RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted February 3, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 3, 2012 FWIW I do agree - especially with stuff like the sleeper which ought to be fairly easy to put an alternative loco on. Lots harder for Virgin and London Midland though as their trains are mostly incompatible with any of the potential other routes to London. I think the only one possible would be using Virgin's voyagers into Marylebone? With what rolling stock? "incompatible". Indeed, but if we still thought about the railway as a network with a number of different operators providing passenger and freight services on it, rather than routes and their TOCs being the primary focus, perhaps we might not be in the situation we are in now. What is so difficult about a token Voyager shuttle to Marylebone - if there was a will, there would be a way. EDIT: There's also that Pretendolino rake a Wembley to use with a Class 67 (if necessary the Thunderbird at KX). The sleepers are 16 coaches long and I doubt there are many Terminii that could be used in the event of a contingency, as they still start from Euston when diverted up the ECML for engineering works. Then there are the staff hours and stock being out of place, as both of tonights sets are north of the blockade. So it's probably easier to declare "game over" and wait for the line to reopen. Sorry, but I simply can't accept that as a reason. If the sleepers could not get to Euston, they could at least stop at a station close enough to provide cross-platform or tube access to central London. Finsbury Park on the ECML for example. The stock could then have gone to Wembley for a Euston start tonight. "Easier to declare game over" is probably right, but I'm afraid as a non-railwayman I find that attitude surprising and not how railwayman friends of mine would have reacted in past. Don't forget it's 2012 and the railway doesn't do the kind of contingencies they used to Maybe not, but perhaps it should. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Another question (from someone not too clued up on all this modern stuff), what's a "Pretendalino" ? Virgin's loco-hauled MkIII cover set, painted to look like a Class 390. From 'pretend' and 'Pendalino.' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted February 3, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2012 I'm guessing that crossover doesn't have approach control, if so, why not...? Would it be because most services would have stopped at Bletchley anyway...? I would be astonished if approach control were not provided. This recent snap http://www.flickr.com/photos/35414756@N07/6486820073/ shows the crossover to be 15 mph, and I'm quite sure signal design standards have not been relaxed enough to permit such a crossover to be approached at linespeed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan452 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Another question (from someone not too clued up on all this modern stuff), what's a "Pretendalino" ? The Virgin Mk3 'Charter Relief' set. Also noting that Hornby have just released 90046 in 'OO'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 3, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2012 Not sure why the point would be normalised then, it's lying normal in the photos. Not sure what the speed through the crossover would be but it's travelled a fair way if it was in the dirt before it got to those points. I think you will find it appears to be lying normal because it has been forced over. Clearly the stock rail has been forced outwards in the Up Fast trailer and that plus the broken 10ft side rail short of the crossing suggest to me that the right-hand wheels were well off the road to the right as the loco trailed into that point (although I'm not so sure where the left-hand wheels were - difficult to assess from the pics) and possibly even went far enough over to clobber the Down Fast? . It is also clear from the distance the loco has travelled beyond the Up Fast trailers that it was still moving 'quite fast' after it had run through those points derailed. Where & how, let alone why, it derailed are another matter and is really in the realms of speculation (against a short list of several 'probables' and the odd 'possible' - we might never know the answer to that unless NR publish any conclusions, which I doubt). The consequences are however plain to see - OHLE is clearly damaged on the Slow Lines and Up Fast, track is badly damaged on the Up Fast, and the derailed loco is foul of the Down Fast as we as blocking the Up Fast. If suitable electrical isolation is possible the Slows would probably be usable (unless there is track damage we haven't seen) at low speed except when the loco is being re-railed and moved. Apart from the track damage in rear of it the loco looks relatively simple to re-rail with no need for a crane but it would almost certainly have to be towed southwards to clear the site and potentially underframe/bogie etc damage might make that very difficult (or it could b ere-railed on the Down Fast possibly - no more difficult than traversing the jacks back to the Up). Just as well it's happened at the start of the weekend as that gives a couple of days to get things sorted ready for normal-ish working on Monday morning with the running junction o/o/u furno pending manufacture (probably) of replacement parts. But as we've already noted that's how quickly BR would have sorted things, and all that might be a bit different now? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I'm guessing that crossover doesn't have approach control, if so, why not...? Would it be because most services would have stopped at Bletchley anyway...? (I'm getting dangerously close to using the words "Network Rail" and "Risk Assessment")... Beast's suggestion is that it was on the fast - i'm not convinced they would have a crossover like that in place on a fast running line with no approach control. http://chriswarman.s...gBjQC&lb=1&s=X2 The trailing point i'm not sure tells us much either way - it seems to be lying somewhere between the two states from the above pic, may well be due to damage. Another question (from someone not too clued up on all this modern stuff), what's a "Pretendalino" ? Virgin runs a push-pull rake of Mk3 hauled stock on the WCML, ostensibly filling in for the set that was written off at Grayrigg, the set is painted up to look a bit like a Pendolino but obviously is a rake of repainted Mk3s and not a 140mph tilting supertrain, so it's been dubbed the 'Pretendalino'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Lambton58 Posted February 3, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 3, 2012 The Virgin Mk3 'Charter Relief' set. Also noting that Hornby have just released 90046 in 'OO'. Virgin's loco-hauled MkIII cover set, painted to look like a Class 390. From 'pretend' and 'Pendalino.' Thanks both. Ralph Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted February 3, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2012 Also noting that Hornby have just released 90046 in 'OO'. And thus a gift for those who enjoy blaming Hornby for everything! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 3, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2012 Generally: how much catenary do they have to remove for cranes to work when re-railing under OLE? Judging from the pics it wouldn't be a crane job - far simpler, cheaper, and much quicker with MFD type jacks and beams which can come in by road (or ro-ro vehicle on the Down Fast). I've seen worse loco derailments than that re-railed without a crane - but then the Canton boys were very, very good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Beast's suggestion is that it was on the fast - i'm not convinced they would have a crossover like that in place on a fast running line with no approach control. http://chriswarman.s...gBjQC&lb=1&s=X2 The trailing point i'm not sure tells us much either way - it seems to be lying somewhere between the two states from the above pic, may well be due to damage. Interesting.... I'm sure we all read the first media reports and assumed it was crossing over to the Up Fast. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted February 3, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2012 I do like that. "Big Jim will be conducting today's pedestrian replacement service; a short rest period is planned whilst he goes into Modelzone/Ian Allan." i did tell them we were going via McDonalds and they were treating me!! is very busy at moor st at the minute and my 13.12 off snow hill has been upgraded from a 3 car 168 to a 7 coach loco hauled set, sweet! got a loco to and from london today which is nice Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debs. Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Judging from the pics it wouldn't be a crane job - far simpler, cheaper, and much quicker with MFD type jacks and beams which can come in by road (or ro-ro vehicle on the Down Fast). I've seen worse loco derailments than that re-railed without a crane - but then the Canton boys were very, very good. Thanks Mike........I had visions of the Ainscough boys sitting in a Staffordshire lay-by, waiting for the call! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Interesting.... I'm sure we all read the first media reports and assumed it was crossing over to the Up Fast. That would still be my interpretation of what it looks like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 is very busy at moor st at the minute and my 13.12 off snow hill has been upgraded from a 3 car 168 to a 7 coach loco hauled set, sweet! What a shame the railway isn't doing anything to keep things moving like wot it used to... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted February 3, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2012 What a shame the railway isn't doing anything to keep things moving like wot it used to... Nicely put, Martyn! Evidently some parts of the railway see a bigger picture, although having the stock available surely helps. It would seem that Big Jim's own attitude is echoed in his employer, which is nice, and not always the case in C21, frankly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 3, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2012 "incompatible". Indeed, but if we still thought about the railway as a network with a number of different operators providing passenger and freight services on it, rather than routes and their TOCs being the primary focus, perhaps we might not be in the situation we are in now. What is so difficult about a token Voyager shuttle to Marylebone - if there was a will, there would be a way. EDIT: There's also that Pretendolino rake a Wembley to use with a Class 67 (if necessary the Thunderbird at KX). To run a 'Voyager shuttle' to Marylebone means that you need a set, or sets, to do it plus Drivers and almost certainly Conductor Drivers - I'm not sure how many Voyager sets VirginW has but it would need about half a dozen to run anything approaching an hourly service plus the paths for them and the platforms at Marylebone and I doubt if that's on for many reasons. Simplest answer is send passengers to Marylebone/Brum Moor St as an alternative route. Sorry, but I simply can't accept that as a reason. If the sleepers could not get to Euston, they could at least stop at a station close enough to provide cross-platform or tube access to central London. Finsbury Park on the ECML for example. The stock could then have gone to Wembley for a Euston start tonight. "Easier to declare game over" is probably right, but I'm afraid as a non-railwayman I find that attitude surprising and not how railwayman friends of mine would have reacted in past. The old West Coast CP1 and CP2 contingency plans had a variety of diversion scenarios - one was via Oxford & Bletchley but the track is no longer fit for that over part of that section and in any case capacity is very low. The other was via Oxford and Banbury (and via Acton Wells in both cases) but whichever they were an absolute b*gger to get into operation even with the resources at BR's disposal. We now have a situation with far, far fewer 'spare Drivers and Guards plus there are nowhere near enough locos to haul Pendolinos and there isn't much in the way of alternative stock. Even when planned in advance the train service was so drastically thinned, and journey time greatly extended that it was sometimes not considered worth the efforts for more than token number of trains (and often it couldn't be resourced beyond that anyway). I spent a lot of my later BR and operating company years doing ad hoc and 'contingency plan' type service introductions at short/very short notice and it is akin to playing three dimensional chess when - often - you don't even know how many pieces you have left in play. In other words it is not simply a matter of saying 'we have got a xxxx or yyy' but looking for all the other bits to put with them at the right time. I'm not, I hope, boasting when I say that in BR days there were very few of us who could do a major programme on an ad-hoc basis in the time available and you could guarantee even with things like CP1 and CP2 that the only way you could introduce them was with allot of ad-hocery to get stuff and people into the right places. In summary it is, and long has been, a far from simple job. Best answer is to send the passengers via alternative routes, not the trains (unless it is a very simple diversion). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meld Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Mitigation is the Name of the game and the Up Fast line Controled Signal would certainly be fitted with TPWS, both Overspeed and Stop versions should be in place. They would definetly be in place on the Controlled Signal for the Up Slow, even if the signal is fitted with ARS the speed differential between the through and turn out routes is so great that it might even have ATPWS grids especialy for the turnout speed. Therefore I would have expected the loco to be brought to a controlled stand due to intervention of the onboard system, generating a Unrequested Brake Application ( UBA ) of the "traction unit", long before it would have got to the turnout ........... There appears to be no damage to any of the track work until we arrive at the section of the UP Fast ( although hard to tell on the pictures, But absolutely no distortion is visable to me on the turnout or diamond on the slow lines, and any OHL damage in the crossing area from the slow to the fast could have been lateral 'pull' from the already de wired Pan head. If it is/was a broken rail on the fast the fact that the turnout rail is in the way could/would/should have been enough at 65mph( ? ) to push the loco of to the right and thus cause the damage to the down fast as well, wit the Pan twisting off to the left as it de wired and the snagged in the turnout/ crossover OHL run in ... ( 90's have a habit of bouncing on the flexicoils as a high speed L/E too so I understand ) .. I would have thought that if travelling at speed and crossing out at that sort of speed on a 15mph permited turnout would have had the 90 now being a part of the Bletchly flyover .. just look at 50042 at Paddington when it hit a 15mph Turnout ... Anyway all this is speculation and best guess really , just glad that a fellow professional is only 'walking wounded' and that no-one else was involved in or lost limb or life through the incident .. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Pannier Tank Posted February 3, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 3, 2012 The old West Coast CP1 and CP2 contingency plans had a variety of diversion scenarios - one was via Oxford & Bletchley but the track is no longer fit for that over part of that section and in any case capacity is very low. During the 1960's rebuild of the WCML some trains were diverted via Claydon LNE into Marylebone. That's all gone now thogh! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 What a shame the railway isn't doing anything to keep things moving like wot it used to... Indeed, but by addressing a very, very small part of the problem with BR stock, if not a BR loco! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted February 3, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2012 Interesting.... I'm sure we all read the first media reports and assumed it was crossing over to the Up Fast. Most, not all Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meld Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Hi All Chris Warman ( His Photo's linked earlier in the thread ) has Just reported via the SEGen Yahoo group that the slow lines have re-opened as of 14:30, So I would expect that they played no part in the incident at all .. Fast are probably Monday some time at the earliest ... Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 During the 1960's rebuild of the WCML some trains were diverted via Claydon LNE into Marylebone. That's all gone now thogh! I think it's due to be back soon which is nice - but even if it was available there's a big difference between organising a planned diversion during engineering works and an ad-hoc one during an unplanned closure... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I would have thought that if travelling at speed and crossing out at that sort of speed on a 15mph permited turnout would have had the 90 now being a part of the Bletchly flyover .. just look at 50042 at Paddington when it hit a 15mph Turnout ... Anyway all this is speculation and best guess really , just glad that a fellow professional is only 'walking wounded' and that no-one else was involved in or lost limb or life through the incident .. Mike Hi Mike, Sorry to digress, but don't you mean 50 041 at Paddington? Just to add, the crossing it hit was a 25mph one, not 15mph. Nidge Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meld Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Hi Mike, Sorry to digress, but don't you mean 50 041 at Paddington? Just to add, the crossing it hit was a 25mph one, not 15mph. Nidge That's the one It was a long time ago ..... Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted February 3, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2012 Looking at the photos there would appear to be enough people there to simply lift the thing back on to the tracks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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