Kernow commission ex LSWR Gate Stock Pull Push Sets

[lochlongside]

Robin

 

I can assure you that the gate stock has not yet gone into production so must be an error on the shipping note / interpretation somehow.

 

The gate stocks sets as being produced by Kernow are in the SR condition post 1930's with the standard SR style 4 window front and therefore not correct for LSWR style with the original 3 front window style and livery so would indeed be 'sacrilege' 

 

It is intended that the BR green version of 373 will represent the correct livery for the period (including the steel plating), a darker green than newly applied malachite due to the multiple re-varnishing with the BR numbers in the correct location.

Question for Graham Muz really as on every search his name turns up near the top of the searches !! - when were the two proposed BR sets  scrapped ? - I ask because I have a strong memory of seeing one of these sets in green pushed by an M7 on the bridge at foot of "Archway Road, Branksome" probably (no later than) around early mid 1961 - it made an impact at the time because as junior teenager as I couldn't believe that BR still had coaches with open doorways !!- referring to my IAs of the time only 373 is listed in summer 60/winter 60-61 edition  - that implies only one survived to that date and that they did wander around the Bournemouth Poole area?

[Graham_Muz]

Hi

 

Withdrawal dates as follows:

Set 363: November 1958

Set 373: October 1960

Set 374: October 1956

 

These sets could be found on the following services at various times during their life:

Seaton – Seaton Junction
Yeovil Town – Yeovil Junction (363, 373)
Lee-on-the-Solent – Fareham (374 up to 1930)
Ascot – Guildford (374)
Farnham – Guildford (374)
Bordon – Guildford (373)
Plymouth – Turnchapel (363, 373, 374)
Plymouth – St Budeaux – Tavistock (including Bere Alston - Callington non pull push mode) (363, 373, 374)

 

They saw railtour use during the 1950’s and have been recorded at Plymouth, Plymstock, Callington, Turnchaple, Exteter, Yeovil, Salisbury, Bisley, Bournemouth, Poole, and Swanage.

[bgman]

Maybe not the correct thing to ask but I will with respect to one and all here.

 

Is the proposed GW Railmotor any further forward ?

[Tim Dubya]

Is the proposed GW Railmotor any further forward ?

 

No now p**s off!

 

**R indeed!

[NHY 581]

What we need is one of these.....

[Tim Dubya]

Ahh, that's better....

 

Calm again

[No Decorum]

I'd better not mention the Bulleid diesels, then.

[bgman]

Ahh, that's better....

Calm again

You're just weird ! )

[mvrnut]

nhy581, yes I like this idea, the LSWR H13 class railmotor. Then I could model the Fratton to Southsea branch, or the Botley to Bishop's Waltham branch line.  Now we're thinking.

 

Cheers,

   Chris

[Robin Brasher]

Lochlongside, If you look at my post 205 you will see that Set 373 was at Swanage in Summer 1960. As the Swanage  M7s were normally kept at Bournemouth shed the set was probably at Branksome on its way to Bournemouth. Normally the same sets were used on the Wimborne and Lymington branches although I have not seen any record of set 373 there.  Yours sincerely Robin

[Ozexpatriate]

Is the proposed GW Railmotor any further forward ?

For some reason I'm reminded of Groucho Marx.

 

Edited January 30, 2016 by Ozexpatriate

[lochlongside]

Lochlongside, If you look at my post 205 you will see that Set 373 was at Swanage in Summer 1960. As the Swanage  M7s were normally kept at Bournemouth shed the set was probably at Branksome on its way to Bournemouth. Normally the same sets were used on the Wimborne and Lymington branches although I have not seen any record of set 373 there.  Yours sincerely Robin

Robin -  That was what prompted me to comment - I wasn't aware of shedding detail - would explain why I saw it so infrequently (can only remember once) - many thanks for info LLs

[Edwardian]

I note the comment that the SR condition is post-1930s.

 

Would Kernow be good enough to say whether their tooling and livery is correct for 1935 or earlier?  if not, I'm afraid that I will need to cancel my pre-order.

[Richard Lee]

I note the comment that the SR condition is post-1930s.

 

Would Kernow be good enough to say whether their tooling and livery is correct for 1935 or earlier?  if not, I'm afraid that I will need to cancel my pre-order.

If you (or anyone else) happened to find out, I would be interested to know.

 

Thanks in anticipation.

[Edwardian]

Well, I don't have that much knowledge of LSWR stock and have yet to add that section to the 'library', so I am left asking a question because I have not the means to answer it for myself.

 

I thought it was a shame that no LSWR livery was planned for the Gate Stock, or the O2, for that matter.  Now I understand that the Gate Stock tooling is no good for the pre-Grouping era, which is a real shame, given how neglected the period is.  No point in considering a second set for a repaint now.  Now, of course, I find myself unsure of the date from whence the tooling chosen is correct.  So, maybe, no first set in Southern livery.  

 

My assessment of Kernow is that, perhaps predictably enough, it is really only interested in the BR period; though there has been the odd release of the Well Tank in pre-Nationalisation guise, this has not gone earlier than about 1937-8 if I recall, which was a great shame and meant I never bought one. That is why I have never, I'm afraid, taken much interest in Kernow's 'doings', it has just been too limited in the period depicted by its steam-age models. With the introduction of the O2 and Gate Stock in olive green, I naively assumed that these would be generally OK for much of the inter-war period, but the, as yet, unclarified "post 1930s" comment makes me wonder if these releases have much utility for the Grouping-era as a whole.  I am looking for reassurance and a bit more detail as to the period covered by both Kernow's olive green O2 and Gate Stock.

 

The late thirties has always had reasonable coverage, because often models conceived for the BR market can also be liveried for this period with ease.  Coverage before that becomes rapidly scarcer as BR-era-tooled models become less suitable, or, in some cases, because manufacturers don't bother so much with earlier liveries (only one set of Hornby's Castle and Star tooling has ever worn a pre-war livery - which is insane). It's a shame to see models like the Well Tank and the Gate Stock limited to the last late phase of their careers, especially when Bachmann can make the effort to produce a pre-Grouping livery for its E4, Hornby can for its M7 and Oxford can for its Dean Goods.   

 

Sorry to sound negative - I am sure they will be lovely models - I am a bit jaded from releases that could, so easily, have covered a wider period, but which didn't.  Still, RTR manufacturers' loss must be kit manufacturers gain! 

[pete_mcfarlane]

I don't have the Gordon Weddell book to hand, but I guess the gate stock would have been modified around 1930 as part of the change in pull-push control systems from the LSWR mechanical system to the SR pneumatic one. I think the main visible changes were to the end windows on the driving coach. I'm wondering if a new etched end could be produced to allow for conversions. 

[Edwardian]

Thanks for that.  I think to be of use to me the Southern livery one has to be good for 1935 OOB.

 

Given that a LSWR version would require a repaint, if the surgery required were not drastic and limited to a discreet area, I would not rule that out.  But it's £100 of coaches at risk if I mucked it up, so there is only so far I would be comfortable in going.

 

Oh for the Triang clerestories - it doesn't matter what you do to them!

[Nick Holliday]

Gordon Weddell was not at his most positive on these coaches. He said:

It was probably around 1929 or 1930, when the decision was taken to abandon the three wire Push-Pull control system in favour of air control, that the driving brake ends were rebuilt by the Southern Railway to its standard Push-Pull design.

[Richard Lee]

Many thanks to pete_mcfarlane and Nick Holiday, and also to Edwardian for making me aware of the potential issue.  It is reassuring to know that the Gated Stock are still a possibility for branch line coaches.  My main layout is a fictitious 1933ish SR branch in the Western Division, although I do also have 3 former LB&SC Railway locomotives.

 

The Bachmann Birdcage Stock seem to be a long way off.  The nice-looking Hornby 57' rebuilds of LSWR 48' coaches only started to appear in 1936, I believe.  I have been considering trying green painted Ratio Midland Railway non-corridor suburban stock as former LB&SC railway coaches, although I try to keep kit-building to the smaller, 1900ish LB&SC layout.  (If you saw the results of my attempts at kit building you would know why. )

[Graham_Muz]

Well, I don't have that much knowledge of LSWR stock and have yet to add that section to the 'library', so I am left asking a question because I have not the means to answer it for myself.

 

I thought it was a shame that no LSWR livery was planned for the Gate Stock, or the O2, for that matter.  Now I understand that the Gate Stock tooling is no good for the pre-Grouping era, which is a real shame, given how neglected the period is.  No point in considering a second set for a repaint now.  Now, of course, I find myself unsure of the date from whence the tooling chosen is correct.  So, maybe, no first set in Southern livery.  

 

My assessment of Kernow is that, perhaps predictably enough, it is really only interested in the BR period; though there has been the odd release of the Well Tank in pre-Nationalisation guise, this has not gone earlier than about 1937-8 if I recall, which was a great shame and meant I never bought one. That is why I have never, I'm afraid, taken much interest in Kernow's 'doings', it has just been too limited in the period depicted by its steam-age models. With the introduction of the O2 and Gate Stock in olive green, I naively assumed that these would be generally OK for much of the inter-war period, but the, as yet, unclarified "post 1930s" comment makes me wonder if these releases have much utility for the Grouping-era as a whole.  I am looking for reassurance and a bit more detail as to the period covered by both Kernow's olive green O2 and Gate Stock.

 

The late thirties has always had reasonable coverage, because often models conceived for the BR market can also be liveried for this period with ease.  Coverage before that becomes rapidly scarcer as BR-era-tooled models become less suitable, or, in some cases, because manufacturers don't bother so much with earlier liveries (only one set of Hornby's Castle and Star tooling has ever worn a pre-war livery - which is insane). It's a shame to see models like the Well Tank and the Gate Stock limited to the last late phase of their careers, especially when Bachmann can make the effort to produce a pre-Grouping livery for its E4, Hornby can for its M7 and Oxford can for its Dean Goods.   

 

Sorry to sound negative - I am sure they will be lovely models - I am a bit jaded from releases that could, so easily, have covered a wider period, but which didn't.  Still, RTR manufacturers' loss must be kit manufacturers gain! 

 

Edwardian

 

Sets 373/4 were converted to Southern Railway air control system in 1929/30 and at the same time gained the standard Southern Railway four window pull push unit style front end.  Set 272 was disbanded in 1929 (prior to driving front end and air control conversion)  and reformed as set 363 in 1933, with standard SR front and air control, as per sets 373/4. They would have been in lined Olive Green at this time as per one of the options being offered by Kernow. Also an O2 has been produced in post 1931 livery, when it also gained the SR air control Pull Push gear (without any prefix) as number 207 to match this livery release.

 

In an ideal world if money was no object I am sure the likes of Kernow would love to tool for all permutations and variations, but economics do rule and being a commissioner rather than a large manufacturer I am sure decisions have to be taken by the retailer based on the size of a potential market for a specific variation and the return possible.  I would not perhaps rule out an LSWR liveried O2 at some stage as this importantly could be achieved from the existing tooling (as were the E4 and M7 you mention). 

A version of the Well Tank was produced in SR Maunsell 1930's livery No 3329 (as well as later Bulleid SR livery) but as in the early 1930s the Well Tanks were already on their second substantial rebuild, completely new tooling would have been required to be correct for any earlier livery application and again the return on such an expense, running into tens of thousands of pounds, against potential sales needs to be taken into account.   

 

I hope this clarifies the situation for you on the relevant dates etc.

[Dunsignalling]

Well, I don't have that much knowledge of LSWR stock and have yet to add that section to the 'library', so I am left asking a question because I have not the means to answer it for myself.

 

I thought it was a shame that no LSWR livery was planned for the Gate Stock, or the O2, for that matter.  Now I understand that the Gate Stock tooling is no good for the pre-Grouping era, which is a real shame, given how neglected the period is.  No point in considering a second set for a repaint now.  Now, of course, I find myself unsure of the date from whence the tooling chosen is correct.  So, maybe, no first set in Southern livery.  

 

My assessment of Kernow is that, perhaps predictably enough, it is really only interested in the BR period; though there has been the odd release of the Well Tank in pre-Nationalisation guise, this has not gone earlier than about 1937-8 if I recall, which was a great shame and meant I never bought one. That is why I have never, I'm afraid, taken much interest in Kernow's 'doings', it has just been too limited in the period depicted by its steam-age models. With the introduction of the O2 and Gate Stock in olive green, I naively assumed that these would be generally OK for much of the inter-war period, but the, as yet, unclarified "post 1930s" comment makes me wonder if these releases have much utility for the Grouping-era as a whole.  I am looking for reassurance and a bit more detail as to the period covered by both Kernow's olive green O2 and Gate Stock.

 

The late thirties has always had reasonable coverage, because often models conceived for the BR market can also be liveried for this period with ease.  Coverage before that becomes rapidly scarcer as BR-era-tooled models become less suitable, or, in some cases, because manufacturers don't bother so much with earlier liveries (only one set of Hornby's Castle and Star tooling has ever worn a pre-war livery - which is insane). It's a shame to see models like the Well Tank and the Gate Stock limited to the last late phase of their careers, especially when Bachmann can make the effort to produce a pre-Grouping livery for its E4, Hornby can for its M7 and Oxford can for its Dean Goods.   

 

Sorry to sound negative - I am sure they will be lovely models - I am a bit jaded from releases that could, so easily, have covered a wider period, but which didn't.  Still, RTR manufacturers' loss must be kit manufacturers gain! 

The manufacturers generally cater for the market they are aware of, what people are known to buy rather than what they might buy if it were produced. Given the limited production slots available and the cost thereof, that isn't going to change (at least not to the extent you would like).

 

The Gate set Is being produced to reflect the body modifications introduced c1930, it being pretty indisputable that more people will want to buy versions covering the three decades after that date than the three decades before. No idea whether the SR livery being applied is correct for the period immediately post-1930 though. Interestingly, IIRC the Hornby M7s produced in LSWR livery have both represented non-push-pull variants, neatly side-stepping the issue of the change from one p-p control system to the other.

 

As for the Well-tanks, Kernow, like everybody else, will have ways of gauging potential demand for models/liveries and may get round to the (commercially) more esoteric ones after they have covered their costs with those estimated to be most in demand. However, old locomotives like these present special problems, having been rebuilt on numerous occasions through their careers, the appearance of individual examples only caught up with the latest specification at their next heavy repair and didn't always get everything then. How far back the existing tooling could actually take them is another factor that Kernow will know more about than I.  

 

As for the "inter-war period", in railway terms, there just isn't a single one. In those twenty years, the industry was transformed almost beyond recognition. Bigger locomotives, longer coaches, simplified liveries, you name it. Yes, there were freak survivals like Well tanks and Adams Radials tucked away in rural idylls but, in general the Big Four were competing to present an image of modernity on their main lines. A good example is the LSWR Ironclad stock, not even built in 1919 and already being relegated to secondary services by 1939. Another;  ECML top link expresses - hauled by not-terribly-modern Atlantics at the beginning, state-of-the-art A4s at the end.

 

The Southern, in particular, almost invented upcycling - meaning that almost all the older, shorter, LSWR coaches were broken up and the compartments rebuilt onto longer underframes, not just the steam-hauled stock shortly to be released by Hornby but far more numerous suburban electric multiple units. 

 

Once any era falls out of living memory, it inevitably falls out of the mainstream of the hobby. Modelling one with any degree of authenticity requires a level of study that few people are willing to put in. Much of what commercial material is produced, comes from people with their own passion for the subject who have long since given up on the likes Hornby, Bachmann, or even Kernow doing it for them and decided not to waste years waiting. The rest comes from kit manufacturers whose 'break-even' numbers are a tiny fraction of those required by the r-t-r boys. Check out the quantities produced of recent/projected Brassmasters loco kits if you doubt the maths.

 

IMHO, creating a 1920s model railway is similar to keeping a 1920s car on the road, you need either to possess the skills to do it yourself or the money to pay a professional. In modelling terms, Soldering Iron, or Cheque book?

 

John    

Edited February 23, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[Edwardian]

So much, I think, is clear, indeed, self-evident in this market, however, I remain of the view that it remains a shame that manufacturers so little dare to modify the market to end dependence on the generational nostalgia cycle.  That's up to them, and those who would buy older versions are doubtless a minority, but they all add up to lost sales.  I would love to support Kernow and other manufacturers, by buying more stuff RTR, but, so long as their release programmes assume an interest on my part in the nostalgia of my parents' generation, I will struggle to find anything to buy from them.

 

The cut-off date of 1930, does, however, mean that I can justify the Gate Stock with O2 for my one Grouping project, so all is not lost from my point of view.  

[BG John]

Is it just the ends of the coaches that are wrong for pre 1930s? If so, could they be designed so the ends are removable, and could be replaced with an earlier version? Kernow, or someone else, could then commission a small batch of conversion kits in etched brass, whitemetal, resin, 3D prints or whatever. They would then be able to make extra sales of the coaches to people like Edwardian (or maybe even me), who would be able to do a fairly straightforward conversion, even if a repaint was needed. When the GWR Railmotor finally appears, they're doing versions in all the early liveries, so must see a demand for pre-grouping models.

[Edwardian]

BG John, we are often corrected by members with actual or apparent knowledge of RTR production methods, so it may be that it was fantastically difficult and costly to do what you suggest, but, I agree, could Kernow not have made provision for the earlier (LSWR) configuration if they had wanted to?

 

It is the seemingly almost callous disregard on the part of manufacturers of the possibility of catering for back-dated versions that makes me so despondent.  Bachmann, I have read, have bodies for the Earl and E4 that come apart to allow parts to be replaced to so that earlier types could be represented.  I doubt Bachmann will produce such variations, but it gives converters a toe hold, if they don't mind invalidating the warranty!  Hornby on the other hand, is a bit of a problem. Would it have killed the chaps at Margate or wherever to have designed the Class 700 so that an earlier body with a lower pitched boiler could be substituted?  Would it have killed them to design toolings for the T9 or J15 that would represent their earlier conditions.

 

I know it's a business, they have to do what the market wants, yahdi yahdi yah, but models only suitable for BR and the end of Grouping have a built in obsolescence that will make them redundant once the BR Steam nostalgia generation has gone to the great Shed in the Sky.

 

I think to cut modellers of earlier periods so completely represents a lost opportunity for RTR manufacturers,  but I daresay they know their own business best.       

[BG John]

I'm sure there are practical manufacturing reasons for doing, and not doing, certain things. But I'm sure there is also a lot of fixed and inflexible thinking too, where things are done a certain way "because that's the way we do things", and everyone in the company is trained to do things the company way. The innovative thinkers are either not hired, or their ideas are rubbished or ignored. A lot of the big discoveries and inventions that have shaped the world have come from people whose brains work differently, and the world would be a very different place without them. Maybe letting some of them loose on designing model railways, would result in some innovative ideas that have the potential to create profitable niche markets for mainstream products.