Ouroborus Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 7 minutes ago, adb968008 said: What dates did valley lines livery run through ? Valley Lines operated 96 to 2001, but you can find examples in the livery much later. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pillar Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 My T&W PTE set arrived yesterday. It looks like a really nice model, but haven't got a suitable decoder to test run it yet. A few observations: - The orange door warning lights are painted on the EFE model and not lit with LEDs. I think the Realtrack ones were illuminated? They definitely are on their 156s. - It looks as if (fingers crossed...) conversion to P4 or EM should be pretty straightforward. There is a lot of room between the axleguards to accept wider wheelsets. The powered and unpowered axle assemblies also seem to be fixed in place by screws accessible from the underside of the chassis, so hopefully may be removable without much dismantling. Not sure what the axle diameter is though, or whether the axles are split or solid. I can't make out any wiper pickups to the wheels, so I suspect the axles may be live. - There seems to be some level of springing provided for the axles to take up irregularities of the track, although its quite stiff. Time will tell how well this works in practice. The axle assemblies seem to be a lot chunkier and more intrusive to the underframe than the Realtrack ones (which I believe also had springing or compensation?) - The instructions don't show how to remove the bodies. Granted, this isn't necessary for decoder fitting, but a lot of people, including me, will want to fill the seats with passengers. The only screws I can see seem to be for the motor mounts and decoder cover, so perhaps the bodies are held on by the dreaded clips. Can't say I'm looking forward to finding out for certain... Cheers, Liam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium JDW Posted February 17, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2023 The door light weren't LEDs on the Realtrack ones. The Realtrack ones did have some very delicate springs on the blocks that the wheels are mounted in. Those blocks are secured from above by a single screw, if I remember correctly. Very easy to damage the springs when dismantling. On the Realtrack ones (which we seem to be assuming this one is closely related to) the body is quite a tight fit but pulling the lower sides outwards and lifting up is the way to remove the body if I remember rightly, starting at the inner end. There are clips along the lower edges. It might not lift straight up, but need tilting and joggling to get around some of the electronics and cab interior. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold jonnyuk Posted February 17, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 17, 2023 they look good but the efe livery application looks sloppy in places. i really would like the GWR version but the weathering puts me off. i might nip to my local shop tomorrow and take a look 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Alan Oliver Posted February 17, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 17, 2023 I received the Regional Railways 144 today, going to tackle the dodgy weathering later. It does however do a lot of wheel spinning don’t know if it needs running in or it’s too light. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobR Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Modelrail says of this model 'Formerly produced under the Realtrack Models banner ( and maufactured by Rapido Trains )' March page 6. Rob 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_crisp Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 14 hours ago, Pillar said: My T&W PTE set arrived yesterday. It looks like a really nice model, but haven't got a suitable decoder to test run it yet. A few observations: - The orange door warning lights are painted on the EFE model and not lit with LEDs. I think the Realtrack ones were illuminated? They definitely are on their 156s. - It looks as if (fingers crossed...) conversion to P4 or EM should be pretty straightforward. There is a lot of room between the axleguards to accept wider wheelsets. The powered and unpowered axle assemblies also seem to be fixed in place by screws accessible from the underside of the chassis, so hopefully may be removable without much dismantling. Not sure what the axle diameter is though, or whether the axles are split or solid. I can't make out any wiper pickups to the wheels, so I suspect the axles may be live. - There seems to be some level of springing provided for the axles to take up irregularities of the track, although its quite stiff. Time will tell how well this works in practice. The axle assemblies seem to be a lot chunkier and more intrusive to the underframe than the Realtrack ones (which I believe also had springing or compensation?) - The instructions don't show how to remove the bodies. Granted, this isn't necessary for decoder fitting, but a lot of people, including me, will want to fill the seats with passengers. The only screws I can see seem to be for the motor mounts and decoder cover, so perhaps the bodies are held on by the dreaded clips. Can't say I'm looking forward to finding out for certain... Cheers, Liam If it helps I've converted one of "the originals" to EM using dcc concepts 10.5mm wheels. They are split axles so just chopped mine in half and used just the live wheels (insulated went on wagons). I'm currently not entirely sure the ride height on mine is right as it looks a little low and is something I'm going to check out. Hopefully this Web page works https://loco-updates.uk/class-144/index.htm This guy has some inspirational lighting projects and one day I'm going to copy him! (Well try too!) The photos show some useful inside shots as well as how to improve lighting. Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mevaman1 Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 All of the conjecture about ownership of tooling doesn’t really matter. The key thins are ‘is the model good enough for me’ and ‘will I buy one’. I am hoping for more liveries in future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted February 19, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 19, 2023 18 minutes ago, mevaman1 said: All of the conjecture about ownership of tooling doesn’t really matter. Really? So, *if* Realtrack have been treated badly in this affair and that impacts their financial position, potentially meaning we get less from them, that doesn’t matter? Roy 2 14 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neil Posted February 19, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 19, 2023 5 hours ago, mevaman1 said: All of the conjecture about ownership of tooling doesn’t really matter. The key thins are ‘is the model good enough for me’ and ‘will I buy one’. I am hoping for more liveries in future. I think it does. One of the big benefits of our hobby is that it allows us to escape from the realities of the big nasty world outside the railway room, even if only for a while. This is good for our health and wellbeing. If (and it is only an if) dodgy practises come to light then our enjoyment of the hobby can become tainted and the benefits of putting worldly troubles to one side compromised. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs233 Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 (edited) How are people finding the unit on third radius corners? Seems due to the light weight it struggles a little Edited February 19, 2023 by cs233 Typo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Alan Oliver Posted February 19, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 19, 2023 Seems to wheelspin a bit on straight track, don’t know about points or curves Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhydgaled Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 (edited) On 19/02/2023 at 16:23, Neil said: One of the big benefits of our hobby is that it allows us to escape from the realities of the big nasty world outside the railway room, even if only for a while. Not for long in this case for me - the big nasty world outside came crashing down onto my layout as soon as I tried to couple the DMS and DMSL of my shiny new ValleyLines Pacer. The 8-pin electrical coupling is angled upwards and therefore doesn't line up with the 8 little holes on the other carriage - so the two won't go together. I showed my mechanically-minded brother who said that, even if I'd received one which wasn't broken, he didn't think the coupling was very robust and would soon break if one was to couple/uncouple it often. I've not had a model with an electrical coupling between coaches before, so I don't know if the lights on the dummy car are supposed to work when not coupled to the motor car (the head/tail lights on the old-tool Bachmann 158s are certainly supposed to work on both cars without being coupled, but then they don't have an electrical connection). If they are supposed to work without being coupled to the motor car, then the dummy car lights are another thing that is broken on mine. For something that cost me £212.45 I expected to have knocked off or broken several tiny seperately fitted detail parts by now, but the only thing that fell off is the hook from one of the tension lock couplers - which I have put back on ready to return the model. This Pacer is very disapointing for the price, the fact you get a full interior / the motor is hidden being the one big win I can see. That aside, it seems we are being asked to pay for things like sound (I think I read that there is a speaker in the thing somewhere) and interior lighting which cannot be taken advantage of without futher expense converting to DCC (or a stayalive of some sort for the lights). I tried to turn the lights off with the switch underneath but that only took out the directional lighting - the interior lighting still flashed on and off as I turned the power dial... Maybe I'd keep it if it had been sold at the £170 price tag of the FirstGW-liveried example on the RealTrack website, since nobody is likely to do a ValleyLines Pacer in 00 again, but even that would be a bit expensive for me. Edited February 22, 2023 by Rhydgaled 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 (edited) On 17/02/2023 at 21:40, RobR said: Modelrail says of this model 'Formerly produced under the Realtrack Models banner ( and maufactured by Rapido Trains )' March page 6. Rob I can see why they make this assumption BUT the model has 'nothing' to do with Realtrack Models, even though it bears a striking resemblance on certain detailed components and compromises that they we made on our Class 144 / 143 over 12 years ago. As before its a real shame that with some simple research this model could have been a stunner, but there is no excuses for obvious errors and mistakes, such as: Incorrect bus seating layout with missing seats & partitions. No dummy engine and underfloor equipment on non powered car (Just a blank area) DCC Fitted speaker which is so bad there is hardly any sounds due to its poor design. Unadjustable 'Bright' internal lights. Weird DCC layout for cab lighting. Incorrect passenger doors with & handrails. Wrong cab layout with two drivers seats. Edited February 19, 2023 by charliepetty 15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted February 20, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 20, 2023 (edited) Just to add on what weve seen already, I went a little deeper under the hood today… If the Dapol 59 and Hattons 66 were cousins, then the Realtrack 143 and EFE 143 are really twins. its harder finding the differences, than it is to find things the same, but differences there are… Rectangle at frame level on 3rd window from the rear has been removed. The EFE seats are somewhat less detailed… the circuit board is upgraded and better realtrack efe.. note this odd stepped console in the centre of the drivers desk, and the firebottle is omitted… now just for fun, I fitted the Realtrack body to the EFE chassis… its a perfect fit. inside the body the tooling marks are identical… look at the raised outlines… even the fitting holes for the gangway… The chassis itself is the same, but with modifications, the motor cradle for the Realtrack design is still present, but instead the model uses twin motors to each axle. The positions for the screws holding the coach floor weight are in different locations… ive seen and handled thousands of models in my time, and not since the Replica /Dapol dispute of the HEA wagon in the 1990’s have I ever seen such close relationships between a model. This is imo an apples to apples comparison, with a few tweaks to the chassis and electrics to bring it more current and upto date.… even the old loos look the same.. not that passenger could see as both dont have a door way to enter ! But wait.. the retaining lugs in the weight are different.. The Russians once said imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, when comparing the il62 to the vc10… whilst the two planes look similar, its clear one is inspired by the other, but when you scratch the surface, just like Concorde and the Tu144, its clear each was its own unique work for a substantial part. But what we have here is a B52 and a Tu4…, or perhaps a SAMC built MD80… looking at these two models, whilst with tweaks and upgrades, they are twins… slight differences but imo the same parentage. Edited February 20, 2023 by adb968008 5 1 7 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, adb968008 said: Just to add on what weve seen already, I went a little deeper under the hood today… If the Dapol 59 and Hattons 66 were cousins, then the Realtrack 143 and EFE 143 are really twins. its harder finding the differences, than it is to find things the same, but differences there are… Rectangle at frame level on 3rd window from the rear has been removed. The EFE seats are somewhat less detailed… the circuit board is upgraded and better realtrack efe.. note this odd stepped console in the centre of the drivers desk, and the firebottle is omitted… now just for fun, I fitted the Realtrack body to the EFE chassis… its a perfect fit. inside the body the tooling marks are identical… look at the raised outlines… even the fitting holes for the gangway… The chassis itself is the same, but with modifications, the motor cradle for the Realtrack design is still present, but instead the model uses twin motors to each axle. The positions for the screws holding the coach floor weight are in different locations… ive seen and handled thousands of models in my time, and not since the Replica /Dapol dispute of the HEA wagon in the 1990’s have I ever seen such close relationships between a model. This is imo an apples to apples comparison, with a few tweaks to the chassis and electrics to bring it more current and upto date.… even the old loos look the same.. not that passenger could see as both dont have a door way to enter ! But wait.. the retaining lugs in the weight are different.. The Russians once said imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, when comparing the il62 to the vc10… whilst the two planes look similar, its clear one is inspired by the other, but when you scratch the surface, just like Concorde and the Tu144, its clear each was its own unique work for a substantial part. But what we have here is a B52 and a Tu4…, or perhaps a SAMC built MD80… looking at these two models, whilst with tweaks and upgrades, they are twins… slight differences but imo the same parentage. That is more or less our findings, but: All the rivets in the bodyshell have been made finer. All the rivets on the roof have been made finer. The body fixings have been altered, but 4 are exactly the same. The coach rear in exactly the same but the coupling is totally different. The chassis is a redesign with modern electrics and DCC features, shame about drivers cab light! How can this be on a 'New Model' In 2012 we had full underfloor safety labelling etc, but in 2023 we have nothing. As I said before, this should have been a show stopper for modern units, but sadly not, I suggest trying to change the speaker for one that works better/louder. I did, what a nightmare, 6 screws, resoldered wires and some filing to get it in to the ill designed space. 'Should we have to do this' Fitted it with our Legomanbiffo/dckits Regional Railway sound decoder with the York-Leeds destination announcements, that sound ok now with a £2.00 speaker not the 20p one. PPS Photo of the cab interior below. Edited February 21, 2023 by charliepetty 4 4 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted February 21, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2023 (edited) I’m not convinced the rivets are any different myself, but I did find 1 rivet different, Realtrack has 1 less… Edited February 21, 2023 by adb968008 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyneux Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 (edited) 25 minutes ago, adb968008 said: I’m not convinced the rivets are any different myself, but I did find 1 rivet different, Realtrack has 1 less… You know what that makes you, don’t you? 🤣 Wear it as a badge of honour! Means you care… Edited February 21, 2023 by lyneux 1 15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ruggedpeak Posted February 21, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2023 My understanding of the point of the EFE brand is to make older models using other people's tooling, at arms length from the main Bachmann brand. Whether this is quite what some of us think is appropriate is another personal matter. If these things are selling clearly Bachmann have no issues with it. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said: My understanding of the point of the EFE brand is to make older models using other people's tooling, at arms length from the main Bachmann brand. Whether this is quite what some of us think is appropriate is another personal matter. If these things are selling clearly Bachmann have no issues with it. The Gate stock is entirely new. Doubtless someone obtained the DJM tools as he was finished and they have appeared under EFE. While Kernow certainly let EFE use their tools, and then there were reboxed Heljan items. This is an oddity. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 20 minutes ago, JSpencer said: This is an oddity. Unfortunately I suspect it's a variation on the "process" whereby the DJM tooling became "available". I have total sympathy for Charlie et al here, and the dismay at EFE not following the advice of the late Georgios Panayiotou "if you're going to do it, do it right". 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted February 21, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, ruggedpeak said: My understanding of the point of the EFE brand is to make older models using other people's tooling, at arms length from the main Bachmann brand. Certainly it looks the same but I’m not sure it is 100% someone elses tooling, it might be someone elses design, duplicated and modified with trivial aesthetic differences in a new tooling…adding 1 rivet on each side of just 1 roof panel is not a coincidence imo. The definitive answer would be Realtrack making some more of their own, if the EFE mods are present, QED, if not… QED again. Of course if challenged, the factory could rustle up pictures of two sets of toolings or one. i’m thinking more along the lines of lego bricks myself. They look identical, anyone makes them, now, but it was a protected design until it expired, then several companies started making copies. Its an interesting precedent thats been set in our hobby, i’m not sure ive seen this before, aside of the Replica/Dapol HEA wagon in the late 1986, and that went to legals at the time. I seem to recall a duplicate tooling was made for each later. http://www.replicarailways.co.uk/menusep5/menucomhist We don't know the back story to know if its appropriate here or not. That EFE has made it, we as customers have to assume its ok. We only know there are differences of opinion from the original comissioner, its their decision if to accept it, challenge it or just make their displeasure heard. it does make me wonder what else is in the efe pipeline… 14xx, Snowploughs ?.. could it mean others decide to do the same and we see a Hornby ICI hopper for instance ? It would be interesting if someone grabbed some auto ballasters and made their own copy off it though. What its not doing though, is what it should…. Drawing attention to the finesse of the model, and choice of prototype… but then if you do.. oh the weathering .. Edited February 21, 2023 by adb968008 3 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ruggedpeak Posted February 21, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2023 1 hour ago, adb968008 said: Certainly it looks the same but I’m not sure it is 100% someone elses tooling, it might be someone elses design, duplicated and modified with trivial aesthetic differences in a new tooling…adding 1 rivet on each side of just 1 roof panel is not a coincidence imo. The definitive answer would be Realtrack making some more of their own, if the EFE mods are present, QED, if not… QED again. Of course if challenged, the factory could rustle up pictures of two sets of toolings or one. i’m thinking more along the lines of lego bricks myself. They look identical, anyone makes them, now, but it was a protected design until it expired, then several companies started making copies. Its an interesting precedent thats been set in our hobby, i’m not sure ive seen this before, aside of the Replica/Dapol HEA wagon in the late 1986, and that went to legals at the time. I seem to recall a duplicate tooling was made for each later. http://www.replicarailways.co.uk/menusep5/menucomhist We don't know the back story to know if its appropriate here or not. That EFE has made it, we as customers have to assume its ok. We only know there are differences of opinion from the original comissioner, its their decision if to accept it, challenge it or just make their displeasure heard. it does make me wonder what else is in the efe pipeline… 14xx, Snowploughs ?.. could it mean others decide to do the same and we see a Hornby ICI hopper for instance ? It would be interesting if someone grabbed some auto ballasters and made their own copy off it though. What its not doing though, is what it should…. Drawing attention to the finesse of the model, and choice of prototype… but then if you do.. oh the weathering .. Agree with most of your comments except this one "we as customers have to assume its ok" No we don't. I'm not going to go off the deep end and threaten never to buy Bachmann products again (that would terrify them I'm sure!!) but I'm afraid it has tainted the Bachmann brand a little for me. I may be entirely wrong about the situation but the available evidence and silence from EFE suggests something is not quite right. It could easily be sorted out..... 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 (edited) Charlie has said Realtrack are making a new 143 with a different manufacture, an implication from that is that the old tooling is no longer required and whether that resulted in a misunderstanding or not the old tooling has no doubt been tweaked in the same way as the Gate stock albeit that was a far more satisfactory result. Edited February 21, 2023 by Butler Henderson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted February 21, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, ruggedpeak said: Agree with most of your comments except this one "we as customers have to assume its ok" No we don't. I'm not going to go off the deep end and threaten never to buy Bachmann products again (that would terrify them I'm sure!!) but I'm afraid it has tainted the Bachmann brand a little for me. I may be entirely wrong about the situation but the available evidence and silence from EFE suggests something is not quite right. It could easily be sorted out..... But you dont know. We don't know whats between the layers from the retailer, back to the factory, comissioners, designers, architects, tooling manufacturer, product assembley line… we don't know any of it, we dont know the contract in place or its-terms, there could be several companies involved.. we don't know. We dont need to know. But as a consumer you cannot walk the street avoiding Tescos cornflakes because they look identicalish to Kelloggs. As a consumer, its our choice to take sides, boycott or support, but you have to have faith in the system that what your buying or not buying is right… theyve come through customs, gone to the shelves and retailers are selling them. If Realtrack, in an official capacity, feels they have a grievance, they need to go the correct legal routes for recourse, prove it, and get recompense etc. If not, bad blood in the water has potential to reverse flow back the other way from EFE and say they are damaging their sales... I fully agree, its very unusual but as a consumer its not our fault, we are not responsible so we shouldn't be afraid. i’m sympathetic to Realtracks comments, and what I look at in front of me, leans their direction, but cant form a balanced view on whats known so far, as not much is known… so as a consumer I have to trust that honesty and integrity has taken place, but that somewhere in this an unhappy outcome may have occurred, but thats for those parties to resolve. It would be nice to know its been made with Realtracks blessing, if that is the case, so far EFE hasnt suggested its needed, neither has Realtrack, if you read between the lines. Neither has Rapido, who acknowledges their involvement in Newsletter 10, in 2017.. Quote Realtrack's previous DMUs, the Class 143 and Class 144 Pacers were also a product of our design department and we're very proud of them. https://myemail.constantcontact.com/Rapido-News-UK-Vol--10.html?soid=1101318906379&aid=6dazJANxFxE#class142 We cant judge EFE, they may just have been opportunistic, these could have turned up in someone elses box, we just dont know.. and more surprises may yet follow. Edited February 21, 2023 by adb968008 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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