Kernow commission ex LSWR Gate Stock Pull Push Sets

[Jack P]

 I've used "steel" ones rather than Mansell pattern as the only 1950s photo I've found so far that shows a wheel with much clarity suggests their presence.

 

 

John, would you say that the malachite green SR set would have the maunsell Patterned wheel inserts?

 

Regards

[Ian J.]

Gratuitous piccie of my 373 set, still in box, picked up today from Kernow at Warley:

 

 

Nice

 

I like the look of their Bulleid diesel too. Think I might be ordering one of them at some point...

[Robin Brasher]

I ran my crimson gate stock set at the barn at Godlingston Manor. Unfortunately it derailed on the branch line due to buffer locking when it was being propelled. I may need to fit the alternative couplings as suggested in Model Rail. Unfortunately the M7 did not like the curves on the branch line either. This is a pity as that was what I bought the models for. Perhaps the curves are too tight.

 

The gate stock ran very well on the continuous loops when being pushed and pulled by the M7 and Calbourne. The gate stock forms an important missing link for me when operating my model of the Swanage Railway in British Railways cycling lion days. Before I was only able to run the parcels train, the express and local trains, goods and clay trains but not the push pull trains which were the mainstay of the timetable. I have not got any evidence to show that the gate stock sets ran on the Swanage Railway before 1960 and they do not look much like the LSWR and Ironclad pull-push sets that did. Despite this they are a lot better than running nothing.

 

The Airfix model of Bonchurch church near Ventnor in the Isle of Wight provides a good setting for Calbourne. That class of locomotive also ran on the Swanage Railway before they were shipped to the Isle of Wight and I did see them in operation there under British Railways.

[woodenhead]

I've used the ROCO type couplings for both between coaches and the loco. As the loco and gate stock will remain as a set on Camel Quay I don't see the need for kadee's which is my usual coupling. Removing the uncoupling hoop from the ROCO couplings and turning them upside down brings them close under the buffer beam making them less noticeable.

Are they the same as the Hornby ones you get for close semi permanent coupling on coaches?

[roundhouse]

IIRC correctly the Hornby and Roco ones are very similar if not the same. However I have found them to break if not adequately protected when in storage trays he certainly using Kadees myself. However Kadees do mean there is a but more slack so you don't get quite so good close coupling.

 

Ian

[Dunsignalling]

John, would you say that the malachite green SR set would have the maunsell Patterned wheel inserts?

 

Regards

Anybody's guess.

 

It's possible that such stock receiving heavy overhauls after a certain date might have been given new wheels. It's equally possible that one set got them with any serviceable Mansell wheelsets thus liberated perhaps being re-used to avoid the need to do so on other sets. The Southern wasn't inclined to spend any more than it had to keeping old coaches going.

 

I'm afraid my only advice is to find a dated photo of your chosen set, though if you have as much luck as me finding one where the wheels aren't in deep shade, you'll be very fortunate. 

 

I've jumped one way on the basis of a photo I consider to show that set 374 probably had steel wheels by the mid-1950s. If that proves wrong, it's easy enough to swap them.

 

John

Edited November 27, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[tender]

Are they the same as the Hornby ones you get for close semi permanent coupling on coaches?

 

They look the same but the ROCO ones are a mm or so shorter. I use whichever gives the closest coupling without causing buffer lock.  

[Dunsignalling]

They look the same but the ROCO ones are a mm or so shorter. I use whichever gives the closest coupling without causing buffer lock.  

The Hornby version is more like over 2mm longer than the Roco original.

 

The R.8220s leave a gap of approx. 1mm between gangways on these coaches (static) and they touch when coupling up.

 

The Roco ones are therefore too short to couple automatically (as are one of each) though you can probably make them hook up by manipulating the sprung end-float on the close coupling linkages. No idea what that might do to the running characteristics but presumably the end-float is there for a reason.

 

The buffer heads are set behind the ends of the gangways so buffer locking shouldn't arise.

 

John

 

.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[tender]

They look the same but the ROCO ones are a mm or so shorter.

 

 

The Hornby version is more like 2mm longer than the Roco original.

.

 

[Butler Henderson]

You can couple the Roco to the Hornby so effectively giving you three different overall coupling lengths. I have found the Roco ones to likely to fail due to a part breaking.

[Robin Brasher]

My olive green LSWR gate stock set 374 at the original Swanage station. It is ready to be pushed and pulled by my olive green 02 and fleet of olive green M7s.

[Dunsignalling]

You can couple the Roco to the Hornby so effectively giving you three different overall coupling lengths. I have found the Roco ones to likely to fail due to a part breaking.

Agreed, but in this case the distance is such that you need two Hornby ones if you want them to couple when pushed together.

 

I know, I've tried all the permutations.

 

John

Edited November 28, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Tim Dubya]

How about some scale couplings* between the coaches?

As these would be permanently coupled in a set anyway (I presume). 

 

Do the couplings come out the 'motor man's' end too?

 

Just askin'

 

Cheers

 

*never used these before myself, just pondering close coupling options.

.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Tim Dubya

[Jack P]

How about some scale couplings* between the coaches?

As these would be permanently coupled in a set anyway (I presume). 

 

Do the couplings come out the 'motor man's' end too?

 

Just askin'

 

Cheers

 

*never used these before myself, just pondering close coupling options.

.

 

 

Having just moved to Screw link coupling on all of my stock, I've found that it is really only possible on anything other than prototypical radius if all of your stock has sprung buffers. it looks to me like the gate stock doesn't have sprung buffers, which is a bit of a shame, but as my set hasn't arrived yet, I can't confirm. 

 

The only downside of this is that it would make it hard to use any of the options out there that don't utilize the NEM pocket. 

[tender]

Having just moved to Screw link coupling on all of my stock, I've found that it is really only possible on anything other than prototypical radius if all of your stock has sprung buffers. it looks to me like the gate stock doesn't have sprung buffers, which is a bit of a shame, but as my set hasn't arrived yet, I can't confirm. 

 

The only downside of this is that it would make it hard to use any of the options out there that don't utilize the NEM pocket. 

 

You are correct, the buffers are solid mouldings, but it shouldn't be too difficult to remove them along with the NEM coupling and retrofit sprung buffers and coupling hook.

[Jack P]

You are correct, the buffers are solid mouldings, but it shouldn't be too difficult to remove them along with the NEM coupling and retrofit sprung buffers and coupling hook.

 

Do you know of any replacement LSWR buffers? I know that (markits?) someone does the SECR buffers for the birdcage stock. But unsure of ones for these coaches. 

 

If you are wanting a more prototypical appearance, sprung buffers and a screw link hook would do you right. 

[Tim Dubya]

Are MRD Ironclad buffers any good?

 

http://www.emardee.org.uk/epages/BT4589.mobile/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/BT4589/Products/40179

[Dunsignalling]

How about some scale couplings* between the coaches?

As these would be permanently coupled in a set anyway (I presume). 

 

Do the couplings come out the 'motor man's' end too?

 

Just askin'

 

Cheers

 

*never used these before myself, just pondering close coupling options.

.

Any and all of the close coupling units will come off easily if you don't want them. Remove the bogie and the procedure becomes self-evident. 

 

That said, most "scale couplings" are more like S Scale than 4mm and unless your curves are pretty gentle and you are willing to fit sprung buffers, the CCUs between the coaches will give better appearance and performance for most users. What you do at the ends, and any need for a coupler at the cab end will depend on what your locos have and whether your layout makes it necessary to "hook-on" to that end occasionally.

 

Moreover, even if you do fit sprung buffers, they, just like the solid ones, won't touch because the gangways keep them apart. Achieving absolutely close-coupling on these coaches will also require the gangways to be changed for shorter and/or compressible ones.    

 

None of this is especially difficult; it just depends how much trouble one is willing to go to. However, unless you already use "scale" couplings and they work well on your layout, I'd be inclined to leave well alone.

 

If you want to experiment, do so with a couple of cheap s/h coaches or some oldies you no longer use rather than (at least) a hundred quids-worth of Gate set   

 

John

Edited November 29, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Jack P]

Are MRD Ironclad buffers any good?

 

http://www.emardee.org.uk/epages/BT4589.mobile/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/BT4589/Products/40179

 

 

I'm not a wealth of knowledge, but I think these look a little more accurate to the pictures -

 

Dunsignalling is right though something I hadn't thought about, in that the corridor connections will actually prevent buffers touching anyways. I'm not sure if knuckle couplings would've been used for gate stock, but asa happy compromise I use No. 18 Kadee's on the Hornby Maunsell Corridor stock and they sit flush against each other on straight track, so possibly something to consider?

[bubbles2]

I have fitted a Smiths screw link coupling, un-sprung to the rear of my 02 tank as there is not enough room behind the buffer beam to fit a spring and split pin, this is coupled over the plastic hook provided for the coaches. The minimum radius curve on my layout is 3 feet and the loco and coach buffer locked so I've fitted 16 inch MJT buffer heads and springs by drilling out the existing plastic buffers.

 

Between the coaches I've used the shortest coupling link provided in the Kernow bag of bits, this works well with the corridor connections just about touching.

[Dunsignalling]

I'm not a wealth of knowledge, but I think these look a little more accurate to the pictures -

 

Dunsignalling is right though something I hadn't thought about, in that the corridor connections will actually prevent buffers touching anyways. I'm not sure if knuckle couplings would've been used for gate stock, but asa happy compromise I use No. 18 Kadee's on the Hornby Maunsell Corridor stock and they sit flush against each other on straight track, so possibly something to consider?

These coaches pre-date the adoption of buckeye couplers by the SR by over two decades, so no, they wouldn't have been fitted to the prototype. 

 

Between these coaches, and all others fitted with CCUs, rigid links (as provided by Kernow with the set) or Roco-pattern coupler heads optimise the working of the CCUs. I find semi-permanently coupled coaches inconvenient so prefer the latter unless an electrical link is needed (on the Thumper unit in my case) where I have to put up with it.

 

Kadees don't lock the CCUs together as a unit and, although they do "work", they don't work so well. I use Kadees as my standard coupler but, on carriage sets, I confine them to the outer ends. My only exception to this has been the Hornby 'Lyme Regis' pair which is all-Kadee for flexibility in operation. On the prototype, the BCL often ran alone and the 2-set also ran with the van ends inward at times.

 

The Hornby R8220 is right for the Gate set but leaves a gap on Maunsells, on which I use the shorter Roco 40270/1. At some point, I intend to experiment with Roco/Hornby couplers between my crimson Gate Set and my p/p fitted O2 as I envisage keeping them together.

 

I'll probably replace the gangways eventually, enabling me to close up the spacing and have the buffers touching, but that's a job for when I haven't much else on my plate. While I have them opened-up to do that, I'll add a few passengers to the interiors.

 

John

Edited November 29, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[KymN]

Agreed, but in this case the distance is such that you need two Hornby ones if you want them to couple when pushed together.

 

Mine couple happily with one of each.  But I have yet to run it.

[Dunsignalling]

Mine couple happily with one of each.  But I have yet to run it.

Interesting,  Manufacturing tolerances?

 

I couldn't get mine to do that unless I pulled one of the pockets forward with a bit of wire (very fiddly and ultimately abandoned as a long-term strategy).

 

My BR green set only has about 1mm of clearance between the gangways (static) using two Hornby couplers. My crimson one remains, as yet, unmolested. 

 

I think you may get issues when propelling the set if the corridors are in close contact when at rest but there is quite a lot of end-float in the CCUs. which might well save the day.

 

John

Edited November 29, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[SRman]

My set arrived yesterday. I have posed it on Newton Broadway but it still hasn't actually been run yet.

Edited November 29, 2017 by SRman

[SRman]

Interesting,  Manufacturing tolerances?

 

I couldn't get mine to do that unless I pulled one of the pockets forward with a bit of wire (very fiddly and ultimately abandoned as a long-term strategy).

 

My BR green set only has about 1mm of clearance between the gangways (static) using two Hornby couplers. My crimson one remains, as yet, unmolested. 

 

I think you may get issues when propelling the set if the corridors are in close contact when at rest but there is quite a lot of end-float in the CCUs. which might well save the day.

 

John

 

Using Hornby's close couplings on Bachmann Mark 1 stock also has that problem. However, I found that if I turned the bogies to force the coupling mechanisms outwards, I could couple two coaches (holding them at the appropriate angle in relation to each other)., Returning them to the straight ahead position after coupling up resulted in those corridor connections touching nicely.