End of Warley National Show - but now it's not the end of a show at the NEC.

[AndrueC]

On 11/01/2024 at 17:32, Clearwater said:

 

I agree.  Two things strike me:

1) The way people enjoy model rail changes with many younger enthusiasts showing sometimes impressive, sometimes unimpressive layouts or techniques via YouTube.  Not quite the same as seeing a layout or a demonstrator in practice but the same mindset

2) Across all volunteer organisations, people are not joiners and organisers in the way they were years ago.  The volunteers I see running churches, sports clubs etc similarly are all often relatively old.

 

David

Golf is at some risk of the same demographic. It's noticeable that attendance at our Saturday (all ages) competitions has been declining for a couple of years now whilst it's becoming a struggle to find a place at the Wednesday Senior's comp. And volunteering likewise. I'm on our handicap committee which at three people (two men, one woman) only just meets the requirements. We struggled to find someone to take over as treasurer when the 80 year old incumbent said he'd had enough.

 

I think a lot of hobbies need to put more effort into attracting the younger demographic. Different hobbies have different reasons for the decline though. I'd say a lot of the problems stem from youngsters preferring to stay indoors with computers. I used to play a lot of games when I was younger but I grew out of it in my 30s. Another issue golf has is time. A round of golf takes four hours, sometimes more. A lot of young adults just don't have that much free. Given a spare Saturday they'd rather spend it with their family.

 

But..it's just life. Things evolve and change. Ebb and flow. It might matter to us if our hobby withers but people will always find something to occupy their idle time and does it really matter if it's different to what we chose?

[Legend]

On 20/01/2024 at 06:52, Chris M said:

. By stepping aside completely Warley club has left the door open for others, be it a club, group of clubs or business, to take up the mantle of putting on a National show. I very much doubt we will see a show with 90 layouts again in this country but it would be nice to be proven wrong. In the meantime I now regard Stafford with its circa 50 quality layouts as the premier English show.

Do you really need a show with 90 layouts ? There must be a limit to those you can actually get round and see .  I go to Model Rail Scotland . I think this year they are advertising 50+ layouts . It is so big that I go on two days , especially if taking in the trade offerings as well . AMRSS do this exhibition very well . 
 

I think there is a danger people read too much into the Warley closure . The circumstances have been explained . In Warley club the members are aging and no longer feel they want the stress of organising a major show . Completely understandable , but that’s it - let’s not predict the doom of the hobby because of it . It seems people always have to dig further and come up with conspiracy theories when in fact the real reason is there for all to see . 

 

As to YouTube , that’s not killing exhibitions . I watch YouTube lots but I enjoy going to actual exhibitions much more, I maybe then catch up again on the exhibition on YouTube .  I suspect there is an effect in that YouTube is actually becoming the model railway club to lots of people  and perhaps they don’t feel the need to go to clubs to the same extent . That might be an issue in the future . But that’s evolution not death of the hobby. 
 

I do attend exhibitions all over West Central Scotland and usually get up to Perth . Will do the new Dunblane show and possibly Edinburgh if I can get there easily by public transport /walking  (suspect not) . The critical thing for me is that it’s a hassle free day out . For Perth you can drive it easily or take the train almost to the door . With Model Rail Scotland again it’s easily accessible with a train costing not much more than the fare to central Glasgow to the door . Cathcart , Greenock, Troon , Paisley, Falkirk all nice wee runs , so it’s part of the overall experience . I mention that because I feel that recently the NEC just became to much hassle , getting there , parking , the cost of the venue . Maybe that became a significant factor .  

Edited January 21 by Legend

[MarkSG]

2 hours ago, Legend said:

I think there is a danger people read too much into the Warley closure . The circumstances have been explained . In Warley club the members are aging and no longer feel they want the stress of organising a major show . Completely understandable , but that’s it - let’s not predict the doom of the hobby because of it . It seems people always have to dig further and come up with conspiracy theories when in fact the real reason is there for all to see . 

 

I agree. Nothing is guaranteed to last for ever. Voluntary organisations, such as model railway clubs, are always vulnerable to demographic changes. Businesses are always vulnerable to economic and technological challenges. Exhibitions are doubly vulnerable, both to changes in the organiser and potential loss (or unaffordability) of a venue. These are simply unavoidable. Sometimes they can be worked around, and sometimes they can't.

 

A lot of the exhibitions that I remember going to in my teens and early twenties don't happen any more.  A lot of the shops I bought from don't exist any more. But others have come into existence in the meantime. Organisations will always come and go.

 

There are some potentially serious threats to the hobby that may or may not rear their heads in the next few years. A reliance on China as a manufacturing base, and consequently a supply line that runs through the Red Sea and Suez, is one that I suspect will be giving a lot of industry executives sleepness nights at the moment.

 

By contrast, people in a model railway club getting old and deciding to call it a day is not an existential threat. All of us will get old eventually, if we're lucky. Those who come after us can make their own decisions, set up their own businesses and run their own exhibitions. And the hobby will survive, and follow the course they set for it.

[melmerby]

6 hours ago, Gilbert said:

I have to assume its a very different financial model with (I think) everyone paying their way - our UK model of exhibitors getting their expenses (and their own hospitality area in some areas) is not the way over there...and traders/manufacturers outnumbered layouts about 15:1 when I attended in 2007.

Chris H

I don't know.

The society itself is operated on the US's non profit company rules, which are similar to a non profit company in the UK.

 

As to the ratio of layouts to traders, this year there are a lot of very small trade stands and some very big layouts, so I'm not surprised.

[PaulRhB]

8 hours ago, Chris M said:

I very much doubt we will see a show with 90 layouts again in this country but it would be nice to be proven wrong. In the meantime I now regard Stafford with its circa 50 quality layouts as the premier English show.

I like Stafford, been a couple of times, but Warley always had a strong Continental layout area which Stafford lacks usually. Yes I know Continental layouts go there 😉 but with the reduced numbers it’s nowhere near the large area Warley had. We’ve also lost three specialist continental shows in recent years, Eurotrack, Globalrail and the ERA show so Warley is a big loss in that area. 
 

7 hours ago, Gilbert said:

I have to assume its a very different financial model with (I think) everyone paying their way - our UK model of exhibitors getting their expenses (and their own hospitality area in some areas) is not the way over there...and traders/manufacturers outnumbered layouts about 15:1 when I attended in 2007.

Chris H

 

A commercial company tried that model at Yeovilton a few years ago and we replied with a polite letter that that’s not how we do shows. I understand they got several similar responses. The show went ahead but following the established model so it appears they were being a little ‘opportunistic’ 😉

[Ian J.]

90 isn't so big a number, especially when quite a few of the layouts are small end-to-end cameos of one form or another. I could do three rounds of Hall 5 at the NEC - 1 for trade, 2 for layout views, 3 for layout pics/vids, if I start at the very beginning of the day and go to the very end. But I don't socialize. If you're including gabbing around with lots of people in your time at a show, then there is going to be a different balance to what you get to see. Also, I went on Sundays the last few years, and they're generally somewhat quieter.

[fezza]

Personally I felt Warley lost something when the small suppliers and cheaper second hand dealers began to be priced out. Last November it seemed full of the larger shops selling the same premium products. From the point of view of buying it was less useful to me than, say, today's small Mickleover swapmeet where I was able to acquire several quite specialist things I'd been looking for.

 

What I don't understand is why the several big clubs in the West Midlands don't work together to share the burdens of organising a major exhibition and the financial risk. That might be a more sustainable solution to organise a genuinely "national" event. Most clubs cater for a local audience so shouldn't see themselves as being in competition  - although some clearly do!

[AY Mod]

5 hours ago, fezza said:

What I don't understand is why the several big clubs in the West Midlands don't work together to share the burdens of organising a major exhibition and the financial risk.

 

There aren't many 'big' clubs in the county of West Midlands.

 

It may share the burden but why would they want to take on possible risk when they have their own smaller but profitable shows? Even if they did, their share of potential reward may still be less than their smaller, profitable show.

 

I doubt many would prefer a show full of secondhand and smaller suppliers compared to the larger enterprises either.

[Andy Hayter]

3 hours ago, MarkSG said:

 

 

There are some potentially serious threats to the hobby that may or may not rear their heads in the next few years. A reliance on China as a manufacturing base, and consequently a supply line that runs through the Red Sea and Suez, is one that I suspect will be giving a lot of industry executives sleepness nights at the moment.

 

 

 

I do agree that near universal reliance on  China is a major potential risk to the hobby but not because of the Red Sea and Suez.  Amelioration measures are already in place.  They do make shipping more expensive but with modern container ships, the $1m extra costs comes out at around $50 per container or a few pence per model.

 

I see the real threat being Chinas international politics, their increasing control of worldwide supply of  raw materials and their progressive annexation of international waters.  Were they to overstep the mark, we really would have an existential problem - embargos on imports, all moulds held in an ostracised country along with a great deal of intellectual property.  

 

 

However, this is drifting far from  the subject of Warley even if it does illustrate just how unimportant (in the whole view of things) the loss of one important show is.  

[PaulRhB]

16 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

do agree that near universal reliance on  China is a major potential risk to the hobby

Nah if they stop I might get on and build all the projects rather than getting distracted and spending the layout money on stock! 😆

[MarkSG]

4 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

I like Stafford, been a couple of times, but Warley always had a strong Continental layout area which Stafford lacks usually. Yes I know Continental layouts go there 😉 but with the reduced numbers it’s nowhere near the large area Warley had. We’ve also lost three specialist continental shows in recent years, Eurotrack, Globalrail and the ERA show so Warley is a big loss in that area. 

 

Now that the Stafford show has the use of the Bingley Hall at the showground there is a lot more space available. So it's entirely possible that increasing the number of continental (and US, and other parts of the world) layouts is already something they're looking into. But it's only been in the big hall for two years so far (this year will be the third), so there's inevitably going to be a period of experimentation until they settle on what works best for the venue. Changing the mix of layouts too much, too soon, might risk losing some of what has always made Stafford such a good show. So I'd expect it to be incremental, rather than wholesale, change while they work out the optimal balance and numbers. 

[newbryford]

23 hours ago, mikeford2002uk said:

 

I also wondered if the organisational model of Model Rail Scotland with its Association of Model Railway societies in Scotland (AMRSS) could be used as a template, for something south of the border, with joint management of the show arranged through several model clubs, not just one ?

 

There is a similar association type show at Thornbury end April/earlyMay - organised by the Wales and West of England association (AMRCWWE), but that is now a joint venture under the BRM banner.

 

Many years ago, there were plans for a NWMRCA (north-west clubs association) exhibition at Pontins Blackpool, but there were "discussions" regarding the various financial risk levels and responsibilities taken by each club and some of the clubs pulled out of the association because of this, eventually leading to the downfall of the NWMRCA.

 

Don't get me wrong - association shows can work and the AMRSS is the proof of the pudding.

 

 

[PaulRhB]

38 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

Changing the mix of layouts too much, too soon, might risk losing some of what has always made Stafford such a good show. So I'd expect it to be incremental, rather than wholesale, change while they work out the optimal balance and numbers. 

I’m not suggesting they change really, Stafford is a different beast. Maybe with Warley gone they may pick up more but what I really meant was Warley always aimed to have a strong Continental section. Tolworth did have too but it seems to no longer be a focus. It’s a tad strange as the layouts are out there but in two more cases no one else to take it on saw the end of the specialist shows so I think it’s more there are so many British layouts that they just don’t get considered as much. 
Our own club show always tried to feature Continental layouts well but we lost our big venue due to an odd policy of having to hire regularly being brought in, rather than just fill a gap they had. The show having to significantly downsize to the only other venue in the town severely restricted the space although we have one at this years open day. 
Venue costs and availability have hit the shows of both groups I belong to hard not anything to do with the hobby itself. The school had insisted on catering which cut out a big chunk of surplus and then the regular hire rule threw us out altogether. On the other groups venue costs have doubled making it very tenuous for a specialist show which already had very small margins. This isn’t limited to our hobby, colleagues kids have found dance and sports groups priced out or gazumped as educational venues struggle to make money to balance shortfalls in funding. 
That’s the biggest problem I see, finding venues where the cost doesn’t make it so risky. 

[fezza]

5 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

There aren't many 'big' clubs in the county of the West Midlands.

 

It may share the burden but why would they want to take on possible risk when they have their own smaller but profitable shows? Even if they did, their share of potential reward may still be less than their smaller, profitable show.

 

I doubt many would prefer a show full of secondhand and smaller suppliers compared to the larger enterprises either.

 

I was thinking more in terms of the West Midlands region generally - Coventry, Rugby, Birmingham, Black country, Stafford  etc. 

 

I agree that some clubs may prefer to run profitable local exhibitions, but there is some prestige and satisfaction in organising a truly national or international show. There are also potentially direct benefits to the clubs involved. Warley raised it's profile enormously through the shift to a national show at the NEC.

 

In terms of sales. my ideal exhibition would have a mixture of large and small suppliers, catering for Finescale and mainstream, new and secondhand. Stafford seems to get quite close to that, as do a few others. Of course, the ideal is very hard to achieve, but there's no harm in a club having a general vision of what it would like to achieve.

[Barry O]

10 hours ago, fezza said:

 

I was thinking more in terms of the West Midlands region generally - Coventry, Rugby, Birmingham, Black country, Stafford  etc. 

 

I agree that some clubs may prefer to run profitable local exhibitions, but there is some prestige and satisfaction in organising a truly national or international show. There are also potentially direct benefits to the clubs involved. Warley raised it's profile enormously through the shift to a national show at the NEC.

 

In terms of sales. my ideal exhibition would have a mixture of large and small suppliers, catering for Finescale and mainstream, new and secondhand. Stafford seems to get quite close to that, as do a few others. Of course, the ideal is very hard to achieve, but there's no harm in a club having a general vision of what it would like to achieve.

Prestige? Satisfaction?

 

It doesn't  pay the rent .. why would anyone take on such an undertaking which would deflect them from their own shows?

 

Finding a very large,cheap hall would be a starter for 10.. getting volunteers to organise it would be a potential problem, and to get the traders you want.. well it would have to be a very low cost affair.

 

It's a huge risk putting on any show.. its even bigger organising  a large, low cost risk free one.

 

Baz

 

 

Edited January 21 by Barry O

[Mike Bellamy]

14 hours ago, fezza said:

. . .  today's small Mickleover swapmeet where I was able to acquire several quite specialist things I'd been looking for.

 

Thank you for your support - if you bought a bacon cob, even more thanks as I cooked about 80 in three hours !!  See you in September (7th), although we are considering the possibility of another event in June. If this also goes ahead, look out for Railway Modeller and UK Model Shops adverts.

 

9 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Our own club show always tried to feature Continental layouts well but we lost our big venue 

 

When we expanded the Derby Show to use both halls at the Assembly Rooms, we alternated using the smaller hall with Continental organised by the SNCF Society, and then the year after would be American organised by the NMRA. It was interesting to see the peaks and troughs in the attendance graph as for a while Continental was more popular and then it changed so that the American years had the higher attendance (or was it the other way around - I can't remember). When we went to the smaller Moorways Sports Centre and then to Derby Roundhouse, we continued to invite a selection of both American and Continental layouts - after all good modelling is good modelling regardless of scale, gauge and location. Sadly all three venues have now closed.

.

[Chris M]

9 hours ago, fezza said:

 

 

 

I agree that some clubs may prefer to run profitable local exhibitions, but there is some prestige and satisfaction in organising a truly national or international show. There are also potentially direct benefits to the clubs involved. Warley raised it's profile enormously through the shift to a national show at the NEC.

 

In terms of sales. my ideal exhibition would have a mixture of large and small suppliers, catering for Finescale and mainstream, new and secondhand. Stafford seems to get quite close to that, as do a few others. Of course, the ideal is very hard to achieve, but there's no harm in a club having a general vision of what it would like to achieve.

The intention behind the Warley NEC show back in 1993 was simply to be a shot in the arm for a hobby that, at the time, appeared to be shrinking and in the doldrums.  It was meant to be a national showcase for the hobby and I think it was very successful in achieving that. There was never any talk of "prestige" or anything like that when the NEC show was first mooted; it was all about creating something that would be good for the hobby. Nobody at the time had any expectations that it would grow so big or last for 30 years. We thought we would do well to last for 10 years. We should not see the demise of this show as a sign of doom for our hobby, we should see it as a wonderful 30 years of achievement. 

[Phil Parker]

15 hours ago, fezza said:

Personally I felt Warley lost something when the small suppliers and cheaper second hand dealers began to be priced out.

 

If there had been enough people buying, rather than just looking, they wouldn't have been "priced out". The hobby has changed over years after all. 

 

You are also making quite an assumption. With online sales, how many simply decided a weekend at the NEC didn't suit the aging business owners? 

 

Perhaps you could give us a list of small suppliers who could have been at Warley and stood a chance of selling enough to cover their petrol and accommodation. That would be helpful to other shows wondering who to approach. 

[Chris M]

Having a stand at an exhibition has always been "on the edge" for many small traders. Its not just the trade space, its maybe hiring a van, hotel accommodation and spending a weekend talking to people at a show when they could be at home making more things to sell. It was often marginal pre-covid but all of these "peripheral" costs have jumped up considerably over the last few years. I agree its a shame that many small traders don't tend to go to anything but local shows these days but I think we can all see why.

Edited January 21 by Chris M

[F-UnitMad]

1 hour ago, Chris M said:

The intention behind the Warley NEC show back in 1993 was simply to be a shot in the arm for a hobby that, at the time, appeared to be shrinking and in the doldrums.

Interesting perspective. My view as a punter at the last Harry Mitchell show in 1992 was that the venue was simply too small & parking utterly inadequate for what had become a very popular Show.

[Chris M]

14 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

Interesting perspective. My view as a punter at the last Harry Mitchell show in 1992 was that the venue was simply too small & parking utterly inadequate for what had become a very popular Show.

Yes but the NEC was one hell of a jump!

[PaulRhB]

25 minutes ago, Chris M said:

Having a stand at an exhibition has always been "on the edge" for many small traders. Its not just the trade space, its maybe hiring a van, hotel accommodation and spending a weekend talking to people at a show when they could be at home making more things to sell. It was often marginal pre-covid but all of these "peripheral" costs have jumped up considerably over the last few years. I agree its a shame that many small traders don't tend to go to anything but local shows these days but I think we can all see why.

Yes often quite different set ups as a trader. 
We used to do the NG one day shows with a mates trade stand as we could go there and back in a day saving any hotel costs. Sometimes we made enough to comfortably cover the cost of going but it was only about half the time. If we didn’t enjoy going to look round as well it was pretty marginal and only worth it as an advert to get the models seen in many cases. A two day show that required a hotel just wasn’t worth it for such limited appeal models unless it was on our doorstep. A stand cost of over £50 ish, (a few years ago now), also just wasn’t worth it because we just didn’t sell enough without putting a big mark up on items because it was really a side hobby sharing the kits made for a personal project rather than a major part of his business. Small traders are often just sharing stuff they mastered for a bit of cash to support their hobby rather than making a business out of it. How does a show manager accommodate that difference fairly though? Warley tried with the small stand area. Some traders are right on the dividing line, especially initially, if you try to split stand costs too much so it needs to be done by size to prevent arguments. 

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, Chris M said:

Having a stand at an exhibition has always been "on the edge" for many small traders. Its not just the trade space, its maybe hiring a van, hotel accommodation and spending a weekend talking to people at a show when they could be at home making more things to sell. It was often marginal pre-covid but all of these "peripheral" costs have jumped up considerably over the last few years. I agree its a shame that many small traders don't tend to go to anything but local shows these days but I think we can all see why.

Small local shows are often not worthwhile for the small "specialist" suppliers (e.g. etched kits and bits) as they don't get enough of the "specialist" modeller. The national Society shows and medium size "finescale" shows are those that tend to be most viable.

[2ManySpams]

17 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

There aren't many 'big' clubs in the county of West Midlands.

 

It may share the burden but why would they want to take on possible risk when they have their own smaller but profitable shows? Even if they did, their share of potential reward may still be less than their smaller, profitable show.

 

I doubt many would prefer a show full of secondhand and smaller suppliers compared to the larger enterprises either.

 

It's also fun enough getting agreement on exhibition issues within the confines of a single club. I imagine you'd multiply that several times by bringing additional clubs and additional politics. People are normally only happy when everyone else agrees with them and does things their way. 🤣

[fezza]

It is interesting though that some shows have lots of smaller suppliers (Gauge O Guild and Stafford to name but two) so presumably small suppliers think these are cost-effective and worthwhile despite the fuel and accommodation costs?

 

It's not only about immediate sales, of course. Shows are an opportunity to remind people you exist (or still exist) and promote future sales. That's certainly how my old family firm (admittedly in a very different niche business) viewed shows and exhibitions.