Hornby Magazine Event at the NEC April 2024

[298]

On 28/01/2024 at 21:24, PMP said:

There is another consideration that can be made. If ‘we’ want a Warley show at the NEC, perhaps it might be an option to consider paying forward something to assist an organisation putting on the show. I mention this regardless of the specific company in this instance. If a viable consortium of people came up with a similar proposal I’d have the same opinion.

 

I've known of a few Exhibition managers who certainly made out that such a role was a full time job, although that doesn't take into account the thousands of volunteer hours needed over a show weekend. Anything but a small show is outside of the scope for one person to organise and coordinate anyway, and there is the moral dilemma of should you pay when someone is willing to do the role for free (although I do think Warley should have paid a designer for their website and show guide).

 

The concept of exhibitors paying some kind of contribution isn't new, and often gets spoken about in order to get the job done- something non-UK outline modellers are used to with private Freemo events or European outline shows, although there aren't any of those at the moment. The expenses bill for my layout at Stafford was less than the price of an advance Warley ticket, thanks to my operator kindly only claiming for one 100 mile round trip because he would have gone to the show anyway, and me being able to offset my petrol cost against the free leisure miles out other car gets from charging at work. 

[TEAMYAKIMA]

I am very pleased to announce that my Chinese HO layout, BEIJIAO, has been invited to this NEC event and I was delighted to accept.

 

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, 298 said:

and there is the moral dilemma of should you pay when someone is willing to do the role for free

Paying someone to do something like that is up to the club etc but it’s where the profit goes that makes my decision. I’ve done up to 50 miles and given petrol for free for charity but I won’t if it’s just going into the organisers coffers, that’s a personal choice.

I’d rather pay more for the show than subsidise it for £50+ personally. I paid £9 to go to Southampton show on Sunday which, despite being technically lower value than Warley, I felt was fine. I would have paid £12 quite happily for that and with say 1500 to 2000 visitors can make a huge difference to covering the exhibitor costs rather than the 30 odd exhibitors having paid £50-100 to cover accommodation. If I book non refundable I can lose all that money too, if like a Freemo meet was impossible to reach due to snow for example or various other issues.
Some do it on a shoestring too and stumping up £1-200 for hotel rooms on top of fuel can be a big risk especially if the exhibition is slow to pay.

Too many variables as I said before to be comfortable with for many and I’m not that keen to take risk on the hotel rooms myself if the show was cancelled for some reason at late notice. 
Not taking the layout out is fine, there are plenty of smaller shows I’ll happily support using that subsidy, or with minimal costs or local ones for nowt instead. 

[TEAMYAKIMA]

On 22/01/2024 at 17:54, Tony Wright said:

Though not related to Hornby Magazine's forthcoming exhibition, I should like to point out that at Warners-organised exhibitions, all out-of-pocket expenses are covered for layout owners/demonstrators, including fuel, overnight accommodation and all meals (including in the evenings). 

 

Tony

 

Are you sure about that? I have exhibited at three Warners shows and never been offered expenses for evening meals.

Edited January 30 by TEAMYAKIMA

[Barry O]

A Commercial Show.. who gets the profits? Who helps to generate these profits?

I don't particularly feel like I want to subsidise a commercial event... but other may do..Good luck to them!

 

But.. Warley had a company card for Premier Inn to help booking accommodation.. obviously these guys haven't.  It will need a lot of volunteers to get this show on.

 

Will there be a one next year ? Unless Pete Waterman expands his layout again Hall 12 is a big space to fill (but not as big as Hall5). Will more layout owners pay for the pleasure of attending?

 

What catering will be provided?(NEC Catering does not come cheap!)

 

You many questions and not much layout info on the website.

 

Baz

 

 

[TEAMYAKIMA]

18 minutes ago, Barry O said:

What catering will be provided?(NEC Catering does not come cheap!)

 

As someone who has accepted the invitation, allow me to explain - lunches and teas and coffees will be provided as at a normal show.

 

Hotels - TBH my team are quite happy about the way this is being done (at least one club show is also adopting this approach). The issue is that we are normally allocated an hotel - this is often miles from a decent pub - this way we can choose our hotel and our location.

[PMP]

13 minutes ago, Barry O said:

A Commercial Show.. who gets the profits? Who helps to generate these profits?

I don't particularly feel like I want to subsidise a commercial event... but other may do..Good luck to them!

 

Baz

 

 

Obviously Key get the profits, the same way Warley club show company used to get them. If you’ve not been asked to assist or volunteer where’s the issue? Key have set the event price at a similar price to the ‘Warley’ show for a more varied genre show, presumably within those groups they have the opportunity to recruit assistance rather than relying solely on the model railway community. Perhaps they’re using agency staff? Regardless, it’s not ‘our’ problem.
 

Within the T&C’s there’s an allowance for the layout teams to claim for accommodation. At such relatively short notice trying to bulk buy room rates would be difficult regardless of whether they have a HOTAC account with any group or chain. Had this been a year in advance then the HOTAC element would have been cheaper, but as @TEAMYAKIMAsays for them, it’s not an issue. It does at least allow the exhibitors to select their own accommodation. Some shows (not Warley), haven’t provided suitable HOTAC or other elements, we never went back to those.

 

With Warley club deciding not to run their exhibition this year, if Key or any other publisher, organisation or group want to have a crack at running what will be a good opportunity to be the national annual model railway exhibition, that’s a good thing. If people don’t want to exhibit or contribute to an event that’s fine. Those that have been invited are going into it with pretty clear understandings of what the show is and the relevant T&C’s.

 

 

 

[Barry O]

If the show was properly organised HOTAC wouldn't be a problem.. looks like the company concerned hasn't got a full plan for the show. How many of the "teams" doing displays etc have any real reason to volunteer to do anything but turn up?

 

Having a choice of hotels sounds great.. but faffing around trying to get an affordable deal is too much like hard work for some.

 

There may be more than this company trying to set up future events at the NEC. Good luck to them!

Baz

Edited February 2 by Barry O

[newbryford]

On 22/01/2024 at 17:54, Tony Wright said:

Though not related to Hornby Magazine's forthcoming exhibition, I should like to point out that at Warners-organised exhibitions, all out-of-pocket expenses are covered for layout owners/demonstrators, including fuel, overnight accommodation and all meals (including in the evenings). 

 

 

In around 40 years of exhibiting layouts, I've never been offered evening meal as part of the expenses.

And never expected them either.

 

There has been the odd social event that has been organised by the club, usually on the Saturday evening - and in some cases - and not unreasonably so - there was a "contribution" from me and my team.

 

Evening meals for 3-day shows can add up - after all - who would normally go out to eat three days in a row?

 

edit: just noticed Paul Yakima has raised the same point.

 

edit #2 Are Key paying for exhibitor car parking at the NEC? Or does that need to be claimed as "travel expenses"?

Edited February 2 by newbryford

[Chris M]

2 hours ago, PMP said:

Obviously Key get the profits, the same way Warley club show company used to get them. If you’ve not been asked to assist or volunteer where’s the issue? Key have set the event price at a similar price to the ‘Warley’ show for a more varied genre show, presumably within those groups they have the opportunity to recruit assistance rather than relying solely on the model railway community. Perhaps they’re using agency staff? Regardless, it’s not ‘our’ problem.
 

Within the T&C’s there’s an allowance for the layout teams to claim for accommodation. At such relatively short notice trying to bulk buy room rates would be difficult regardless of whether they have a HOTAC account with any group or chain. Had this been a year in advance then the HOTAC element would have been cheaper, but as @TEAMYAKIMAsays for them, it’s not an issue. It does at least allow the exhibitors to select their own accommodation. Some shows (not Warley), haven’t provided suitable HOTAC or other elements, we never went back to those.

 

With Warley club deciding not to run their exhibition this year, if Key or any other publisher, organisation or group want to have a crack at running what will be a good opportunity to be the national annual model railway exhibition, that’s a good thing. If people don’t want to exhibit or contribute to an event that’s fine. Those that have been invited are going into it with pretty clear understandings of what the show is and the relevant T&C’s.

 

 

 

The Warley club company was set up in order to allow the club to put on an exhibition at the NEC. It is entirely owned by Warley club. The Warley club company does not employ anyone and donates all available funds to Warley club. It is entirely controlled by Warley club and only exists because it was required to put on such a big exhibition. This is very different to Key Publishing which is a normal limited company.

 

Warley club fully supports Model World Live and will have a presence at the show in April.
 

The creation of a new national show is open to anyone who wishes to take it on.  It will be interesting to see how things pan out.

[PaulRhB]

2 hours ago, PMP said:

Some shows (not Warley), haven’t provided suitable HOTAC or other elements, we never went back to those.

Yes and its difficulties with a couple of shows that make me wary of eroding the usual arrangements.

One got uppity about the van hire and said they’d only pay half despite it being agreed in advance, the club chairman apologised and confirmed all agreed expenses would be paid. If I’m paying £280+ for 4+ operators up front for the hotel rooms for two nights I’m assuming the invite letter would be proof of contract but I’d want confirmation of the invite before paying out so it’s not my risk.
I know others do it on a much tighter budget than me and buying £150 loco is a planned purchase over months so I’d guess several won’t have £300 sitting around to pay up months in advance and then paid a week or so after the show. 
Small detail to many but also a big chunk of money to others. 
 

Just a personal opinion that the beneficiaries should be taking the risk, not the layout operators. The two groups I belong to manage it and they rely on between 30-80 members and the group account takes the risk.
I’ve been put up in some oddball places, once for the NEC show in a major chain hotel which was under renovation, but that can be part of the fun. One show had the most enormous 70’s brown jacuzzi in the bathroom, no we didn’t partake, but also had a dining room decked out with Pullman chairs and tableware! When they found out we were there for a railway show we got breakfast in Pullman luxury! 😁

Edited February 2 by PaulRhB

[AY Mod]

13 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

brown jacuzzi

 

Two words that just shouldn't be together.

[Gilbert]

2 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Two words that just shouldn't be together.

I think there's a SIG.....

[ColinK]

I like the idea of being able to choose your accomodation.  I know several exhibitors who have motorhomes/campervans and use them to transport their layouts and once unloaded, become their accommodation for the weekend.  Campsites are cheap compared with hotels.  Some people have the option of staying with friends and relations.

[Benjamin Brady]

I think the comment above the accommodation about being all part of the exhibiting fun as you never really know what you are going to get. 

 

Some of the smaller shows can have some choice rooms and the bigger ones. Spalding in the housing development, four to a room and kitchen was always a good laugh. 

 

Personally the allowance is not a bad thing, however I think the amount needs to realistically reflect the price of bed and breakfast in the local area of the show, which the £70 offered at the NEC is not going to cover. Most shows we have visited we have been offered bed and breakfast. 

 

I think maybe the issue key world face here is the way different shows operator with military modellers not demanding quite as much in exspenses to display at a show. 

[Ravenser]

14 hours ago, PMP said:

 

 

With Warley club deciding not to run their exhibition this year, if Key or any other publisher, organisation or group want to have a crack at running what will be a good opportunity to be the national annual model railway exhibition, that’s a good thing. If people don’t want to exhibit or contribute to an event that’s fine. Those that have been invited are going into it with pretty clear understandings of what the show is and the relevant T&C’s.

 

 

 

 

With a significant number of new modellers coming into the hobby, you would want them to benefit from being able to go to decen t sized shows , see insipirational layouts, come across interesting and specialist traders , and so on and so forth. It would be nice to think they would have  some kind of exhibition circuit to enjoy , as people did before the pandemic.

 

The "circuit" has seen a sharp contraction. The hobby - in terms of modellers - hasn't . We hear that clubs are no longer so interested in putting on large shows or even that it isn'r really reasonable to expect them to do in the way they did 10 years ago.

 

If clubs are stepping back from organisating this kind of event , then we aren't really in a position to be too picky about who we want to organise large shows, and the fine detail of rules of engagement. Assuming the hobby still wants this kind of event, then to a degree we have to accept   what is workable for the people still willing to organise them.

 

 

 

[PaulRhB]

8 hours ago, Ravenser said:

If clubs are stepping back from organisating this kind of event , then we aren't really in a position to be too picky about who we want to organise large shows, and the fine detail of rules of engagement. Assuming the hobby still wants this kind of event, then to a degree we have to accept   what is workable for the people still willing to organise them.

In the main it’s venue availability that is causing the biggest issue, both groups I’m involved in have hurdles there. One venue has nearly doubled in price, because the college is struggling to replace funding cuts, and the other has a slightly odd policy where they won’t even consider once a year hire because they want regular hires, minimum monthly only. 
A show as big at Warley has a slightly different problem mainly caused by a long term shift in retirement ages and the drop in numbers generally of the hobby. 
I don’t think the hobby has to accept a change to how the shows are run because the other shows, like military modelling, have paid to exhibit because usually there’s a competition element so they are funding prizes and there are many more exhibits which cost less to transport. The stands for a 8-12ft long layout require the logistics of at least a couple of cars or a van and people required to put on a show operating rather than plonk it on a table and enjoy the rest of the table. 

If I do a show I save the entrance fee, accommodation and fuel costs to stand behind the layout operating for at least half the hours the show is open.
Then there’s the prepping of layout and stock, all the extras that were bought to make the layout presentable, lights, curtains, a spare controller, transport crates or bags for stock. I don’t get any of that paid for and it adds up to quite a lot of entrance fees and fuel compared to going to a show. So why would I bother paying more to exhibit than visit? Especially as I get older it’s not worth the effort then so I’d stop exhibiting altogether.
 

I said before many great layouts built on tight budgets just wouldn’t get out at all as they can’t afford £300-400 up front to claim back months later so you limit the variety too. Remember that’s just one show! Many do 15-20 shows a year and booked up a year or two in advance. What happens when the car needs replacing and suddenly your budget is tightened and you need to book the next six months hotels for £1000+ ?  I do a max 5 shows a year due to working many weekends and lose the Sunday overtime pay when I put not available so it costs me even more from the toy & holiday fund ;) 

If big commercial organisations want to run shows then they should take the risks like the clubs that continue to run shows not force a change to the ‘model’ to maximise profits and transfer risk to exhibitors. If you let them do that then you are hitting yourself in the pocket for their profit and some people will get hit when unexpected costs at home cripple them.  

[Bonafide]

14 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Then there’s the prepping of layout and stock, all the extras that were bought to make the layout presentable, lights, curtains, a spare controller, transport crates or bags for stock. I don’t get any of that paid for and it adds up to quite a lot of entrance fees and fuel compared to going to a show. So why would I bother paying more to exhibit than visit? Especially as I get older it’s not worth the effort then so I’d stop exhibiting altogether.
 

 

It seems you would prefer not to exhibit as you find it such a burden and, moreover, would be happy to save the expense of purchasing those items you describe.

 

We are fortunate that many layout owners and exhibitors are not only pleased to exhibit but also derive considerable enjoyment from doing so.  In contrast to your experience, such a positive attitude is to be welcomed - long may it continue!

[AY Mod]

27 minutes ago, Bonafide said:

It seems you would prefer not to exhibit as you find it such a burden and, moreover, would be happy to save the expense of purchasing those items you describe.

 

Layout owners are free to have their own boundaries on what terms they are prepared to exhibit and what they find agreeable or not. Every show, club or commercial, relies on varying elements of goodwill and it's fairest for everyone if there is a sensible balance.

 

It's unfair to castigate someone else if their boundaries are different from yours or someone else's.

 

You may not know that Paul does exhibit at many shows but he is at liberty to choose which ones he does do.

[kevinlms]

22 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

Two words that just shouldn't be together.

No one needed to be told twice!

 

 

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, Bonafide said:

 

It seems you would prefer not to exhibit as you find it such a burden and, moreover, would be happy to save the expense of purchasing those items you describe.

 

I think you need to read all my posts about exhibiting. 😉 In previous posts I’ve said I do enjoy it but the point is why do I have to take the risk for a business when the two groups I’m in organise good mid size shows and don’t pass that risk to the exhibitor?

 

1 hour ago, Bonafide said:

 

We are fortunate that many layout owners and exhibitors are not only pleased to exhibit but also derive considerable enjoyment from doing so.  In contrast to your experience, such a positive attitude is to be welcomed - long may it continue!

No I’m quite happy to exhibit and quite busy doing so. But if this idea spreads it’ll get quite expensive to do so with several hundred pounds tied up in the next twelve months hotel rooms. As I pointed out I can afford it but other regular exhibitors can’t. I’m going four shows in the next three months with two being two exhibitors, (2x £70), £140 for one night stays on these rates, one being a team of four so another £140 for one night and the other being a team of eight for two nights, so £560. 
That's a total of £840 I’d have to stump up months in advance for just four shows. 
As WRS and WNGM groups can take the risk I see no reason to take it for a commercial company. 
I’ll continue to support shows that cover the big costs and as I’ve done for Compton Dundon that supports the Lions club charity work and I’ve done twice for Rotorail I paid all the travel expenses and no claim for hotels. 
So please read the whole thread before getting all high and mighty 😉

The whole point of a forum is to discuss things, I’m trying to make some points why this can adversely affect some exhibitors for ethical or financial reasons. I’m not demonising Hornby mag but I don’t agree with the policy and I’ve not told anyone to boycott it but to consider the implications. 
 

 

Edited February 3 by PaulRhB

[AY Mod]

Who knew that the wisdom of Facebook could provide the solution to shows?

 

 

Nothing to do with Key; it was a post about Doncaster next weekend.

[doctor quinn]

5 hours ago, AY Mod said:

Who knew that the wisdom of Facebook could provide the solution to shows?

 

 

Nothing to do with Key; it was a post about Doncaster next weekend.

Could you ask IT to add a "Words fail me" button?

[ardbealach]

Don't forget that old saying 'They walk among us' (Alisdair)

[Chris M]

And they are allowed to vote!