I will spend £150 - £250 on a loco but nothing on a controller

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I sometimes operate a friend's extensive O gauge coarse scale 3-rail layout whose oldest rolling stock is prewar; it was featured in MRC sometime in the 1950s.  It has two or three dozen home-made wooden cased controllers, jig-built of similar vintage.  They are fed from a common heavy duty split potential transformer rectifier.  A (home-made) 3-position centre-off switch selects +12v for forward power, -12v for reverse, followed by a speed knob attached to a copper wiper rotating across an arc of closely spaced copper studs, each connected to its immediate neighbour by resistance wire, so the further round you go, the greater the resistance.  Overload protection via sidelamp bulb wired in series.  A more recent refinement : if there is a short whose location is not obvious, controllers can now be individually isolated from the power pack using WW2 Lancaster bomb release switches. 

 

It sounds like the kind of controller that should have a notching relay and a shunt setting.

[tomparryharry]

Deleted

Edited February 18, 2023 by tomparryharry
It's gone!

[Clive Mortimore]

58 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

@Clive Mortimore Just in case people think I am taking the mickey, it's important for me to add, I've seen how you wire and it is nothing less than admirable.  If I could wire like that I would not use DCC, there would be no need.

Thanks Woody,

 

For a short time in my life I was an assembly inspector at Marconi's and picked up the wiring bug there. I actually enjoy wiring and getting it right.

[Pete the Elaner]

For a long time I have felt that H&M clippers & duette's provide 3 speeds of control: Stop, quick & flat out. They just don't do a nice, smooth acceleration.

I have heard people claim that theirs are better but I saw a layout article once where the operator said something along the lines of "we use a duette because it does the job just nice". But guess what I saw on the layout at a show: Trains leaving the station & up to full speed before the first carriage has left the platform. It was far from realistic.

[kevinlms]

3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I have heard people claim that theirs are better

Some Duettes etc apparently are. Why, because the resistance mats were available in different resistances. The ones with a higher resistance would perform better than those with lower resistance mats on more modern motors.

As I have written before, there were 6 types of mats available, the problem seems to be identifying the mat so fitted.

[kevinlms]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

But TTBOMK, there has not been any improvement in the field of DC contollers since the Gaugemasters that are more or less standard issue nowadays, and that I use at Cwmdimbath, were introduced.  I will retract this statement if it can be shown to me that Morleys are significantly better at controlling trains, to an extent that makes them worth saving up for, but Morleys have been around for a while as well.  There are one or two smartphone-app based systems out there, but the difference with these is that there is no knob or physical interface between the operator and the controller, just the phone touchscreen.  The circuitry in the control box part that is connected by wires to the track is probably no different to 'normal' DC controllers and possibly not as 'good's as some.

 

I'm not sure that DCC has improved very much over the last thirty years or so, either, but DCC has some advantages over DC in the matter of controlled slow running and smooth starts and stops, which is the very thing that I would like to see improved in DC controllers.  The big thing here is that DCC provides the full 12vdc to the track at all times and works by controlling the current to the motor with a chip aboard the loco, or switching it off entirely.  The result is that. when you want to run your loco slowly but under full control, easing up for example or propelling into a goods shed, situations where things were taken very carefully in real life, the wheels pick up 12vdc from the track and the pickups pick up 12vdc from the wheels, which is a different proposition to whatever voltage is the minimum that will turn the motor, and far more robust in the sense of overcoming minor resistances such as track or pickup dirt, or less than perfectly level track laying.  The trains will run better.

 

Well, if that's how you feel, convert to DCC Johnster and stop moaning about it.  Ah, but I can't realistically afford to convert my entire fleet of locos to DCC, especially as they'e all have to be done at once, excuse the tragic violins but I'm a poor pensioner on a limited fixed income with a very finite amount of disposable.  I am pretty much stuck with DC, and have to make the best of it.  There are tweaks that can be brought in to play to improve slow running, fine tuning of mechs and a strict cleaning regime, careful track laying, and such.  I have improved some locos by tightening or loosening the keeper plate screws by a quarter turn at a time; matters are so critical that every little helps.

 

But if my comment that there has been no improvement in DC technology for 40 years is justified and not just something I think is so because nobody has told me otherwise, then there must be room for improving said tech.  We have pretty good RTR mechs, where are the DC controllers to get the best out of them?  Are bi-directional DC stayalives possible, and how effective would they be at low voltage anyway; if they were effective at low voltage would they compromise controllability at higher speeds?  Might a basic chip-controlled DC system that worked of a permanent 12vdc and some sort of NFC controlling the chip, not DCC, be possible?  Would push button or touch screen be preferable on DC controllers to eliminate the occasional mechanical issues with phsyical switches and knobs?  In short, can my locos give better slow performance, and how?

There is a good reason why 12V DC hasn't been improved.

 

The problem is with trying to achieve low speeds, is trying to get reliable power from the track to the motor terminals. To make the train go slower, you need low levels of voltage. While you could do this, it makes the resistance and therefore conductivity of the pick up system, far more critical. For model railways, this is a key point, this doesn't apply to other low power/speed applications - such as computer drives, they don't rely on pick ups, but are hard wired to the motor.

 

 

If you want to improve DC control.

 

Use either a battery based controller, which requires on board batteries, which presents a whole new range of problems range/size etc, especially on smaller prototypes.

 

The alternative is to use a permanent higher voltage on the track and control the locos remotely - this is usually called DCC! As you have pointed out, DCC has been around for 30 plus years and everyone works to a recognised standard. No wonder this is method of control is growing.

 

The DC market is dominated by cheap train set controllers, where the aim is to provide a basic means of controlling the locos in the box, by the cheapest means practical. Often this controller works with the loco in the set, but trying to use another loco from the same manufacturer, and it sometimes doesn't work, because it is outside of the controllers limits.

 

No, the DC market is not dead and never will be, but too expect big developments, is going to lead to disappointment.

[The Johnster]

Well, as I pointed out, I am not likely to ever be adopting DCC, not because I don’t think it’s a good system, I do, or that I object to it on Luddite grounds, I don’t; I’m simply unable to pay for it.  Chipping my locos would cost not far off a thousand beer vouchers, and not only do I not have a thousand beer vouchers, I am highly unlikely to be acquiring them in that sort of quantity any time soon, or any time at all for that matter. 
 

Hence my mild dismay at the static nature of improvements in DC control over the last forty-odd years.  I absolutely agree that a consistent high voltage to the track overcomes resistance and conductivity issues, but I cannot accept that DC is at the end of it’s potential development.  I seriously doubt that anybody, anywhere, has tried to improve it at all since DCC has been available, which is a shame because apparently just over half of us use DC, largely I suspect for the same cost reasons as myself, though many of us have older models that can’t easily be chipped.  
 

Stayalives would help, though their effect is limited at the lower voltages.  I experimented years ago with various capacitors on a Lima 4575 and got some seriously improved slow and smooth running out of it, but of course all went bellyup as soon as the polarity changed when I wanted to go bunker-first.  If stayalives can improve the smoothness of a Lima pancake with horrible plastic spur gears, they could transform a modern DC controlled mech from good to near-perfect. 
 

What is needed is a means of reversing the polarity aboard the loco at a point between the stayalive and the motor terminals.  Not full DCC, perhaps a Bluetooth-activated switch, which could also switch the loco off, at a low cost per loco.  This would dispense with the need for reversing switches on DC controllers, which might make them a little cheaper as well. 
 

Bit as nobody is developing new features for DC controllers, I’ll have to wait until it’s my turn to win the lottery…

 

 

[phil-b259]

28 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Well, as I pointed out, I am not likely to ever be adopting DCC, not because I don’t think it’s a good system, I do, or that I object to it on Luddite grounds, I don’t; I’m simply unable to pay for it.  Chipping my locos would cost not far off a thousand beer vouchers, and not only do I not have a thousand beer vouchers, I am highly unlikely to be acquiring them in that sort of quantity any time soon, or any time at all for that matter. 

 

 

 

Plus, as with all things which rely on computer chips, what might be the 'bees knees' one year can easily become outdated within 10 due to advances in technology - at which point you potentially face having to shell out all over again.

 

Whats more we also have seen the consistent adoption of new types of DCC sockets over the years meaning that not every decoder can fit every model - but in general a DC controller is compatible with every RTR model released.

 

Now don't get me wrong, DCC is a wonderful thing in principle - but not everyone aspires to have all the latest bells and whistles (particularly when so much else on a model railway - (e.g. model figures or vehicles on roads ) don't move or show any signs of life*

 

 

 

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Well, as I pointed out, I am not likely to ever be adopting DCC, not because I don’t think it’s a good system, I do, or that I object to it on Luddite grounds, I don’t; I’m simply unable to pay for it.  Chipping my locos would cost not far off a thousand beer vouchers, and not only do I not have a thousand beer vouchers, I am highly unlikely to be acquiring them in that sort of quantity any time soon, or any time at all for that matter. 
 

Hence my mild dismay at the static nature of improvements in DC control over the last forty-odd years.  I absolutely agree that a consistent high voltage to the track overcomes resistance and conductivity issues, but I cannot accept that DC is at the end of it’s potential development.  I seriously doubt that anybody, anywhere, has tried to improve it at all since DCC has been available, which is a shame because apparently just over half of us use DC, largely I suspect for the same cost reasons as myself, though many of us have older models that can’t easily be chipped.  
 

Stayalives would help, though their effect is limited at the lower voltages.  I experimented years ago with various capacitors on a Lima 4575 and got some seriously improved slow and smooth running out of it, but of course all went bellyup as soon as the polarity changed when I wanted to go bunker-first.  If stayalives can improve the smoothness of a Lima pancake with horrible plastic spur gears, they could transform a modern DC controlled mech from good to near-perfect. 
 

What is needed is a means of reversing the polarity aboard the loco at a point between the stayalive and the motor terminals.  Not full DCC, perhaps a Bluetooth-activated switch, which could also switch the loco off, at a low cost per loco.  This would dispense with the need for reversing switches on DC controllers, which might make them a little cheaper as well. 
 

Bit as nobody is developing new features for DC controllers, I’ll have to wait until it’s my turn to win the lottery…

 

 

I'm not disputing the fact that many can't pay for DCC, yes it is a serious drawback. But to be honest a large layout is going to cost lots of your currency choice to get operational anyway.

A friend of mine built a large layout, wired for DC, for which he required about 20 Gaugemaster controllers and power packs. Along with all the switches that he required for switching blocks, terminal strips etc, I suspected ended up, not a lot different to the 'I can't afford to go DCC' argument.

Oh, BTW he has no idea of how to wire it up, he had someone install everything for him. So not a case of doing something he was familiar with. He was scared off by the alleged cost.

 

You do realise that the 'advances in DC technology' that you advocate, would be no cheaper than going full DCC anyway? Inserting additional components inside a 'standard' DC loco, is going to make it incompatible with a 'normal' DC controller anyway. So you're right back where you started from - it's unaffordable.

Edited February 18, 2023 by kevinlms
More info

[Blue Max]

20 hours ago, Junctionmad said:

As a diesel man this is my kind of dcc throttle 

 

 

That’s an interesting looking controller, could I ask the name of the manufacturer ?

[RichardT]

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

but I cannot accept that DC is at the end of it’s potential development.

It’s not. But neither was the Zeppelin, or more relevantly the steam locomotive (see the work of Chapelon, Wardale, even the LMS Turbomotive).  It’s not the development potential per se that’s the limiting factor but extraneous issues (how many would adopt it, would the new generation DC controllers be cheaper than going DCC ? etc etc) that mean the development costs for super-DC probably aren’t worth the commercial return. 
 

When you get your lottery win though… (but then, you could use that money to pay someone else to build you your ideal layout in DCC from scratch!)

 

RichardT

(still on DC, but teetering…)
 

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by RichardT
Another thought

[AY Mod]

1 hour ago, Blue Max said:

That’s an interesting looking controller, could I ask the name of the manufacturer ?

 

https://www.iascaled.com/store/MRBW-CST/

[tomparryharry]

14 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

For a long time I have felt that H&M clippers & duette's provide 3 speeds of control: Stop, quick & flat out. They just don't do a nice, smooth acceleration.

I have heard people claim that theirs are better but I saw a layout article once where the operator said something along the lines of "we use a duette because it does the job just nice". But guess what I saw on the layout at a show: Trains leaving the station & up to full speed before the first carriage has left the platform. It was far from realistic.

Hi Pete, it does depend on your motive power choice. In the big world, some of these new-fangled jobbies can indeed reach line speed well within station limits, whereas steam takes a bit more realistic timeframe. 

 

Johnster of this parish received some adverse words recently on here, about his perception of unrealistic operation. Broadly, I would have agreed with him. However, operating practices on the big railway continue to upgrade, and things like 'closing up' are a thing of the past. Newer (& younger) forum members won't understand. It's not ignorance; far, far from it. Operation principals from the 1950's are now 3-4 generations into the past. 

 

For a DC luddite like me, it'll still be a Duette, or something of the same ilk. Surprisingly, I've used Duettes to control locomotives, purely by judicious control of the rotary control. The Gaugemaster handheld on a lanyard, is still a good bet; just the job!

[Chris M]

The OP makes a good point. I recently invested a whole £15 on a state of the art controller.

 

 

Well it was state of the art back in the 1980s and it is still fantastic so long as I don’t use any locos with coreless motors.

 

I now have three Walkabouts and I do love them. I also have three Gaugemaster controllers and a HM6000. My control panel has sockets for two controllers so I can plug in the ones I want to use. Each has their own special value. 
 

As much as I loved the old H&M Duettes I would not use one to control my N gauge locos.

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

9 hours ago, kevinlms said:

If you want to improve DC control.

 

Use either a battery based controller, which requires on board batteries, which presents a whole new range of problems range/size etc, especially on smaller prototypes.

 

Battery limitations should not be seen as a negative, at least for steam/diesel outline. 

It should force you to go to refuel every so often.

[John M Upton]

I have had Gaugemaster controllers for decades now, only one fault in all that time (knackered cable) which was fixed free of charge after a five minute train ride to their emporium.

 

I have demoted the older style D series controller to a bench tester now (the old square box style) and a now out of production little E series is the testing set in the shed.

 

Actual operating is in the hands of W Series wander controllers.

 

I did purchase one of the newer silver and black Hornby train set ones some years back as a potential testing controller, it lasted barely five minutes before it broke!

 

Meanwhile, Rails of Sheffield just offered me this load of old junk:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/204242870298?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=7NGT9XstTyC&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=NiGtNyCuSh2&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Edited February 18, 2023 by John M Upton

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, John M Upton said:

Meanwhile, Rails of Sheffield just offered me this load of old junk:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/204242870298

 

Well, if you want a lucky dip of HD 3-rail rolling stock, and trust Rails to actually have stuff in the boxes, rather than the "oh so valuable" boxes alone, then its worth making a bid for them.  They're offering to deliver the lot, including at least one heavy transformer, for 4 quid, which is what they'd charge for the rolling stock/boxes alone.

 

When they arrive, just leave the electrical components in the box and when you have the opportunity, take them to the council recycling tip.  They're bound to have an "electricals" skip, mine does.

 

 

[jjb1970]

I think DCC offers genuine advantages. I am not interested in stuff like sound and smoke, but went DCC in OO/HO for better slow speed control. And while wiring is not as simple as the two wire type marketing we used to see it is a lot simpler than DC.

 

That said, DC also works. Wiring is more complex but not the end of the world and performance can still be excellent. I have never gone DCC in N (partly because my N is predominantly Japanese outline, and DCC has never really caught on in Japan the way it has elsewhere) and am happy with performance.

 

It's worth keeping in mind that the reason things become obsolete is not usually because they don't work, but because something else does it better. If you are happy with DC and don't want the various functionality which DCC provides then DC still works.

[SteveyDee68]

One controller that has been advertised in all the magazines* purports to work for both DC and DCC models at the flick of a switch - does anybody have any experience of it?

 

I’m interested in it because I have picked up a number of second hand models that have chips fitted (usually as an unlisted “bonus”!) but don’t have a DCC controller to use with them, but the majority of my models are unchipped.

 

I’m interested in DCC purely for the better running and stay alive capacitors that help with small shunting locos’ performance - sound is of no interest to me, personally.

 

Meanwhile, I have my Gaugemaster Walkabout, whilst examples of DUETTE and CLIPPER controllers sit stored in a box (don’t want to risk burning out a coreless motor).

 

A very interesting topic, as I have been thinking about upgrading my control system but am currently well and truly stuck in the middle!

 

Steve S

[Wheatley]

On 18/02/2023 at 13:51, AY Mod said:

 

https://www.iascaled.com/store/MRBW-CST/

It's beautiful but it's £400ish, if you can get one imported to the UK. I think you might have partly answered your own question !

Edited February 19, 2023 by Wheatley

[wasabi]

On 18/02/2023 at 00:25, Pete the Elaner said:

For a long time I have felt that H&M clippers & duette's provide 3 speeds of control: Stop, quick & flat out. They just don't do a nice, smooth acceleration.

I have heard people claim that theirs are better but I saw a layout article once where the operator said something along the lines of "we use a duette because it does the job just nice". But guess what I saw on the layout at a show: Trains leaving the station & up to full speed before the first carriage has left the platform. It was far from realistic.

Not if you're modelling the Yamanote line in Tokyo in peak hours when it runs at 2 minute headways and the driver doesn't seem to put the brake on until the head of the train is half way down the platform.  I assume the reverse applies on departing.  Other high intensity commuter lines may be available.

 

[Colin_McLeod]

Just now, wasabi said:

Not if you're modelling the Yamanote line in Tokyo in peak hours when it runs at 2 minute headways and the driver doesn't seem to put the brake on until the head of the train is half way down the platform.  I assume the reverse applies on departing.

 

You mean the driver does not release the brakes until half the train is out of the platform!  Not sure that would work lol 😷

[RichardT]

2 hours ago, Wheatley said:

It's beautiful but it's £400ish, if you can get one imported to the UK. I think you might have partly answered your own question !

They won’t sell to the UK (wireless regulations) so the issue is academic. But I do like the concept.

 

RT

[woodenhead]

9 minutes ago, RichardT said:

They won’t sell to the UK (wireless regulations) so the issue is academic. But I do like the concept.

 

RT

I've seen them in the UK, there was a US layout at Stafford where they were using them or had just purchased one.

[RichardT]

3 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I've seen them in the UK, there was a US layout at Stafford where they were using them or had just purchased one.

Must have been a grey market/personal import? This is what their website says: