BR 16t Minerals, By Accurascale

[MarkSG]

5 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

1950 onwards. Packs A B And C are the early writing style. All my photos have year of build on them. 

 

That's useful. My current project is based in the early 1950s, but all the open wagons I currently possess (literally all of them - I've just had a rummage through the cupboard as well as looking at the fiddle yard!) are wooden bodied types. So a few steel bodied mineral wagons wouldn't go amiss, even if they would probably still have been a minority at the time and location I'm modelling. Plus, of course, they would be relatively new then, so they'd only need light weathering.

[Dunsignalling]

16 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

 

That's useful. My current project is based in the early 1950s, but all the open wagons I currently possess (literally all of them - I've just had a rummage through the cupboard as well as looking at the fiddle yard!) are wooden bodied types. So a few steel bodied mineral wagons wouldn't go amiss, even if they would probably still have been a minority at the time and location I'm modelling. Plus, of course, they would be relatively new then, so they'd only need light weathering.

Wagons of essentially similar appearance had been introduced during WW2, Having been constructed for the Ministry of War Transport (MoWT) and painted in red oxide.

 

The LMS also built such wagons for their own use, and the LNER a riveted version.

 

These all passed into BR ownership but many were still carrying their original livery and markings in the early fifties.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[SKELTON15]

Accurascale could produce the first accurate model of the first batch of ICI soda ash wagons as the only external change was the addition of a sheet bar. Thanks to hmrspaul, David Larkin and others, the information I have is that: 

Vehicle Numbers were 652-801 (120 vehicles in total).

Converted by ICI Mond Division from 16 ton mineral wagons (including ex-Ministry wagons) at Avenue Workshops, Northwich between December 1969 and December 1970.

Owned by ICI Mond Division

B.R. Design Diagram 6/500

 

Batch 2 of these wagons was also based on 16t mineral wagons but side doors were removed and the sides and ends extended upwards. Converted by C. C. Crump & Co. of Connah’s Quay between November 1971 and March 1972.

Batch 3 was based on MSO diagram 1/183 iron ore tipplers converted in 1975  C. C. Crump & Co. of Connah’s Quay (probably)

Batch 1 never received TOPS codes or numbers as far as I can tell. I have not seen any evidence of batch 1 running with batch 3 wagons.

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

Just now, Dunsignalling said:

Wagons of essentially similar appearance had been introduced during WW2, Having been constructed for the Ministry of War Transport (MoWT) ...

... the LMS also had essentially similar welded ones and the LNER had essentially similar rivetted ones too.

[Dunsignalling]

2 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

... the LMS also had essentially similar welded ones and the LNER had essentially similar rivetted ones too.

Beat me to it!

[scots region]

I’m honestly a little surprised in myself that I didn’t make the connection between the ‘powering Britain’ range and the 16 tonners. A fantastic announcement! These will be a license to print money for Accurascale, now to check the wallet trap.

 

ScR.

[Wickham Green too]

10 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Beat me to it!

Sorrrreeeee !

 

What I can never understand is that the Southern built 1500 of the LNER rivetted wagons ( more than any other builder ) yet they were, arguably, more accustomed to welding than the other railways at the time.

[Mophead45143]

35 minutes ago, Gremlin99 said:

Forgive my ignorance, but if I was looking for some that would make a rake of 9-12 wagons (I've not much space) that'd be representative of the current rake on the GCR, which packs would be most appropriate?

 

Seeing as I have the Bachmann model of 9F "92214"....

 

Thanks folks.

 

Packs A - C represent the steam era wagons, early 1950's - mid 1960's.

 

But, if you want to be pedantic and accurately model the preserved rake on the GCR, then most of these are actually vacuum braked wagons that have been painted grey to represent the unfitted trains as they appeared in steam days. For these you would have to re-spray the up and coming bauxite wagons in run two!

 

Cameron

[Dunsignalling]

15 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Sorrrreeeee !

 

What I can never understand is that the Southern built 1500 of the LNER rivetted wagons ( more than any other builder ) yet they were, arguably, more accustomed to welding than the other railways at the time.

Making work for under-employed riveters yet to be retrained as welders?

 

More seriously, I presume the specification to have been laid down by the customer.

 

John

Edited September 1, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Gremlin99]

49 minutes ago, Mophead45143 said:

 

Packs A - C represent the steam era wagons, early 1950's - mid 1960's.

 

But, if you want to be pedantic and accurately model the preserved rake on the GCR, then most of these are actually vacuum braked wagons that have been painted grey to represent the unfitted trains as they appeared in steam days. For these you would have to re-spray the up and coming bauxite wagons in run two!

 

Cameron

Thanks! I’m happy with packs A-C. I’m not a very pedantic modeller, just happy with something that feels right, vs being 100% spot on perfect. ☺️

[stovepipe]

Packs F & G (of the 1/109 rivetted type) are also steam era. Indeed Pack F has a 1951-built wagon included, which is the earliest one modelled in original livery as far as I can tell.

 

In terms of production, there were approximately 17,000 diag 1/108s, and 5,500 diag 1/109s with 1950 and 1951 build plates. Peak production was between 1953 and 1957 however.

[The Johnster]

I believe the first of this family of 16ton all-steel minerals was introduced on the LMS in the mid-thirties with the LNER following suit fairly soon afterwards.  IIRC coal wagons were pooled by the RCH in 1937, the owners being paid compensation for their property, and the big four began to build their own coal wagons (the LNER had always maintained a large fleet of it's own coal wagons, following on from the NER, and the LMS had some as well following on from the Lancashire & Yorkshire).  The building of LNER design rivetted steel 16tonners by the Southern may have occurred during the war under the auspices of the Ministry of Supply in a similar way to the building of vans by Ashford to the '2 plus 2' planked style for all of the big four because they happened to have a stock of pre-cut timber available for these vans.  21ton all-steel wagons had been produced by several PO operators and the GWR (the 'Felix Pole' wagons) before this date.

 

The Ministry of Supply was absorbed into the Ministry of Transport after the war, and ordered a large number of 16ton all-steel minerals, which were very similar to what became the standard BR 16tonner.  These were supplied in a bauxite livery but should not be confused with BR fitted minerals. The BR Diagram 1/106 was the original BR version and produced in the largest numbers from 1950 until about 1962.  For a layout set in, say, 1953 (mine is nominally set 1948-58 and this is the halfway point), they will be making inroads into the 7-plank dominance, as they were produced in large volumes from the outset.  At this time, and in fact for the previous five years, BR had been culling XPO 7-plankers that required anything more than simple patchup repairs.  This process was accellerated considerably after around 1956 due to colliery closures, the increased popularity of central heating, and the increasing dominance of oil as a marine fuel.

 

From around 1959-60, Council Housing began to be build for central heating, increasingly oil-fired, and demand for coal began it's long decline.  On the railway, this meant that 7-plank minerals became rare and were pretty much eliminated by about 1963.  So the overall picture for the 50s decade was a steady increase in the proportion of all-steel 16tonners to wooden 7-plankers, but the decrease in wooden 7-plankers was less steady; it was continuous, though.  I would suggest as ball-park figures that about a third of 9' wheelbase coal wagons were steel 16tonners by about 1955, a half by about 1957, and more or less 80% by the turn of the decade.  I can't remember seeing any wooden coal wagons after 1962, but there were probably a few survivors about.

 

The 1950s saw a change in general merchandise goods wagons as well.  The replacement of open wagons with vans for 'smalls' had been going on for many years, but at the start of the 50s there were noticeably more vans than opens, and probably two-thirds vans and one third opens would be about right for 1960.  Similarly, the proportion of fitted to unfitted stock increased steadily during the decade, as BR got to grips with scrapping older vehicles and refurbishing the big four stock it had inherited, giving them vacuum brakes and disc wheels.  Effectively no pre-grouping general merchandise stock survived this process by 1960, though brake vans lasted a bit longer.

 

It's a fascinating period to model, with pre-nationalisation and changeover liveries adding to the fun.

[Downer]

Is there a 16t expert out there who could list the diagram numbers of the variations that Bachmann have produced?

[Covkid]

23 minutes ago, Downer said:

Is there a 16t expert out there who could list the diagram numbers of the variations that Bachmann have produced?

Maybe watch Paul Isle's video at the Great Central railway. I think he refers to the initial batches as 108 and 109 but there were many detail differences even in those two diagrams.  

[Wickham Green too]

12 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Making work for under-employed riveters yet to be retrained as welders? ...

Most under-employed riveters and welders were probably still waiting to be demobbed in 1946 !!?!

10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

... the building of vans by Ashford to the '2 plus 2' planked style for all of the big four because they happened to have a stock of pre-cut timber available  ...

Well, for three of the four - but that's a hell of a lot of pre-cut timber that happened to be lurking in the back of a cupboard .......... more likely they had found a SOURCE of suitable-sized timber offcuts that were looking for a good home ( still an awful lot, tho' ).

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, br2975 said:

.

Rickard's Record Vol.1 shows a former Rhymney 0-6-2T down freight passing Cefn On with  a Cardiff East Dock working in 1956.

.

The first wagon is a wooden five plank open loaded with an ingot mould, followed by a relatively new 16 ton mineral carrying something (potentially) similar.

.

The train also contains a G.K.I.S. internal user wagon, and the bottom section of a slag ladle.

.

I suspect the train started out a the Dowlais foundry.

No doubt. As you probably know ingot moulds came in a variety of sizes and the smaller ones were not too big or heavy to accomodate in a 16 ton wagon or - obviously - a 5 plank general goods wagon.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I am no expert, but came to the conclusion that Bachmann's 16T minerals represented diagrams 1/100 ('slope sided') 1/102, 104, 106, 108. (There were odd numbered diagrams too, but not modelled.)

 

It should be kept in mind that BR inherited a group of designs from the LMS, LNER and Ministry of Transport, (and previous titles for Govt. procurement) and continued building from orders placed by these from 1948, and it was over two years later (Q4 1950) before the BR diagrams 1/108 (welded) and 1/109 (riveted) entered production.

 

Ths all important aspect for realism is to make a completely messy mix up, the timber bodied precursors steadily diminishing in numbers as the steel construction volume built, and all the different diagrams typically indiscriminately mixed. (There will have been exceptions for fully braked trials and other experiments; and sometimes a coal drag got a distinctly shiny new group of wagons in it, presumably on their first loaded trip.)

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, Islesy said:

Well, Pack H is based on photos taken in 1975, so technically it’s TOPS era!

As I mentioned previously there was a lot of overlap in terms of the dates of detail information painted on vehicle bodies and underframes and with such a massive fleet - albeit no doubt starting to decline by the time TOPS arrived - old markings lingered on.    The only fairly reliable dates that you can arrive at are 'not before' for the various changes/additions to markings

 

At least a 1975 photo gives a valid pointer towards the introduction of metric tare weights on individual wagons although I don't think TOPS had been reprogrammed to metric by then.  And having checked my 1975 WR Loads Book (amended to July of that year)  it was still using Long Tons and referring to wagons by type name and not what we think of as 'TOPS codes'.  The June 1976 'TOPS Wagon Codes' book definitely shows MC for 16 ton Mins. (and O as the unfitted suffix) but that was the 4th edition (and I don't have any earlier ones unless they're hiding amidst something else?).   The 1976 Codes book also notes that wagon weights are quoted in metric tonnes.

 

'TOPS' of itself amounts to basically a 3 year span simply for its coming into use.  The first trial sites were opened in 1972 (no more than one, or possibly two, per BR Region).  The next batch of trial sites, in some cases introducing new or different types of equipment at local level, arrived in 1973 with  major cutover originally planned to start later that year.  Cutover continued in, and in many places didn't start until, 1974 then carried on into 1975.  Individual wagons were only added to the live wagon files as cutover took place so even in 1975 is was possible for wagons not to be on TOPS while some of us had by then been working with it for the best part of two years.  

 

And don't forget that the master rolling stock library data files were also being continually updated as additional wagon code information emerged or as wagons for which no records existed were found by the cutover teams.  For examples what we knew in 1973 as a CAB (=any traffic freight brakevan) was fairly unlikely to be a CAB by mid 1976.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

Just placed my order for four packs (1x Diag.1/108 and 3 x Diag.1/109). 👍

 

These will be 'empties' on my layout.

 

Brian

[PeterStiles]

It may be simpler and quicker if we just ask the few people who aren't going to buy any of these to post...

[cctransuk]

4 minutes ago, PeterStiles said:

It may be simpler and quicker if we just ask the few people who aren't going to buy any of these to post...

 

Me Sir, please Sir!!

 

I have gathered more than enough Airfix, Parkside, Cambrian and Trix versions over the years - not to mention the dozens of hybrid kitbashes.

 

CJI.

[Downer]

Paradoxically, I’ll be more likely to buy some if the improvement on the Bachmann wagons is only slight, because there’s no way I can afford to replace all of my current 30-wagon rake.

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

The June 1976 'TOPS Wagon Codes' book definitely shows MC for 16 ton Mins. (and O as the unfitted suffix) but that was the 4th edition (and I don't have any earlier ones unless they're hiding amidst something else?).   The 1976 Codes book also notes that wagon weights are quoted in metric tonnes.

 

The 2nd edition is very similar - the coding had been sorted by then (April 1974). MCO

 

My photos show it took years for the TOPS codes to be applied - whereas the metric weights seem to have come in quite quickly in the later 1970s. Rather an aside by private owner wagons don't seem to have been TOPS coded much at all for many years - but the yellow plates were prepared and applied quite quickly. I have an SMBP yellow plate - there were large numbers for sale at Euston collectors corner as they were all wasted as BP and Shell broke up their trading partnership before application of the numbers. 

 

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

No doubt. As you probably know ingot moulds came in a variety of sizes and the smaller ones were not too big or heavy to accomodate in a 16 ton wagon or - obviously - a 5 plank general goods wagon.

I read the original as being about wagons written for INGOT MOULD. Personally I didn't see any except the Iron ore tipplers with holes cut in the sides after a nasty accident loading a solid sided wagon. But, yes there will have been plenty of earlier wagons used for this traffic. 

 

15 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Making work for under-employed riveters yet to be retrained as welders?

 

 

Yes a possible reason. There were suddenly large numbers of skilled men (and women) whom had been building war machines that could be unemployed. The more obvious result of this is the tens of thousands of what we call MoT minerals built at various military workshops (RoFs) and these could be welded or rivetted - they became the pre 108 BR diagrams. 

 

The best published is Fidczuk, Peter. (1991) Modellers Backtrack vol. 1 (part 3) pp 124 - 133. and (part 4) pp 148 - 156.

Also more accessible is the Larkin Volume 2 I mentioned yesterday that has all you want on these pre 108 minerals including the LMS and LNER ones. 

 

Paul who must sell the last of my unopened Airfix kits!

[The Outcast]

I'll get a few if they do some nice factory weathered versions. For some reason I've got an obsession with those Bachmann 16 ton weathered wagons - Accurascale wagons weathered in that style or better would be fab. 

 

*I fully expect to be beaten for this opinion*

Edited September 2, 2023 by The Outcast
Funny

[Dunsignalling]

30 minutes ago, The Outcast said:

I'll get a few if they do some nice factory weathered versions. For some reason I've got an obsession with those Bachmann 16 ton weathered wagons - Accurascale wagons weathered in that style or better would be fab. 

 

*I fully expect to be beaten for this opinion*

 

I tend to agree (with the first bit), but with the proviso that those with shiny rust need a blow-over with matt varnish! 😉 I'd like to see a bit of texture in the "rust", too. 

 

I'm hanging fire on ordering for a bit following an earlier post from one of the AS insiders stating that the end variations represented in the pics of the packs have not yet been finalised. 

 

I don't want to inadvertently place orders all of one type and have to alter them later.

 

John

Edited September 2, 2023 by Dunsignalling