Car' has done some YouTubes about Matchbox, Dinky, Corgi, Hotwheels, Hornby, Scalextric, Tonka, etc. (just search Little Car).  The same person as 'Big Car' has done plenty of car histories - very interesting and nostalgic!

[Pacific231G]

9 hours ago, maico said:

 

Were you involved in this 3 part series?

 

 

No, but thanks for sharing it and I'll look forward to watching it (apart from the over use of the effects catalogue in the opening sequence!). It's a direct to video rather than a broadcast production so aimed at a more specialist audience than either the current Hornby series or the Great Model Railway Bake Off.  The empty factory in Margate looks just as sad though. 

In exploring our hobby in a way that brings it to a general audience I don't think anything has done better than the BBC Timeshift "The Joy of Train Sets" (which was far more about model railways than train sets) but that strand is both entertaining and informative about almost every subject it tackles.

[Geep7]

One thought did occur to me about the Merchant Navy with it's tender the wrong way round. Could it have been done that way to show off the rear cab detail, but they just didn't film it, or a shot of it was edited out. I also wouldn't put it past them to do it as some sort of wind up, just to see how many people comment about it on the internet.

[jwealleans]

13 hours ago, Legend said:

I felt it said there’s not enough interest in model railways so we need to tart it up with Martians , Volcanoes etc etc.

 

We're getting OT here, but I spent a weekend at Hartlepool Show last year watching two of the former challenge layouts, now fully completed, entertaining families with rocket launches and synchronised funfair train rides. Some of them had undoubtedly come just to see those layouts.   At Harrogate Show a couple of weeks ago, a small boy, seeing two of the team wearing their competition T shirts, asked who had made the rocket which launched and how it worked (and was delighted to be able to meet both the people responsible).

 

It may have been the same frothy, superficial nonsense as the Hornby series to some (and some of it was dreadful) but if it sparks an interest and gets people going to shows,clubs, or just building things on their own then I think it's to be applauded.

Edited March 30, 2023 by jwealleans

[RedgateModels]

13 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

 

We're getting OT here, but I spent a weekend at Hartlepool Show last year watching two of the former challenge layouts, now fully completed, entertaining families with rocket launches and synchronised funfair train rides. Some of them had undoubtedly come just to see those layouts.   At Harrogate Show a couple of weeks ago, a small boy, seeing two of the team wearing their competition T shirts, asked who had made the rocket which launched and how it worked (and was delighted to be able to meet both the people responsible).

 

It may have been the same frothy, superficial nonsense as the Hornby series to some (and some of it was dreadful) but if it sparks an interest and gets people going to shows, clubs, or just building things on their own then I think it's to be applauded.

 

Oh agreed and for those who chose to knock the show, please don't forget that some RMwebbers were also team members. @noiseboy72 and team brought the James Bond Muddle & Go Nowhere layout to the Mansfield Show and it was a big hit, but then our target audience is families not armchair modellers 😉

Edited March 30, 2023 by RedgateModels