Model Railway .stl file resources?

[Giles]

I can't help thinking that for an stl to be worth a significant amount, it has to be a fully detailed model in the proper sense, and therefore one that can be utilised in any size, and is fundamentally future proof because of its accuracy. This means it has had a vast amount of hours spent on it, and therefore it's creator is invested in it. However, it is very likely that its intrinsic value comes nowhere near that of the time spent on it......

 

I have drawn up two locos to the best of my abilities, and each has taken quite a few hundred hours. The result is I can print nice locos, but I'm not tooled up to anything remotely commercial, so that's of extremely limited value, and if anyone else produced them for me, I should make a small amount of pocket money at best - if that.... (being realistic)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course the other aspect is that it can be both tedious and stressful dealing with your own drawings and prints. The idea of administering someone else's is just anathema!

[rue_d_etropal]

 

All my designs pas initial checking on Shapeways, and That is one feature that is useful. Any one who just does designs then tried to sell them is someone I would avoid. 

What I have noticed here is that there are quite a few people who want to get into 3d printing but have not got the design skills, and there are a few who do their own designs and do a few prints. 

Another question, how many people buy or subscribe to digital magazines, without knowing what is going to be in them.? You can not see everything before buying , although sometimes there might be a summary or sample. 

When it comes to accuracy, then you are opening up a big can of worms, given how much adjustment has to be made to cope with some scale/gauges. For standard gauge that is something we often overlook, but it is even worse for narrow gauge. I started out doing some WDLR designs for a WW1 project. I opted to model in 1/35 th scale as that meant 16.5mm was pretty close to scale, but when I then got asked to resize models, wagon chassis widths had to be increased to cater for out of scale track gauges of OO,9 and O16.5. Even O14 could be a bit tight. 

So making compromises is very much part of our hobby, and I have found that most people are more interested in having something even if it is not quite accurate rather than nothing. It is that market I have aimed at, but I do try to get designs as close as physically possible. If I spent even longer on designs and had even better scale drawings to work from then I might be able to get closer, but would that extra effort pay off. When it comes to having models in different scales, then adjustment have to be made, such as wall and rod thicknesses. I have managed to now build in some automation in code for designs, so that I can just alter scale, but still sometimes get errors when they are system checked.

I had a quick through my catalogue of designs and found that I have over 700 individual designs for coaches and railcars and that is just for British standard gauge, and that is then duplicated across several different scales. Now by my calculation that is not much per design for what I would want for collection.

Another idea I had was to put all STL files on CD/DVD disc, but even when zipped they would require quite a few discs.  I would still want committment to buy from enough to bring in same amount, but it is an option, and would require a lot of work on my part. I would not want to do it piecemeal, unless I divided up the collection into groups.

 

[nick_bastable]

9 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

 

Another idea I had was to put all STL files on CD/DVD disc, but even when zipped they would require quite a few discs.  I would still want committment to buy from enough to bring in same amount, but it is an option, and would require a lot of work on my part. I would not want to do it piecemeal, unless I divided up the collection into groups.

 

a 64GB  USB key is faster to write and costs about  £6 to £7    CD/DVD are rarely fitted to new machines

Edited March 14, 2023 by nick_bastable
pps

[njee20]

 

59 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

 

 

I had a quick through my catalogue of designs and found that I have over 700 individual designs for coaches and railcars and that is just for British standard gauge, and that is then duplicated across several different scales. Now by my calculation that is not much per design for what I would want for collection.

Another idea I had was to put all STL files on CD/DVD disc, but even when zipped they would require quite a few discs.  I would still want committment to buy from enough to bring in same amount, but it is an option, and would require a lot of work on my part. I would not want to do it piecemeal, unless I divided up the collection into groups.

 

Well you suggested £100k as a price tag, so it’s £142 per design, with respect I still think that’s probably out by a factor of 100 or so! I agree that CD would be mad. Flash drive immeasurably easier.

 

I’m not sure about the comparison to  magazines, are you suggesting a sort of Patreon model where you pay £x a month and get an STL, which may be either be a cow or an A4…? 

[drduncan]

With regard to valuing an STL file, I suggest we look at the wargaming community. 
 

A perusal of https://www.wargaming3d.com/product-tag/napoleonic/

shows that you can get a battalion package consisting of between 6 and 12 different figure designs for $17 to $20. A 36 sting battalion in traditional metal figures will cost c£55-60 depending on manufacturer. Additionally the approx $20 outlay on the STL package might allow the construction of many battalions representing a significant saving for the modeller compared to a traditional approach.

 

This suggests to me that the pricing of the STL is not at all proportional to the effort that went into it. Also, that the pricing is based on volume sales - something probably not applicable to a relatively small uk model railway market. It also indicates to me that the pricing is also not related to a comparable kit product that requires some finishing (ie the metal war games figures are unpainted).

 

So what? All this leads me to think that STL pricing probably should be below £20, possibly significantly less. Conversely, selling 3D prints rather than the STLs probably will command significantly more - and possibly (but not necessarily probably) have a greater market all other things being equal.

 

Duncan
 

 

 

 

[jaym481]

If I understand Shapeways' checking process, it simply determines whether a model is printable. In other words things like wall thicknesses and such. It doesn't do anything to determine whether the model can fit on a chassis - either a salvaged RTR chassis or perhaps an etched one. From the buyer's perspective it's a "scratch aid" and a bit of a gamble. Items that are a gamble tend to rarely command top money. 

 

The "design" aspect is really how much effort the .stl creator puts in to making the print viable for the end user. The design of the coach or wagon itself is to be credited to the original designers who did so for the railways. Where the .stl "designer" makes his bones is in whether the final output is viable as is, or needs a lot of work to get to the point where it will be worth puting on a layout. Some modelers love that sort of challenge, but even they don't expect to pay new kit or RTR prices for a coach body, let alone more than what a Roxley (for example) etched kit goes for. 

 

The wargame comparison above is a good one. The producer doesn't look to recoup his hours of labour with a single sale, but by pricing the product where it's affordable to a broader audience, and not expensive enough to make it worth the effort to pirate (which is going to happen - welcome to the digital reality), the .stl producer can still make money. Unfortunately wargame figures are a more viable product for bulk production than obscure GWR wagons, so that business model won't translate directly.

[Giles]

I'm no accountant,  nor have any expertise in that sort of area, but I would have thought that a £100K investment should be expected to yield around a minimum of £5k a year profit (that's a 20 year pay-back at zero inflation) , hands off as it were.... and of course all printing/production/labour costs over that - inferring quite a high annual turnover to yield such a profit. I don't know what percentage shapeways gives the designer.

I may well be completely wrong as its really not my area, which is why I'm not wealthy!

 

Presumably if the collection is being offered at £100K it is already providing a steady income, which is great.

 

I think what I was getting at with accuracy  is that once you have an accurate CAD model, you can  modify it to different scales or gauges, whereas if it is compromised initially, then it is less useful for any other purpose. However, it certainly is time consuming! 

[woko]

1 hour ago, Giles said:

I'm no accountant,  nor have any expertise in that sort of area, but I would have thought that a £100K investment should be expected to yield around a minimum of £5k a year profit (that's a 20 year pay-back at zero inflation) , hands off as it were.... and of course all printing/production/labour costs over that - inferring quite a high annual turnover to yield such a profit. I don't know what percentage shapeways gives the designer.

I may well be completely wrong as its really not my area, which is why I'm not wealthy!

 

Presumably if the collection is being offered at £100K it is already providing a steady income, which is great.

 

I think what I was getting at with accuracy  is that once you have an accurate CAD model, you can  modify it to different scales or gauges, whereas if it is compromised initially, then it is less useful for any other purpose. However, it certainly is time consuming! 

 

That made me chuckle when put like that Giles none of us are ever gunna get rich making trains!!! Good job its a passion and not a livelihood :)  

 

PS. I still would love to see some of this huge collection printed, proof is in the pudding! :) 

 

 

[monkeysarefun]

I've discovered when I posted a couple of model pics in a facebook group that many  in the community expect something for nothing, going by the demands of "post the STL?!" like seagulls flocking over chips (maybe thats just Facebook though...).

I do have a heap of models I made using photogrammetry available for download for free on sketchfab but discovered that some expect you to supply a 24/7 helpdesk service to help them rescale or solve issues with their printer and so on, then get shirty when you ignore them, even though they got the file for nothing.

 

My  solution was to hand them over to a bloke who has a full-colour printer, he sells printed colour models of them on his website and I get a small commission. Definitely isn't enough to retire on but it does make use of the files that would otherwise be gathering dust on my harddrive.

 

  The printer does a pretty good job on them by the way, you can almost read the inscriptions and the weathering is exactly as per the original!...

 

[woko]

9 hours ago, monkeysarefun said:

I've discovered when I posted a couple of model pics in a facebook group that many  in the community expect something for nothing, going by the demands of "post the STL?!" like seagulls flocking over chips (maybe thats just Facebook though...).

I do have a heap of models I made using photogrammetry available for download for free on sketchfab but discovered that some expect you to supply a 24/7 helpdesk service to help them rescale or solve issues with their printer and so on, then get shirty when you ignore them, even though they got the file for nothing.

 

My  solution was to hand them over to a bloke who has a full-colour printer, he sells printed colour models of them on his website and I get a small commission. Definitely isn't enough to retire on but it does make use of the files that would otherwise be gathering dust on my harddrive.

 

  The printer does a pretty good job on them by the way, you can almost read the inscriptions and the weathering is exactly as per the original!...

 

 

 

These models look fantastic

[JCL]

On 15/03/2023 at 04:20, woko said:

 

That made me chuckle when put like that Giles none of us are ever gunna get rich making trains!!! Good job its a passion and not a livelihood :)  

 

PS. I still would love to see some of this huge collection printed, proof is in the pudding! :) 

 

 

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. While it would be great to be paid enough for the files to make a living, it's never going to happen. When I've put files up here for free in the past, I'm not even paid a compliment! 🙂

 

Although sites like Cults doesn't do much in the way of model railways, maybe now is the time to start a trend by putting a few up there, telling people on here they're available and seeing what happens. You'd probably be better off putting up models that are more popular (there's a reason why it feels like Hornby creates a new A4 every other year). Then Cults can take care of the sales and downloads. Thingiverse, as far as I'm aware (I've not logged in for a while), is only for giving away files for free.

 

I've said to Woko in the past, that if he ever puts his models for sale online, I'd certainly be up for buying some!

[Carlislecitadel2]

I agree with JCL, I too would like to see some of Woko’s files becoming available. Realistically, I doubt the commercial path is going to work beyond something like Cults3d where designers can set a value on what they upload or can be generous enough to make it freely available. I like to thank those designers on Cults3d and Thingiverse for their generosity if they make their designs free to others.

[KeithHC]

Just a random thought. Can you copyright a design. It is possible to add text etc to a design therefore this could give some protection. One for the lawyers to think about.

 

Keith

[rue_d_etropal]

I think one of the problems faced is that many designers don't put enough designs out there. I have been going through my catalogue, and after cross checking estimate there are over 600 individual coach/railcar designs, just for British standard gauge in each scale. Most of my designs are done in at least 6 different scales, with adjustments made to handle minimum and reasonable wall and rod thicknesses.  

I have not started looking through my locos, narrow gauge and non British prototypes yet. 

By covering such a wide range I have found that interest to buy my models comes from various directions, and it has certainly been worth a lot more than pocket money  over past few years. 

Now as I have mentioned I want to make those designs available to others, so they can choose where to get their printing done. Initially I thought a group could take over, but I have a feeling many in the hobby are either not prepared to take that on or not capable of doing so and want someone else to do the hard work.

So I looked at another way.Remember I want some financial renumeration .

One feature of Shapeways allows for downloads, but ther is no option to have a payment required, but I have started downloading files myself, mainly because they are then zipped. It would then be possible to group the files into categories and save them to DVD or CD. Copies could then be made by one of the many companies offering that service, and packaged. I would limit number of copies to 1000, with no more issued, strictly limited edition. Depending on number of designs in category I would set a price, and only when I have enough confirmed orders via something like Kickstarter, would I have discs produced and sent out. As for what people did with those designs, I am not bothered but I would take no responsibility.All my designs have passed initial checking on Shapeways, so there should not be any big problems 

Talking of big. Obviously size of some larger scale designs might be an issue, although I do know of someone who has a modified printer which can print Gauge 2 bogie coaches. 

Not sure which designs I would release first, but my London Met/District ones would make a good set. There are over 100 designs, mostly in the 6 scales, and if I could get the 1000 interests then I would only be looking at about £15 per disc. For a variety of reasons, I would only post to UK, but obviously I could not stop anyone then sending on to anyone outside the UK. So for that much cost per design  would be less than 15 pence, assuming only interesting in one scale. 

 

[cctransuk]

53 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

I think one of the problems faced is that many designers don't put enough designs out there. I have been going through my catalogue, and after cross checking estimate there are over 600 individual coach/railcar designs, just for British standard gauge in each scale. Most of my designs are done in at least 6 different scales, with adjustments made to handle minimum and reasonable wall and rod thicknesses.  

I have not started looking through my locos, narrow gauge and non British prototypes yet. 

By covering such a wide range I have found that interest to buy my models comes from various directions, and it has certainly been worth a lot more than pocket money  over past few years. 

Now as I have mentioned I want to make those designs available to others, so they can choose where to get their printing done. Initially I thought a group could take over, but I have a feeling many in the hobby are either not prepared to take that on or not capable of doing so and want someone else to do the hard work.

So I looked at another way.Remember I want some financial renumeration .

One feature of Shapeways allows for downloads, but ther is no option to have a payment required, but I have started downloading files myself, mainly because they are then zipped. It would then be possible to group the files into categories and save them to DVD or CD. Copies could then be made by one of the many companies offering that service, and packaged. I would limit number of copies to 1000, with no more issued, strictly limited edition. Depending on number of designs in category I would set a price, and only when I have enough confirmed orders via something like Kickstarter, would I have discs produced and sent out. As for what people did with those designs, I am not bothered but I would take no responsibility.All my designs have passed initial checking on Shapeways, so there should not be any big problems 

Talking of big. Obviously size of some larger scale designs might be an issue, although I do know of someone who has a modified printer which can print Gauge 2 bogie coaches. 

Not sure which designs I would release first, but my London Met/District ones would make a good set. There are over 100 designs, mostly in the 6 scales, and if I could get the 1000 interests then I would only be looking at about £15 per disc. For a variety of reasons, I would only post to UK, but obviously I could not stop anyone then sending on to anyone outside the UK. So for that much cost per design  would be less than 15 pence, assuming only interesting in one scale. 

 

 

It is clear that you are giving this matter serious thought, but I still doubt that you are going to make any significant money by making your designs available to a wider public.

 

I would not underestimate the time and effort that you have devoted to designing these models but, even at £15.00 per disc, I feel that potential buyers will be wary as to the quality of the finished prints - a matter entirely out of your hands. The other factor is choice of subject - you may have 100 MET / DISTRICT designs in six scales but, realistically, how many of these would the average modeller use themselves - and that's before they factor in the cost of printing and the uncertainty as to ultimate model quality.

 

What you have to offer is intellectual property, which is notoriously difficult to market. I know; I have a similarly extensive range to yours - but of transfer sheets designs. I am under no illusions as to the value of those designs as a stand-alone package.

 

John Isherwood,

Cambridge Custom Transfers.

[MJI]

One thing to consider, is resin or filament STLs, resin can print better if sacrificial components are added, I will be doing this for some wagons.

[chris p bacon]

7 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

All my designs have passed initial checking on Shapeways, so there should not be any big problems 

 

Anything can pass SW initial checking, I had a few items on there which passed checking but didn't print well. The fact you've stated "Should not be any big problems" means to me that you're not that confident they're bug free.

 

The reality is that you've got lots of STL's on SW, many of which have never been printed, aren't that accurate and are basically just an undetailed shell.  You don't give any idea to buyers about how, when you drew them, you intended to complete these models.

A couple of years ago you stated that the 'white strong & flexible' that you'd chosen to print your designs on could accept a glue, but when asked failed to actually provide one that would work (there were/are none).

 

You may have 'hundreds of designs' but there's no doubt that a very high proportion have never been test printed/purchased. You've always distanced yourself from the purchaser by using SW and have in the past stated that you didn't want to get caught up with customer refunds or complaints  when a print failed.  

 

8 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

Initially I thought a group could take over, but I have a feeling many in the hobby are either not prepared to take that on or not capable of doing so and want someone else to do the hard work.

 

Or the reality is that they're worthless.

 

7 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

Remember I want some financial renumeration

 

I'm reminded of the advice on how to become a 'millionaire model maker'  start off as a 'multi millionaire model maker' 

[billbedford]

10 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

All my designs have passed initial checking on Shapeways, so there should not be any big problems 

But have you tested them on other types of printers?  The SLS printers which most of your coaches seem to have been printed on are never going to be hobbyist machines. 

 

[njee20]

I must say I have to agree that I put no stock in Shapeways checking. Indeed I've seen it reported in a a couple of places that a number of your designs make no concessions for how to actually build them into a usable piece of stock, and I recall reading you saying that your catalogue is far too extensive for you to have actually tested any meaningful proportion. That isn't what I would want were I buying STLs, not that no walls are below 0.5mm. Meh.

 

Quantity is also only really useful if you plan to monetise them going forward. If you want to print items for your own use then having 100 different designs probably isn't that useful. If you plan to monetise them then I'd have thought being able to say "this prints really well, it's designed to accept these bogies and here's a link to a decal sheet" is more useful than "here's a thing, should work, crack on".

 

Disc would be a truly insane way to sell your designs though, as you've been told. Very few laptops have disc drives any more (we've got 5 in the house, none do), and fewer and fewer people use desktops. CDs are prone to damage, and have small capacities. Just use USB flash drives. If you managed to sell even 100 flash drives at £15 each I'd be impressed, 1000 is the stuff of pipe dreams.

[JCL]

@njee20 I was thinking about this, I don’t believe I’ve had a cd/dvd player inside or attached to a computer for about 5 years. I wouldn’t be interested in purchasing flash drives either, as digital downloads mean I could purchase a file and have it on my computer within a few minutes.

 

Obviously other people’s mileage may vary.

[njee20]

Yep, I suspect you’ll be right. Purchasing any physical media is likely to be a barrier, but I do understand Simon not wanting to do it via online downloads. But then he already has a website, so no idea!

[T0ny]

"Good job its a passion and not a livelihood :)  "

Exactly this. Very few people are going to make a living from their work, especially if you realistically price your time, minimum wage anyone? Multiply your time by the minimum wage in your area and come out with a price, add on costs of all the other costs, heating, lighting, equipment etc and the actual cost will be too high to sell at a realistic price.

People create these models because it is their passion. if they make a bit of money then that is a bonus. There is some fantastic work out there but the majority of it will never sell for a living never mind a profit.

[rue_d_etropal]

Just because people here don't have CD/DVD drives does not mean there are not a lot out there with them. Films on DVD still seem to sell well, otherwise Amazon and supermarkets would not be selling them. Downloading might be an easier option for some, but files can still get corrupted and lost, and can be damaged by stray magnetic fields . I think to his was one reason for development of CDs in the first place. Relatively easy to copy , and then use this. Easy enough to copy whole lot to computer. Better than having all eggs in one basket.

There also seem to be quite a few companies offering cd and dvd copying, obviously not one with any copying features. 

I only posted to this thread because someone asked for sources of STL files. 

Luckily despite some of the comments I have a lot of happy modellers who have used my prints., Some have featured to hem in magazines, although I have not noticed anything in BRM!  I am hoping to be able to talk to some people at York  over Easter, so probably won't be saying anything till then.

Almost forgot. I am happy to demonstrate some of my ideas on how to use my designs, at exhibitions, such as paints and glues , but no one has asked. Although it is nice to see those who do demonstrations at exhibitions, it would be nice to see something other than advanced scratch and kit building, something for the average modeller.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by rue_d_etropal
More info

[JCL]

@rue_d_etropal I think you missed my "Obviously other people’s mileage may vary" as I realise some people still rely on cds and dvds.

 

That said, I don't think I've ever had much of a problem with malevolent stray magnetic fields attacking my downloads. 🙂

[55020]

1 minute ago, JCL said:

@rue_d_etropal I think you missed my "Obviously other people’s mileage may vary" as I realise some people still rely on cds and dvds.

 

That said, I don't think I've ever had much of a problem with malevolent stray magnetic fields attacking my downloads. 🙂

 

Or to put a different spin on your interaction...."you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"!

 

 

Steve