Bachmann announce L&Y 2-4-2T

[amdaley]

The" fair" way to sell it is to start at the price it was originally sold at .Its then up to the buyer to make their own decision which of course they do when they pay nearly double. anyway  Personally I  would sell it for what i thought I could get .Its called business and isnt illegal or low practice .No-one sells their house  or car for less money than all the others unless it has problems or the owner is desperate  .Cant see why anyone gets their knickers in a twist about it . :-)

 

Of course that's your right.

No one has their knickers in a twist over it  but I think it just sits uneasily with some of us.

[The Stationmaster]

I would agree with your thoughts on the matter but for Locomotion the next order number would have been 1008 because as someone mentioned Bachmann has a minimum order of 504 or multiples of that number, if I understand it correctly ?

Would they sell that many ?

Exactly so - just because they quickly sold 500 would they equally quickly sell another 500?  Locomotion will know how many orders they couldn't fill although they won't know about other folk who might belatedly have wanted 1008 from them - but what they do know is at least an indication of demand and taht would influence any decision.

 

I suspect the 500 is figure related to experience, past survey regarding interest and so one - plus taking care not to over-commit.  Just because they sold 500 doesn't mean they could sell 1,000.

[Ian Hargrave]

The" fair" way to sell it is to start at the price it was originally sold at .Its then up to the buyer to make their own decision which of course they do when they pay nearly double. anyway  Personally I  would sell it for what i thought I could get .Its called business and isnt illegal or low practice .No-one sells their house  or car for less money than all the others unless it has problems or the owner is desperate  .Cant see why anyone gets their knickers in a twist about it . :-)

A car depreciates in value as soon as is taxed.A house may either accrue value (in the South East/London area) or get caught in negative equity ( North West/North East)

The NRM is not a merchant bank or a building society giving loans or selling bonds for investment purposes.It is a charity which depends on support where it can get it...e.g.the sale of the L&Y tank.

Locomotion Models have been appreciative of the support of members of this forum during the marketing and sales of this model and have posted to that effect and they are unhappy with the turn events have taken today.

This was designed and developed by enthusiasts for enthusiasts and NOT for investment purposes.Anyone who purchases for immediate profit is depriving another of the enjoyment of it. THAT is what 'twists MY knickers'.

Have we really gone so far down the road of market forces that we see the percentage profit rather than innocent enjoyment as our road to salvation? This isn't a house or a car.It's a model locomotive and a damned fine one at that.....to be enjoyed,not sold on for a fast buck.

[bluebottle]

May I repeat here what I've posted on the “Locomotion / NRM L &Y tank” thread?

I trust that those who regret missing L&Y No. 1008 will now go for the forthcoming Bachmann B.R. No.50795: not only pretty in ex-works lined black, but a useful engine - one of 124 of the class which were taken into B.R. stock in 1948 and which became widespread throughout the north of England. Final withdrawal of the survivors not until 1962!

 

 

[Mike Riley]

People keep referring to NRM as a charity.  It is a national museum and thus a wholly owned subsidiary of the British government which is not a charity.  Because of funding restrictions from their owner, NRM solicit donations but that doesn't make it a charity.

 

Mike

[dibber25]

It's one thing to try to stop an Ebay trader profiteering when the model is still available from the original supplier. It is something else again to stop it once the original run is sold out. On several occasions I had to attempt to stop Ebay traders selling MR limited editions at inflated prices while they were still available from MR at the original price. It was purely a moral request - there was no law I could invoke to make them comply. I was only successful on one occasion and that was when the model went on sale on Ebay BEFORE any had been distributed by MR. The model was being handled by a fulfilment company (not MR or Kernow, I hasten to add) and the model on Ebay had been stolen from new stock. I got the Ebay ad removed and had the satisfaction of costing the person their job but in simple cases where a model had been bought and then sold on at an inflated price, there was actually very little that could be done.

CHRIS LEIGH

[Ian Hargrave]

It's one thing to try to stop an Ebay trader profiteering when the model is still available from the original supplier. It is something else again to stop it once the original run is sold out. On several occasions I had to attempt to stop Ebay traders selling MR limited editions at inflated prices while they were still available from MR at the original price. It was purely a moral request - there was no law I could invoke to make them comply. I was only successful on one occasion and that was when the model went on sale on Ebay BEFORE any had been distributed by MR. The model was being handled by a fulfilment company (not MR or Kernow, I hasten to add) and the model on Ebay had been stolen from new stock. I got the Ebay ad removed and had the satisfaction of costing the person their job but in simple cases where a model had been bought and then sold on at an inflated price, there was actually very little that could be done.

CHRIS LEIGH

Yes,I well remember that one Chris...as the RMWebber who spotted it on e-bay for you!

[Oldddudders]

People keep referring to NRM as a charity.  It is a national museum and thus a wholly owned subsidiary of the British government which is not a charity.  Because of funding restrictions from their owner, NRM solicit donations but that doesn't make it a charity.

 

Mike

Perhaps you'd better tell the NRM they are not a charity, because they seem to think they are.

 

http://www.nrm.org.uk/NRM/GetInvolved/donatingtothemuseum.aspx

[neal]

Or these could be oscillations caused by the water slopping in the tanks and scale springing to the driving wheel axles!

Happily mine appears to be the modified version with baffles in the water tanks, and firmer springing so that it runs straight as a die.

 

With a nudge, starts and runs with 6 mk1's around 2nd/3rd radii. Just a quiet buzzzzzzzzzzzz.

 

V. Impressed, and not going on eBay!

 

N

[Fenman]

People keep referring to NRM as a charity.  It is a national museum and thus a wholly owned subsidiary of the British government which is not a charity.  Because of funding restrictions from their owner, NRM solicit donations but that doesn't make it a charity.

 

Mike

 

Charities are not "owned" by anyone: their assets are held in trust by trustees, who may only use those assets for the registered charitable purposes (like everything else in Britain there are actually a handful of charities that are a bit different - they are "exempt charities", to be technical - but the principle is the same).

 

But you are not alone in this misconception; the UK government thought it could dissolve the British Film Institute (a registered charity) and give it to the UK Film Council (an "Arms Length Public Body", not a registered charity). It announced that there should only be one body for film... but then when it got round to consulting lawyers, it found it had no powers to force the BFI to do anything. Having committed to one body for film, the government then dissolved the UK Film Council and gave what was left to the BFI.

 

Charities are strange and interesting things. But they are certainly not "owned" by the government.

 

Paul

[truffy]

I have no particular problem with E Bay sales like this.

Its their loco so they can ask whatever they want for it.

 

I'm sure some desperate person with more money than sense will buy it.

I know It won't be me. 

While I agree that it's a buyers' market, and the market will bear whatever price people are willing to pay, I object to ebayers simply buying stuff to make a profit, while denying genuine sales. They're parasites and add nothing to the value chain, rather like the financial speculators that brought on the recession.

[mightymac]

There are about 8 models left at Shildon - kept in case any are lost/damaged/faulty and need to be replaced.  After 2 or 3 weeks when everyone is happy with their models, they will be for sale.  Not totally over yet for anyone who didn't  manage to bag one earlier.

[amdaley]

There are about 8 models left at Shildon - kept in case any are lost/damaged/faulty and need to be replaced.  After 2 or 3 weeks when everyone is happy with their models, they will be for sale.  Not totally over yet for anyone who didn't  manage to bag one earlier.

 

Hopefully someone who pre-ordered & didn't get a model will be lucky this time.

[Oldddudders]

While I agree that it's a buyers' market, and the market will bear whatever price people are willing to pay, I object to ebayers simply buying stuff to make a profit, while denying genuine sales. They're parasites and add nothing to the value chain, rather like the financial speculators that brought on the recession.

Indeed. Effectively, someone will have overspent their modelling budget by roundly £100, so that's £100 which will not enrich the real market, simply some tow-rag's pocket.

[billbedford]

Err no. No one has to buy this model at this price. People may choose to, but that is really something different.

[Guest Mikado]

Err no. No one has to buy this model at this price. People may choose to, but that is really something different.

Spot on comment Bill, I wonder when any of the chaps who object to the sellers of new and rare items for a profit actually have sold any of their own property for less than they could get for it?

Come the revolution all modellers will be issued a set number of items per year according to need and black marketeers will be sent to Gulags in Siberia

Edited November 25, 2013 by Mikado

[Downer]

There's a difference between making a profit and profiteering.

[Andy Hayter]

While I agree that it a shame that some have bought this only for profit and have denied "real" modellers of the chance of having one at a sensible price, on what basis do we really condemn them?? 

 

I would also have fancied one of these, although I have no layout on which to run one and no LYR stock to run with it.  Would that have made me a hoarder?  Waiting for the time when I (or more likely my heirs) chose to downsize and dispose of said model (at I suppose a profit).  Would that have made me a dreaded collector and so also deprive the modeller from his just rights?

 

And why is this model so popular?  I recently bought the GCR Butler Henderson model several months after release - and still available.  My motivation - again a model I like as a model, but in this case I can at least claim a short rake if scratch built GCR coaches to go with it - but still no layout.  Hence the priority to buy this and not the LYR tank. (Bu@@er, Bu@@er, Bu@@er).

 

Why do some models sell out in weeks (and offer the model speculator the chance to make fine profit) while others seem to sell more slowly?  What makes the LYR tank and the SECR C2 so popular and seemingly the GCR model less so?  Do these speculators actually have a stock of models like the D11 that they cannot (yet) offer to market, that balances the C2s and LYR tanks?

 

So many questions, but can we, should we, condemn people who spot a chance and take it?

[Guest Mikado]

There's a difference between making a profit and profiteering.

Please explain the difference?

[Downer]

According to my dictionary, a profiteer is 'one who takes advantage of an emergency to make exorbitant profits.'   

[dandg]

The item was ended at 2115.

 

"This listing was ended by the seller because there was an error in the listing."

 

1008 now appears to have sold out at NRM and the carpet-bagging Ebay prices have started.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bachmann-L-YR-Tank-1008-NRM-Exclusive-31-165NRM-BNIB-00-Gauge-DCC-Ready-/221324259592?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item3387f43108

[Paul Cram]

According to my dictionary, a profiteer is 'one who takes advantage of an emergency to make exorbitant profits.'   

As there was no emergency then they are not profiteering by that definition. It is not a required purchase. The nature of limited runs is to provide an investment opportunity. The point at which one realises that investment is up to the individual concerned. If a modeller has missed out it was because they were to slow too order knowing it was a limited run. How many people don't buy when a model is released in the hope that it will reduce in price when they fail to sell?

Edited November 25, 2013 by Paul Cram

[Stanley Melrose]

Err no. No one has to buy this model at this price. People may choose to, but that is really something different.

And that is it in a nutshell.  If anyone wanted one at the NRM price all they had to do was order one.  If they didn't and still want one, they now have to decide whether it is worth the market (i.e eBay) price.  No point in whinging, we all had the chance to order at the NRM price but now reality kicks in.

 

Stan

[Guest Mikado]

According to my dictionary, a profiteer is 'one who takes advantage of an emergency to make exorbitant profits.'   

Where is the emergency?

[Downer]

The same dictionary describes an emergency as, among other things, a 'pressing necessity.'  And if  someone's wish to own a limited edition model is less than vital in the wider scheme of things, it remains a 'pressing necessity' for the person in question.  One which the profiteer is exploiting.

But this is all becoming a bit silly.  Can we just leave it that some people, like myself, find this sort of behaviour morally and socially unacceptable, while others, like you, do not. 

Edited November 26, 2013 by Downer