I will spend £150 - £250 on a loco but nothing on a controller

[AY Mod]

14 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

What is Number 4?

 

That's if you've got the flux capacitor stay alive. So 4 can be 1,2,3 or 4. Obvious innit. All the gizmos but you've got to put your watch in it. That's for changing the year modelled when you reach 88mph.

[Clive Mortimore]

27 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

An image that would make absolute sense to @Clive Mortimore

As I have been included in this conversation, I remain happy with my Gaugemaster controllers. That is despite working for Gaugemaster many moons ago when one of the two partners was the worse boss I have ever worked for. If any past or present day employees are reading this it wasn't Rod.

 

I understand where Andy is coming from with regard to "us" buying expensive locos and still using our old controllers. Now as a Luddite DC user is there a controller that will make my locos and DMUs behave better than what I presently use?

 

Now so people can make sense of what Woody has posted.

 

 

The outside.

 

Inside the lid, since then the wires for the signals have been added.

 

The bank of Gaugemaster self latching relays for point frog switching.

 

All wires are labeled both ends and documented.

[Anadin Dogwalker]

Guilty as charged. My Dads 1979 Duette provides the 16Vac output to stationary decoders to kick the point motors under my layout. 

My 2005 Sony Trinitron has outlasted the contemporary DVD player (which failed after 8yrs) and VCR which lasted a bit longer and I replaced both with the same models.  Previous to that I used my Granddads '72 single channel manual-tune-dial Sanyo. Still got it and I bet it still works (and now you only need one channel if connected to a digibox). Inbuilt obsolescence  was an alien concept back then. 

[MarkC]

Interesting topic, this. I tend to use Clippers for bench running & have used them on my exhibition layouts for many years, but I do have a Gaugemaster handheld controller on a flying lead which will see use in the future. (With a Clipper available "just in case").

 

However, the majority of my locomotives are very much "old school" when it comes to motors, and I can't see me going to DCC any time soon, so barring disasters, it'll be "steady as she goes" for me for the foreseeable future...

 

Mark

[The Johnster]

I use a Gaugemaster power controller with a HH auxiliary on my DC BLT.  They work, and slow running & smooth stops snd starts are not bad.   There is also a Hornby HM6000 Bluetooth smartphone app controller, which has the advantage of being untethered, but I find it faffy and it is a two-hander to use with the phone. 
 

But the basic circuitry and tech in a DC controller has probably not changed much in the 40 years since DCC became widely available.  DCC has absorbed all the R&D in that time, but motors and gearing have changed to the almost universal (and very effective) use of the can motor/worm/idler/drive cog setup.  I doubt if any DC controller has been designed to be as compatible with these mechs as might be possible, and they ‘work’ despite this.  I’m sure improvements in DC controller performance can and should be made.  
 

There were all sorts of bells and whistles compensated DC controllers with simulated acceleration and braking back in the day, which I thought were a bit gimmicky, and I’m not suggesting a return to that approach, which DCC is far better suited to anyway.  I reckon a simple user interface, knob, centre-off direction switch and a power led, configured to suit modern motor characteristics, hand held and capable of one-handed operation, preferably wirelessly but not relying on a smartphone app, would be a highly desirable commodity, and I’d buy one, but for now I have yet to see anything better than my GMs, far DC at least.  Not tried Morley; they look nice but are a bit pricey, they’d need to be a significant improvement for me to invest in one.  
 

Controllers supplied with train sets have never been much cop, and TTBOMK still aren’t. Andy’s point about £200 locos with trainset or outdated H&M resistance mat controllers is valid, but where are the high quality DC comtrollers?
 

That Lionel (probably 120vac input) is a thing of great beauty, Johnster wantee!  Would look at home on Flash Gordon’s Rocket Ship…

[The Johnster]

24 minutes ago, Anadin Dogwalker said:

Guilty as charged. My Dads 1979 Duette provides the 16Vac output to stationary decoders to kick the point motors under my layout. 

My 2005 Sony Trinitron has outlasted the contemporary DVD player (which failed after 8yrs) and VCR which lasted a bit longer and I replaced both with the same models.  Previous to that I used my Granddads '72 single channel manual-tune-dial Sanyo. Still got it and I bet it still works (and now you only need one channel if connected to a digibox). Inbuilt obsolescence  was an alien concept back then. 

Not if you’d bought a Ford Escort (drained rainwater from the roof onto the top of the shock absorbers, guaranteed rust/MOT failure) it wasn’t.  Or a mini; I still have nightmares about sub-frames and cv joints. 
 

My first tv was a monochrome dial-tune Sanyo 14” portable that had terminals to be run from a car battery, all plastic and indestructible.  Brilliant little thing but the loop ariel wasn’t much good unless you were line-of-sight to the transmitter.  
 

[tomparryharry]

Everything is DC here; mostly H&M. I've got some Guagemaster panel controllers that I converted to lanyard, but that's about it. For Powerpack I've got some 16VAC transformers (ex computer) to run the auxiliaries. I bought my first Duette in 1973, and it still works just fine. Other club members used to chuck them out, so there's 3-4 in hiding somewhere.

 

I can't really see me going to DCC in the near future: I understand it, and I feel it's another layer of 'tech' I don't really need. Sound is a non-starter, unless you can add all of the expletives!  

[tomparryharry]

Young whippersnappers today!  Our microwave was a wedding present from the in-laws when we bought our first house, and it's still going strong. My personal Dualit toaster gets a real pasting, but it still burns my toast as well as ever. We still cook in Black & White....

 

Today? Pah!

[westernviscount]

6 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

 

I originally used Gaugemaster handhelds but - as I do a lot of shunting - I found the slider switch caused (what I would lightly term) some 'repetitive strain' in my thumb.

I thought it was just me being soft!! Now I feel better. 

 

I use the gaugemaster combi as it was cheap and also excellent. 

Edited February 17, 2023 by westernviscount

[Anadin Dogwalker]

53 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Not if you’d bought a Ford Escort (drained rainwater from the roof onto the top of the shock absorbers, guaranteed rust/MOT failure) it wasn’t.  Or a mini; I still have nightmares about sub-frames and cv joints. 
 

My first tv was a monochrome dial-tune Sanyo 14” portable that had terminals to be run from a car battery, all plastic and indestructible.  Brilliant little thing but the loop ariel wasn’t much good unless you were line-of-sight to the transmitter.  
 

I'd forgotten about the loop aerial (good call) but the set itself was in daily use from 99 to 2005 without a hitch.

[Coldgunner]

Mainly rock my HM2000 I bought about a decade ago, and a more recently acquired Dynamis for the DCC running. Can't fault the HM2000, though shocked at how much the price of it has gone up. Think I paid £40 for mine (used though).

[Nearholmer]

A lot depends on the nature of the ancient controller.

 

The one here is an early 1950s job, but is a tapped-transformer controller, rather than a rheostat, and is a perfectly good thing even now, entirely compatible with most modern motors. I quite like the “notched” nature of the control, it feels quite railway-like, although it could do with one lower tap, even for use with contemporary open-frame motors.

 

(please excuse the “work in progress” nature of things)

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Colin_McLeod]

5 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

I spent nothing on my Hornby Dublo B3 battery controller in 1955 because my father bought it for a birthday present. It is very well engineered and probably cost the same as my Hornby Dublo 0-6-2T. My view is if it isn't broken don't fix it.  

 

When you have one of those you don't need any of those new fangled H&M Duette thingys.

 

 

4 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

 

 

..... and a 16v ac supply to the panel mounted controller, believed to be by Codar but wiphich lost any identification Mark's long ago. I did put a new "pot" in it a while ago but other than that it has been in use since the late 1950s with no problems.

 

.

 

I believe that is indeed a Codar from the late 1950s. One of these:

 

[t-b-g]

22 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

When you have one of those you don't need any of those new fangled H&M Duette thingys.

 

 

 

I believe that is indeed a Codar from the late 1950s. One of these:

 

 

Yes. That is the one. It cropped up elsewhere on RMWeb a while ago. I was confused as the knob is an H&M one, which has replaced the Codar knob at some time. What you never quite know with Peter Denny was whether the innards are Codar or if he just used a spare/scrap top plate, which fitted the space on the control panel, with the electrics from a different controller fitted behind. My feeling is that the works are by Codar but there is nothing printed on them to prove it.

 

It certainly still works very nicely indeed. The only problem I have had with it was with a worn out "POT" which was easy enough to replace with a new one bought from somewhere like RS Components. 

[adb968008]

On a tangent, my little one has a science electronics set with various bits.

 

One such piece was a Rheostat, so we built a circuit, moved on from the brightness of the light to wiring it to the track and running a loco. It was powered off a bank of 6xAAs (9v) and was smooth as silk… being battery theres no pulse either.

 

I used to like the old H&M duettes, it had more voltage at rail than gaugemaster ones.

 

it would be nice to solve the electronic track cleaner problem against modern locos, that doesnt involve considerable manual track cleaning efforts (or using a few roco locos and a roco track cleaning coach.. which does the job in an industrial manner that nothing oo can).

Edited February 17, 2023 by adb968008

[Michael Hodgson]

In their day H&M controllers were the Rolls-Royce of controllers.  Better than the bakelite Triang stuff certainly.

 

• New locos came out.  We bought the odd one.  It was compatible with what we already had, so why replace a controller?
• More new locos came out. better than the last lot.  Still compatible, though by now you could get various electronic products using back-EMF to improve control, but that was entirely optional.  No recommendations that you now needed xxx to control the latest locos.
• Much more detailed locos came out.  £££ more, but it had much better detail.  Still compatible, so what's to say your old controller is now archaic, apart from the problems where coreless motors had been used?
• DCC came out a few years ago.  Some folk migrated, they did need a new controller.  But cost of decoders, controller and differing wiring practices make it hard for many to justify, and I think I would be right in saying the majority (just) are still analogue,

 

I sometimes operate a friend's extensive O gauge coarse scale 3-rail layout whose oldest rolling stock is prewar; it was featured in MRC sometime in the 1950s.  It has two or three dozen home-made wooden cased controllers, jig-built of similar vintage.  They are fed from a common heavy duty split potential transformer rectifier.  A (home-made) 3-position centre-off switch selects +12v for forward power, -12v for reverse, followed by a speed knob attached to a copper wiper rotating across an arc of closely spaced copper studs, each connected to its immediate neighbour by resistance wire, so the further round you go, the greater the resistance.  Overload protection via sidelamp bulb wired in series.  A more recent refinement : if there is a short whose location is not obvious, controllers can now be individually isolated from the power pack using WW2 Lancaster bomb release switches. 

 

If the traction supply fails (and it has a couple of times), we can run a (very) limited service using clockwork on the main lines - but then normal block working must be suspended as all trains are signalled under block reguation 23 (Train Running Away in the Right Dirction).  Rail replacement bus for the single track branch is a horse-drawn stage coach!

[maico]

25 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

In their day H&M controllers were the Rolls-Royce of controllers.  Better than the bakelite Triang stuff certainly.

 

• New locos came out.  We bought the odd one.  It was compatible with what we already had, so why replace a controller?
• More new locos came out. better than the last lot.  Still compatible, though by now you could get various electronic products using back-EMF to improve control, but that was entirely optional.  No recommendations that you now needed xxx to control the latest locos.
• Much more detailed locos came out.  £££ more, but it had much better detail.  Still compatible, so what's to say your old controller is now archaic, apart from the problems where coreless motors had been used?
• DCC came out a few years ago.  Some folk migrated, they did need a new controller.  But cost of decoders, controller and differing wiring practices make it hard for many to justify, and I think I would be right in saying the majority (just) are still analogue,

 

I sometimes operate a friend's extensive O gauge coarse scale 3-rail layout whose oldest rolling stock is prewar; it was featured in MRC sometime in the 1950s.  It has two or three dozen home-made wooden cased controllers, jig-built of similar vintage.  They are fed from a common heavy duty split potential transformer rectifier.  A (home-made) 3-position centre-off switch selects +12v for forward power, -12v for reverse, followed by a speed knob attached to a copper wiper rotating across an arc of closely spaced copper studs, each connected to its immediate neighbour by resistance wire, so the further round you go, the greater the resistance.  Overload protection via sidelamp bulb wired in series.  A more recent refinement : if there is a short whose location is not obvious, controllers can now be individually isolated from the power pack using WW2 Lancaster bomb release switches. 

 

If the traction supply fails (and it has a couple of times), we can run a (very) limited service using clockwork on the main lines - but then normal block working must be suspended as all trains are signalled under block reguation 23 (Train Running Away in the Right Dirction).  Rail replacement bus for the single track branch is a horse-drawn stage coach!

 

A bit more than a few years ago, my oldest loco that came fitted with DCC from new is a Brawa approaching its 25th birthday.

 

This Hornby is straight out of Blake's 7....

[melmoth]

I AM NOT AN ELECTRICIIAN, but I have a mate who is, and who cannibalises old (really old) radio sets to make Bluetooth compatible digital speakers. They have the nice warm hum of elderly components (and, indeed, elderly relatives, in some cases) but are still able to bring a similar clarity to either a Radio One Outside Broadcast or Test Match Special transmitting from somewhere in the Empire where the sun never sets. I'm not entirely sure what this has to do with anything in the thread above, but like so many letters to the Telegraph, I Felt I Ought To Say Something.

[Michael Hodgson]

14 minutes ago, maico said:

 

A bit more than a few years ago, my oldest loco that came fitted with DCC from new is a Brawa approaching its 25th birthday.

 

This Hornby is straight out of Blake's 7....

Yeah, I've still got one of them, one of the dreadful early Hornby "Black 5"s chipped accordingly, and a terminus to fiddle yard layout which one I intend to convert to a through station an DCC - none of it has been used since the late 1970s.  I haven't decided if I'll keep the zero one accessory control on it though.

[DaveF]

My first train set around 1955 came with a Tri-ang Controller which did the job - i.e. trains could go in either direction and within the limits of the then Tri-ang Jinty it could be used to produce reasonably slow movements - even at about 6 years old I realised that shunting did not happen at express train speed.

 

As time passed I moved on to H&M units, first a Minor then later Clippers which were adequate with X04 and K's motors, especially if I used half wave.  I still have a Clipper which lives under my modelling table, I use it now and then to check if there is life in a chassis (or just a motor) using a pair of crocodile clips.

 

Since the early 1980s I've used Gaugemaster hand held Model W for n gauge and later O gauge.  I realised straight away that they are better than the old H&Ms.  The O gauge layout is small, the modern steam locos do not draw much current so the Model W doesn't get hot.  For locos with a higher current draw I use the O gauge Model 100M - both are wired into the layout.

 

Some of my Swiss n gauge locos date back to 1979, they have survived both the old Clippers and the Gaugemasters with no problems.

 

I will not move to DCC because most of my n gauge locos have a chassis with no space for a decoder without significant amounts of the chassis being cut away.  In the case of O gauge I simply do not need it on a "one engine in steam" size layout.

 

However if I was starting now in n gauge I would use DCC.

 

In my view whether you are DC or DCC you need a decent controller - and you have to pay enough for it.

 

David

 

[pete_mcfarlane]

34 minutes ago, maico said:

This Hornby is straight out of Blake's 7....

"Maximum Power!"

[woodenhead]

7 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

It is easier to connect to the track than a Gaugemaster controller.

 

And uses free electricity, but only in a storm 😄

[The Johnster]

But TTBOMK, there has not been any improvement in the field of DC contollers since the Gaugemasters that are more or less standard issue nowadays, and that I use at Cwmdimbath, were introduced.  I will retract this statement if it can be shown to me that Morleys are significantly better at controlling trains, to an extent that makes them worth saving up for, but Morleys have been around for a while as well.  There are one or two smartphone-app based systems out there, but the difference with these is that there is no knob or physical interface between the operator and the controller, just the phone touchscreen.  The circuitry in the control box part that is connected by wires to the track is probably no different to 'normal' DC controllers and possibly not as 'good's as some.

 

I'm not sure that DCC has improved very much over the last thirty years or so, either, but DCC has some advantages over DC in the matter of controlled slow running and smooth starts and stops, which is the very thing that I would like to see improved in DC controllers.  The big thing here is that DCC provides the full 12vdc to the track at all times and works by controlling the current to the motor with a chip aboard the loco, or switching it off entirely.  The result is that. when you want to run your loco slowly but under full control, easing up for example or propelling into a goods shed, situations where things were taken very carefully in real life, the wheels pick up 12vdc from the track and the pickups pick up 12vdc from the wheels, which is a different proposition to whatever voltage is the minimum that will turn the motor, and far more robust in the sense of overcoming minor resistances such as track or pickup dirt, or less than perfectly level track laying.  The trains will run better.

 

Well, if that's how you feel, convert to DCC Johnster and stop moaning about it.  Ah, but I can't realistically afford to convert my entire fleet of locos to DCC, especially as they'e all have to be done at once, excuse the tragic violins but I'm a poor pensioner on a limited fixed income with a very finite amount of disposable.  I am pretty much stuck with DC, and have to make the best of it.  There are tweaks that can be brought in to play to improve slow running, fine tuning of mechs and a strict cleaning regime, careful track laying, and such.  I have improved some locos by tightening or loosening the keeper plate screws by a quarter turn at a time; matters are so critical that every little helps.

 

But if my comment that there has been no improvement in DC technology for 40 years is justified and not just something I think is so because nobody has told me otherwise, then there must be room for improving said tech.  We have pretty good RTR mechs, where are the DC controllers to get the best out of them?  Are bi-directional DC stayalives possible, and how effective would they be at low voltage anyway; if they were effective at low voltage would they compromise controllability at higher speeds?  Might a basic chip-controlled DC system that worked of a permanent 12vdc and some sort of NFC controlling the chip, not DCC, be possible?  Would push button or touch screen be preferable on DC controllers to eliminate the occasional mechanical issues with phsyical switches and knobs?  In short, can my locos give better slow performance, and how?

[woodenhead]

@Clive Mortimore Just in case people think I am taking the mickey, it's important for me to add, I've seen how you wire and it is nothing less than admirable.  If I could wire like that I would not use DCC, there would be no need.

[Dagworth]

7 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

As I have been included in this conversation, I remain happy with my Gaugemaster controllers. That is despite working for Gaugemaster many moons ago when one of the two partners was the worse boss I have ever worked for. If any past or present day employees are reading this it wasn't Rod.

 

I understand where Andy is coming from with regard to "us" buying expensive locos and still using our old controllers. Now as a Luddite DC user is there a controller that will make my locos and DMUs behave better than what I presently use?

 

Now so people can make sense of what Woody has posted.

 

 

The outside.

 

Inside the lid, since then the wires for the signals have been added.

 

The bank of Gaugemaster self latching relays for point frog switching.

 

All wires are labeled both ends and documented.

Have you seen the layout wiring photo I put up in my Ipswich thread? I’m gradually getting the hang of this wiring lark! 
 

Andi