57xx Pannier Tank Family, By Accurascale

[cages_cage]

19 hours ago, Csalem said:

Or is he....

 

(Rev Awdry suggested in his book on the Island of Sodor that Duck took the number of another Pannier before he went to the island).

 

Be nice if over time if Accurascale did all the Railway Series locos, but as their real counterparts. Would get an Accurascale A4, Black 5, etc then.

Someone had pointed out... the real 5741 had a top feed, so the Accurascale 5741 as illustrated really is "Duck"!

 

Edit: per the post below, 5741/"Duck" did not have a top feed as-built - but did 5741 gain the top feed by the time it gained the GWR livery...?

Edited November 25, 2023 by cages_cage

[Steve Purves]

1 hour ago, cages_cage said:

Someone had pointed out... the real 5741 had a top feed, so the Accurascale 5741 as illustrated really is "Duck"!

 

5741 was a 1929 build pannier so would have been without top feed as that feature wasn't introduced for at least another decade. It did gain on in later life however. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Steve Purves

[Miss Prism]

13 hours ago, Pteremy said:

On a point of detail, was the 1948 batch 9662 to 9672 identical to the 1949 batch 9673-82? If they were then I can preorder 9681 with the intention to renumber to 9670.

 

They were to the same diagram, and there's no reason to suppose there would be any diffences between lots 370 and 378.

 

 

[tomparryharry]

Well, well, well. What do we have here then, panniers without topfeed? Will I have any? Oh yes! The requests have fallen on deaf ears for a decade or more. 

 

I hope Accurascale sell mountains of them. They certainly deserve to. It just goes to show what happens when a customer focused business takes heed. llantrisant had about 5-6 down the years, plus the topfeed (8750) variant, so I can, in theory, achieve a full stud. 

 

I need to dig out some reference books....

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, Pteremy said:

 

So amongst all you pannier rivet counters no one knows? My guess is that they were the same - i could live the fact that they were not, assuming the differences, if any, were minor. It would just be nice to know, one way or the other.

 

I might do, as like a few other people I have done quite a bit of research into them, but it was only a few hours ago. Most of my notes are handwritten I'm afraid. Then it's finding them. I will have a look, but I'm out most of the weekend. Rainhill tomorrow (after football) and then gigging on Sunday.

 

The definitive source, unless someone wants to fill in the gaps as unlike some Irwell volumes there isn't a photograph of every single locomotive in it. Trying to find photos of a few thousand locomotives must be hard. None of them are locomotives in the distance, they are proper detailed views. They didn't even attempt the pre grouping locomotives unfortunately.

 

I think this is sold out now at the publishers.

 

https://rail-books.co.uk/products/the-pannier-papers-no-4-the-57xx-engines-87xx-96xx-97xx-9781906919481

 

Best I can find on a quick Google.

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p416923824/eb6d45991

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p416923824/e776fab1a

 

 

 

As for the 9700 to 9710  series. Nah, I'll stick with the two K's kits I've got. Got to have something to do and they do turn up quite often for less than £20. Just need a Comet or High Level chassis and a few extras and Bob is your Mum's brother. ISTR that Branchlines do the pump.

 

I doubt there is much above the chassis that is the same. You would probably need a totally different set of tooling unless it was planned from the outset.

 

 

There was one of those Samhongsa models a few years ago. Turn up quite frequently. Not a fan personally. Always thought they looked better unpainted.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/stockdetail?sid=608543

 

 

 

Jason

Edited November 25, 2023 by Steamport Southport
Linking to the actual photos might help!

[tomparryharry]

I've been away for a while, so once again, late for the party...

 

Have I missed anything?

 

Just a question, if I may. What sort of gearing, and weight proposals?  I'm just curious, that's all. Initial photos look rather good. Power to their elbow, I say. Nice!

[David Stannard]

8 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

Well, well, well. What do we have here then, panniers without topfeed? Will I have any? Oh yes! The requests have fallen on deaf ears for a decade or more. 

 

I hope Accurascale sell mountains of them. They certainly deserve to. It just goes to show what happens when a customer focused business takes heed. llantrisant had about 5-6 down the years, plus the topfeed (8750) variant, so I can, in theory, achieve a full stud. 

 

I need to dig out some reference books....

 

 

I wonder if Accurascale and Rapido's offerings are going force the "big players" to lift their game, the industry hasn't seen this sort of shake up since the introduction of Mainline to the markets, back then Hornby and Lima had been quite content pushing out rather mediocre models for decades, a prime example is the Black Five which has taken Hornby at least 50 years for them to maybe get it right.

[BVMR21]

50 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

I've been away for a while, so once again, late for the party...

 

Have I missed anything?

 

Just a question, if I may. What sort of gearing, and weight proposals?  I'm just curious, that's all. Initial photos look rather good. Power to their elbow, I say. Nice!

Believe the weight is around 216 grams.

[NHY 581]

25 minutes ago, David Stannard said:

 

 

I wonder if Accurascale and Rapido's offerings are going force the "big players" to lift their game, the industry hasn't seen this sort of shake up since the introduction of Mainline to the markets, back then Hornby and Lima had been quite content pushing out rather mediocre models for decades, a prime example is the Black Five which has taken Hornby at least 50 years for them to maybe get it right.

 

That's not really the subject of the thread and is probably better off debated elsewhere. The simple fact is that this will be a bang up to date model delivered at a decent price point, but comparible with the latest 94xx from Bachmann. 

 

As for Hornby and their black five,  much as I have little or no brand loyalty to them, you're being a little unfair. 

 

You have to remember that in your quoted time period of fifty years, the design processes, materials available along with the production techniques ( and manufacturing facilities ) now employed have advanced dramatically, something that Accurascale are exploiting rather well and from which we now are undoubtedly benefiting from. 

 

The main difference is that Accurascale are listening to us and producing the items that we, the modellers want and will buy to use. 

 

Right, back to researching Great Western goods only bucolic byways for these Panniers to play in. 

 

Rob

 

 

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, David Stannard said:

 

 

I wonder if Accurascale and Rapido's offerings are going force the "big players" to lift their game, the industry hasn't seen this sort of shake up since the introduction of Mainline to the markets, back then Hornby and Lima had been quite content pushing out rather mediocre models for decades, a prime example is the Black Five which has taken Hornby at least 50 years for them to maybe get it right.

I sort of doubt it.  Red box seem to be concentrating on their TT120 efforts, and I doubt we’ll see much more than re-releases in new liveries from them for a while, and Blue Box appear to be a bit stagnant in terms of new toolings of prototypes that have not been done in RTR form to current standards before.  The mid-sized players like Dapol and Heljan have upped their games a bit, though!

 

Hope I’m wrong of course!  Hornby surprised me with their Collett 57’ suburbans three years ago and the large prairie a year or so later, and Bachmann’s late announcement policy might yet be concealing all sorts, but I’m not holding my breath…

 

NHY Rob’s point about companies responding to our suggestions is a valid one, and my wishlist hit rate has been fairly successful with three recent bullseyes, Rapido small prairies, Dapol Diagram N auto-trailer, and now these new panniers, all for a smallish and fairly obscure South Wales area semi-fictional BLT.  Not, I think, insignificant that Rapido Andy and Accurascale Fran, and Islesy, are regular contributors here and we are actively asked for ideas by these companies!

 

Now, if I can just persuade somebody to make my 1854 or  2721 half-cab panniers…

Edited November 25, 2023 by The Johnster

[David Stannard]

37 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

 

That's not really the subject of the thread and is probably better off debated elsewhere. The simple fact is that this will be a bang up to date model delivered at a decent price point, but comparible with the latest 94xx from Bachmann. 

 

 

 

 In many respects it is, the first decent RTR Pannier was introduced by Mainline in 1981, for it's day it was a fantastic model but as we all know it had a number of inaccuarcies, that said it was far in advance of what the "others" were offering at the time, years down the track Bachmann updated the Mainline model to the degree but still with a number of inaccuracies, the chief of those as many of us Pre War modellers know is the topfeed, Bachmann has prided itself over the years stating they make highly detailed and accurate models for the ready to run market, yes they may make good models but they also have their compromises. I still remember the release announcement of their Manor's back in the early 90's, at the time it was heralded to the sounds of trumpets and lauded as the most accurate model of a Manor that had ever been made, truth be told it was a bit of a dogs breakfast with a basic retooling of the original Mainline model, I'm glad I turned my nose up at one back then and now have the Accurascale model, I may have waited 30 odd years but it was worth it.

Edited November 25, 2023 by David Stannard

[OnTheBranchline]

On 24/11/2023 at 04:19, Csalem said:

Or is he....

 

(Rev Awdry suggested in his book on the Island of Sodor that Duck took the number of another Pannier before he went to the island).

 

Be nice if over time if Accurascale did all the Railway Series locos, but as their real counterparts. Would get an Accurascale A4, Black 5, etc then.

Sodor lore is murky at best.

Edited November 25, 2023 by OnTheBranchline

[Covkid]

2 hours ago, David Stannard said:

I wonder if Accurascale and Rapido's offerings are going force the "big players" to lift their game, the industry hasn't seen this sort of shake up since the introduction of Mainline to the markets, back then Hornby and Lima had been quite content pushing out rather mediocre models for decades, a prime example is the Black Five which has taken Hornby at least 50 years for them to maybe get it right.

 

Well yes. Time for a look at the Mighty Midland and the Premier line.  Masses and masses of BR nee LMS nee Midlasnd / LNWR targets to pick off.    

[F-UnitMad]

5 hours ago, NHY 581 said:

Right, back to researching Great Western goods only bucolic byways for these Panniers to play in.

*cough*Forest of Dean*cough* ..... 😁👍😉

[The Johnster]

*cough, cough*Tondu Valleys*cough cough cough*Glyncorrwg*... 🤪👍😄

 

Perhaps not so much bucolic as remote mountain fastnesses, but certainly byways!!!

[Philou]

22 hours ago, NHY 581 said:

You'd think I'd remember that.....

 

I did wonder ........... :))

[Captain Kernow]

9 hours ago, David Stannard said:

 In many respects it is, the first decent RTR Pannier was introduced by Mainline in 1981, for it's day it was a fantastic model but as we all know it had a number of inaccuracies, that said it was far in advance of what the "others" were offering at the time, years down the track Bachmann updated the Mainline model to the degree but still with a number of inaccuracies, the chief of those as many of us Pre War modellers know is the topfeed, Bachmann has prided itself over the years stating they make highly detailed and accurate models for the ready to run market, yes they may make good models but they also have their compromises.

I still maintain that the original Mainline pannier was essentially a dimensionally sound model, capable of being lifted to an even higher level by the addition of appropriate detailing and a new chassis (as opposed to the original split chassis it had).

 

In that regard, Bachmann simply enhanced an already good model over the years.

 

I also think it's significant that no one (apart from a short-lived Perseverance example) sought to introduce a 4mm high end etched brass kit for a 57XX in the 1980s and 1990s, while the likes of Finney and Churchward were producing kits for other popular GW prototypes. To me, that underscores the basic dimensional soundness of the Mainline loco.

 

But it's good to see an up to date model being produced now, though and heartening to see that the rivets along the top surface of the footplate and the correct footsteps on the front of the pannier tanks of the 8750s now being done.

 

Upgrading Bachmann panniers and converting them to P4 has been most enjoyable for me over the years. I doubt that there'll be much upgrading required to the AS body, but how easy will it be to convert one to P4 (or EM), I wonder?

 

 

[New Haven Neil]

The front buffer plank had to be removed to access/remove the pistons, which could be done at a relatively minor shed - I have a photo of one at Lydney in a Ben Ashworth book - so replacement of the relevant fixings could end up as just about anything.  I doubt these would be fitted bolts, so could be re-rivetted (if indeed they are rivets, not round headed coachbolts) or hex head.  As ever, the only guarantee is a dated photo!

[KeithMacdonald]

6 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

*cough*Forest of Dean*cough* .....

 

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

*cough, cough*Tondu Valleys*cough cough cough*Glyncorrwg*..

 

My goodness, those 57xx in Wales must have produced a lot of smoke.

[Steamport Southport]

9 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

 

My goodness, those 57xx in Wales must have produced a lot of smoke.

 

Need a map? 

 

Forest Of Dean is very much in England!

 

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green too]

I was going to put it a little more subtly - thus "So much that some of it blew out of Wales into the Forest of Dean by the look sound of it !" - but you beat me to it ! 🙄

[Steamport Southport]

All I can say is the first Pannier I ever saw that wasn't green or red was at Lydney, and that was 9681!

 

Very rare that preserved railways had locomotives in BR livery,

 

Also saw loads of rusty ones where you couldn't see what livery they were. I even remember 3612, which was in better condition than 7754.  7754 was a basket case. If it wasn't owned by the Welsh national museum then I think it would have been swapped for another one. There were still better ones in Barry at the time. Worth considering that quite a lot of 7754 came from 3612.

 

https://www.svrwiki.com/GWR_Pannier_3612

 

 

Jason

[David Stannard]

10 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

Well yes. Time for a look at the Mighty Midland and the Premier line.  Masses and masses of BR nee LMS nee Midlasnd / LNWR targets to pick off.    

 

Even though I am a Swindon man I will agree with you in that it would be nice to see more LNWR models, for a railway of its size it is certainly well underrepresented, as far as RTR LMS absorbed locomotives are concerned the Midland has a decent representation while it's a mere smattering of the other constituent lines.

[MidlandRed]

I viewed the Pannier tank EPs on the Accurascale stand at the NEC today - I have to say they look absolutely magnificent in the flesh, as it were - most impressive. I shall be ordering a 9681 - those rear window grilles, in particular, look spectacular. 

[tomparryharry]

2 hours ago, New Haven Neil said:

The front buffer plank had to be removed to access/remove the pistons, which could be done at a relatively minor shed - I have a photo of one at Lydney in a Ben Ashworth book - so replacement of the relevant fixings could end up as just about anything.  I doubt these would be fitted bolts, so could be re-rivetted (if indeed they are rivets, not round headed coachbolts) or hex head.  As ever, the only guarantee is a dated photo!

It's pretty much the same for any inside cylindered locomotive. The buffer plank or headstock needs to be capable of being 'taken down' for repairs or replacement. The drawbars exert tremendous force between the frames at their extremities, so distortion is quite common. Short of total failure, a shedmaster would have noticed on his defect sheets, and have a kit of parts via the Enparts network. Bolts were slightly oversized. This allowed skimming the shank diameter down, or reaming the hole out to suit. 

 

From the drawbar centre, the force is in tension, to the centre of the frame sides. Moving outwards, the force is now in compression, which is why you see gusset plates tucked in behind the bufferbeam. A good example would be the 18" Austerity, modified for steelworks service. There, double gusset (Oo, Matron) is pretty much standard requirement.