Exclusive NCB wagons from Rapido for BRM/RMweb/World of Railways

[GeoffBird]

I would love to run some of these on my layout but the website does not allow for shipping destinations outasixde gthe UK!  I have sent them an e-mail but no reply and there is no telephone or e-mail address on their website.  By the time I am able to order some they will all be gone.  

[AY Mod]

8 minutes ago, GeoffBird said:

I would love to run some of these on my layout but the website does not allow for shipping destinations outasixde gthe UK!  I have sent them an e-mail but no reply and there is no telephone or e-mail address on their website.  By the time I am able to order some they will all be gone.  

 

I have raised the question for another customer today Geoff. I'll let you know the outcome.

 

[Zunnan]

31 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

Perhaps, but I'm trying to find excuses to run NCB and BR stuff on the same (small) layout!

 

 

Griff was a good location for that, especially around the crossing and junctions at Bermuda. The Midland had running rights over the LNWR branch to Stockingford, Griff Clara Pit locomotives worked the canal exchange and internal trips and Griff No.4 locos worked the tip trains and brickworks. Plus in NCB/BR days theres plenty of records of Big Green engines working the branch, which thanks to the severity of curvature going out towards the main line often held back at Bermuda to charge the branch flat out. Apparently the internal tip workings were good at borrowing BR wagons and losing them in 60ft of water in the tip too!

 

I wonder who's doing Griff RCH wagons, and I wonder where I could get a 14" Andrew Barclay from...🤤

[RapidoLinny]

8 minutes ago, Zunnan said:

I wonder who's doing Griff RCH wagons, and I wonder where I could get a 14" Andrew Barclay from...🤤

Funny you should mention that...

https://rapidotrains.co.uk/product/griff/

Edited July 19, 2023 by RapidoLinny

[Ian Hargrave]

3 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Speaking as one of those “poor sods”,I wholeheartedly agree. But I have survived. Though even today I do wonder what the long term effects on the natives of Abercwmboi,Mountain Ash,Aberaman and Godreaman (me) were. 
The creation of the NCB was heralded as a bright new dawn for the coal industry but it perpetrated some additional horrors…Aberfan being the obvious ; but just over the hill it created a more insidious one in the form of the Phurnacite Plant. I can vividly recall foggy yellow rotten egg days rolling up the valley towards the back of the house.My late father was manager of the PD pipe works just across the valley so heaven alone knows what the effects on his health were. Passing the plant by train,either by the Vale of Neath line or by the Abercynon branch was to be a Wagnerian Gotterdammerung like experience. Yes.Truly a vision of hell. And that smell..

 

And a footnote to my earlier post above. The terraced back to back street in which I lived ….which is still standing….is named “Pleasant View Street “ .It certainly had a grandstand view of the plant. 
   A year ago,I paid a visit to that street just as a trip down memory lane. Times move on and instead of my father’s Morris Oxford,outside the door of the house was parked a BMW 4X4.

[Philou]

1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

outside the door of the house was parked a BMW 4X4.

 

'spect it's the not-quite-so-well-off moving out of Cardiff and buying in the Valleys. When I were a lad and Noah was in short pants, that's what us young Cardiffians did - though I couldn't afford the house AND a car, let alone the equivalent of a BMW 4x4! (No, no violins thank you. At that time the closest equivalent might have been a BMW 2002 tilux).

[Covkid]

2 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

Perhaps, but I'm trying to find excuses to run NCB and BR stuff on the same (small) layout!

 

 

That really isn't such a problem Captain, at least for me.  The piccies that Andy posted are very very close to my heart and are a project for me. The Holly Bank colliery ran a line from it's mine and washery to exchange sidings with BR nee LMS nee LNWR at Essington on the Cannock line and there was a written agreement for "big! railway locos to visit the colliery for water. Somewhere there is a published photo of a BR class 4 mogul (not sure if 76xxx or 43xxx) crossing Broad Lane light loco, presumably doing that. 

 

The colliery engines conveyed "big railway" wagons between Hilton Main (which replaced Holly Bank) and the "BR" exchange sidings, but also conveyed Holly Bank wagons down the mineral branch to the canal basin at Short Heath.  So within this "triangle" you get BR exchange sidings and the passing main line traffic, you get BR steam light loco on the Holly Bank railway, and you get the "private" mineral railway down to the wharf at Short Heath. 

 

For me this line is heaven sent so I can used BR trip freight locos such as "super D" 2F 3F 4F 5MT and 7F as well as 2MT, then Type 2 diesels. O nthe Holly Bank railway I am really spoilt for choice with RTR 16" Hunslet from Rapido, RTR 18" "Austerity" from various sources, YEC Janus  in NCB blue of which two different ones worked the line after dieselisation in 1959. In addition, I have commissioned James Hilton of Planet Industrials to design and manufacture a kit for the Bagnall DL2 which for me is based on the Bachmann "Drewry" chassis. These distinctive diesels which I regard as "Bagnall Drewrys"  although I am not sure there was actually ann "Drewry" in the design. The only outstanding piece of equipment I need is the Jones diesel crane which managed the basin at Short Heath and I suspect tripped the coal box flats between the landsale yard and the wharf.  These flats were each loaded with three wooden boxes at the colliery and were discharged one box at a time into canal boats for the journey to either Birchills (Walsall)or Wolverhampton power stations. 

 

To me the operation which ended in 1969 has much appeal            

[woodenhead]

3 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

Perhaps, but I'm trying to find excuses to run NCB and BR stuff on the same (small) layout!

 

What if the NCB wagons were perched on a little bridge over the layout?

 

Sort of an NCB line to a remote tip that crosses the BR land at the entrance to the fiddleyard, makes a nice scenic break.

 

Or if you cannot get the bridge in, how about it crosses on the level and you could have the end of a siding or two that could contain four NCB wagons.

 

In both cases no actual movement of the wagons, all static but an excuse for 4 NCB wagons on a BR layout.

[Ian Hargrave]

50 minutes ago, Philou said:

 

'spect it's the not-quite-so-well-off moving out of Cardiff and buying in the Valleys. When I were a lad and Noah was in short pants, that's what us young Cardiffians did - though I couldn't afford the house AND a car, let alone the equivalent of a BMW 4x4! (No, no violins thank you. At that time the closest equivalent might have been a BMW 2002 tilux).

You’re probably right. That’s something that’ll increasingly happen with TFW’s ongoing investment in Valleys Lines .Hopefully though that will keep the BMW’s etc,off the streets & roads which are almost choked to capacity and blocked by parked cars. Anyway ,enough of that and back to these wagons the prospect of which has just forced an order for a set of 4 upfront from me.With industrials becoming increasingly popular due to some quite superb models it would be a shame to miss out. Well done Andy& co.

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Ian Hargrave
spelling

[doilum]

On 18/07/2023 at 14:20, AY Mod said:

 

Certainly to the turn of the sixties into seventies.

And the 80s.

[AY Mod]

45 minutes ago, Covkid said:

The only outstanding piece of equipment I need is the Jones diesel crane which managed the basin at Short Heath and I suspect tripped the coal box flats between the landsale yard and the wharf

 

I'd say it's a safe bet from this pic.

 

[figworthy]

4 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

Perhaps, but I'm trying to find excuses to run NCB and BR stuff on the same (small) layout!

 

 

Have a look at the Ledston Branch (near Castleford).  BR metals, but it looks as though the NCB ran trains on there as well in the 1980s.

 

Adrian

[Bazza]

Great idea. I'm not in the market for these but surely they are just too perfect to be internal user wagons!

 

Bazza

[AY Mod]

12 minutes ago, Bazza said:

surely they are just too perfect to be internal user wagons!

 

They started off looking OK, the rest is modelling.

[Captain Kernow]

For the avoidance of doubt, I do have a viable scheme for the next cameo layout, which will feature BR and NCB stock in the same scene, but thanks for all the suggestions and advice!

 

[The Johnster]

20 hours ago, Ribird said:

If you don’t mind me asking, when did these wagons first appear? 1947, or a bit later once PO wagons were repainted? 

 

Tbh I don't really know, but the pre-1947 pre-nationalisation collieriers would have certainly had a need for internal user wagons, and would have had to nominate some of their stock for this purpose after the RCH pooled the existing PO stock (1938? Certainly during WW2 hostilities).  Runs between pithead screens and central washeries, colliery and nearby coke ovens, landsale, and in some cases between collieries connected by private railways like the Wemyss Private Railway in Fife, as well as a few for general transportation use within the colliery systems.  I believe the 'X' marking was in general use before 1947, but was probably applied over whatever remained of the previous liveries.  'For Internal Use Only' and similar branding would probably have been used.

 

But this is a bit of a backwater in terms of enthusiast interest at the time, and is poorly recorded.  PO mineral wagons were not repainted by BR for some time, at least the first decade after 1948.  It would probably be possible to find out when the NCB started painting internal user wagons, but I doubt if it was immediately.

[doilum]

39 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

Tbh I don't really know, but the pre-1947 pre-nationalisation collieriers would have certainly had a need for internal user wagons, and would have had to nominate some of their stock for this purpose after the RCH pooled the existing PO stock (1938? Certainly during WW2 hostilities).  Runs between pithead screens and central washeries, colliery and nearby coke ovens, landsale, and in some cases between collieries connected by private railways like the Wemyss Private Railway in Fife, as well as a few for general transportation use within the colliery systems.  I believe the 'X' marking was in general use before 1947, but was probably applied over whatever remained of the previous liveries.  'For Internal Use Only' and similar branding would probably have been used.

 

But this is a bit of a backwater in terms of enthusiast interest at the time, and is poorly recorded.  PO mineral wagons were not repainted by BR for some time, at least the first decade after 1948.  It would probably be possible to find out when the NCB started painting internal user wagons, but I doubt if it was immediately.

I wouldn't be surprised if the painting was immediate. The nationalisation of the industry was a big deal at the time and this was an easy way to make a big statement. Under new ownership. The new regional management had to take control of previously rival collieries in close proximity. I guess there was competition with the new British Railways to secure the ownership of wagons which had escaped pooling.

[doilum]

2 hours ago, figworthy said:

 

Have a look at the Ledston Branch (near Castleford).  BR metals, but it looks as though the NCB ran trains on there as well in the 1980s.

 

Adrian

 

2 hours ago, figworthy said:

 

Have a look at the Ledston Branch (near Castleford).  BR metals, but it looks as though the NCB ran trains on there as well in the 1980s.

 

Adrian

Wheldale colliery is on the south bank of the riverAire but was given running rights for trains of dirt can side tippers to access the tips on the north bank via the iron bridge.

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, doilum said:

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I wouldn't be surprised if the painting was immediate. The nationalisation of the industry was a big deal at the time and this was an easy way to make a big statement

 

Good points.  It was a pretty big deal, with collieries displaying big notices at the entrances 'This Colliery is now run by the National Coal Board on behalf of the PEOPLE', Socialism in action, the new world of fairness and justice, the end of depression, low wages, unemployment, and poverty, and of strikes.  The mines were publicly owned now, and the whole of society would benefit, not just mine owners and shareholders.  Labour relations had always been prickly in the industry, an inevitable result of the speculative and necessarily parsimonious nature of capital investment in it and the cameraderie of underground workers who were out of sight of the higher echelons of management.  As we all know, it was a false dawn, but at the time it was full of hope and confidence. 

 

But, on the other hand, 1947 was to begin with a hard and long winter that resulted in coal shortages across the nation, already in the grip of an austerity economy with rationing far more severe than any that had been experienced during the hostilities as the nation struggled with it's balance of payments.  There was little time to worry about what colour internal user wagons were painted, and little enough paint, come to that.  Paint was a valuable export product, and all industrial production was still under the direct control of the Ministry of Supply, which is why BR, nationalised the following year, were unable to paint XPOs (or unfitted wooden opens which were put into traffic with bare wood planks, not even varnished or creosoted).  The XPOs were already filthy and faded, having not seen a paint brush since 1938 at least, and were by the mid-50s wearing a livery of coal and brake block dust...

[Covkid]

9 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

I'd say it's a safe bet from this pic.

 

 

I have yet to find a photo of a locomotive working at the wharf Andy, but as you have already posted, there is evidence of the crane hauling the wagons to the landsale yard which is several hundred yards beyond the crane shed.  It is my assumption that the colliery loco worked traffic from Hilton Main colliery to the landsale yard and back, and the crane tripped the box flats over the road and down to the wharf. If the crane drew the flats from the Landsale yard down to his point, it could then run to the end of the line, rotate 180 degrees then "climb up" onto it's discharging track, empty the boxes into the adjacent narrow boats. The crane could then couple onto the now emptied wagons and take them back over the road crossing and back to the landsale yard which Andy posted previously. 

 

From what I understand the Holly Bank colliery initially used a steam crane here from approximately 1907, replaced by a newer machine, before that was replaced by the Jones crane in the 1950s.  Not sure when, but this Jones crane eventually made it's home at the Battlefield line in Shackerstone before it's move to Pitsford in Northamptonshire.  

[No Decorum]

I’ve ordered a pack of four. Every rule can be broken and I dare say that wagons may have moved between collieries but I would guess that any given colliery would possess a mixture of wagon types but use a similar painting style. Thus to see prototypes of all four models together at any given colliery would be unlkely. The pictures posted seem to support this but I’m very willing to be corrected by experts.

 

More appearing with different running numbers in the same painting styles would be welcome.

[RedgateModels]

my problem will be working out a suitable move on Summat Colliery for them, might have to be one or two at a time, that kickback siding next to the coal stage may have to be finally added ........

[Joseph_Pestell]

18 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

Perhaps, but I'm trying to find excuses to run NCB and BR stuff on the same (small) layout!

 

 

Can't remember the name now, but there was a layout (featured on RMW?) which managed this with tracks on two levels.

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Can't remember the name now, but there was a layout (featured on RMW?) which managed this with tracks on two levels.

Walker Marine?

[Joseph_Pestell]

22 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Well with my ‘Black Diamonds’ project it was rude not to 😉 

 

Maybe we can resurrect ‘Britmod’ as ‘NCBmod’ 😁

 

One of the problems with modular layouts is a lack of distance on the main line between the modelled locations. But a series of small colliery shunting layouts gets round that problem and makes modular more attractive.

The steep gradients of these lines caused the trains to be short which is another plus for modelling.