Kirkby Luneside (Original): End of the line....

[Rowsley17D]

I'd just written you an extensive reply to your post and managed to lose it using this stupid phone!!

 

You make some good points - I'll try again when I can use my laptop. Too

many active buttons for my clumsy fingers on a little screen!!

 

Suffice to say I too have need and want problems!

 

Jeff

 

You know when you are getting old when.......

[ChrisN]

Just popped in to see if anyone had posted...very quiet on here.

 

Not being able to do any modelling means I'm doing lots of scheming and planning. The thing is, how many locos do I REALLY need on here??!!!

 

Jeff

 

Jeff,

What you do is you make up/ find a timetable, both passenger and goods.  You then make up a movement diagram between the sheds the train locos would use and then from the depots at either end of the line allocate locos for the next day and so on until you get back to the original locos.  You can throw in different locos to cover failed machines etc, (I have recently seen photos of 9Fs pulling passenger trains to cover failed Jubilees,) and there you have it.  You can then work out how many of each you need!

 

Simples!

[Physicsman]

Jeff,What you do is you make up/ find a timetable, both passenger and goods. You then make up a movement diagram between the sheds the train locos would use and then from the depots at either end of the line allocate locos for the next day and so on until you get back to the original locos. You can throw in different locos to cover failed machines etc, (I have recently seen photos of 9Fs pulling passenger trains to cover failed Jubilees,) and there you have it. You can then work out how many of each you need! Simples!

Hi Chris.

 

What you say has a lot of merit and you may recall Peter providing me with shed allocations for Carlisle Kingmoor and Leeds Holbeck for my chosen period...

 

I'll probably invent some schedules as the layout nears completion. In the meantime it looks like I'll have 3 or 4 of all the main types of locos by the time I get there...

 

Jeff

Edited June 24, 2013 by Physicsman

[uax6]

That shot of the WD is lovely because it is a shot looking down on it, so you get to see more details of where the filth ended up.

 

I think the main reasons why steam lost the fight where muiltifold, the cost of decent coal was becoming excessive compared to importing diesel oil, the recuitment of men to work with dirt was becoming almost impossible, with the booming factories offering cleaner work at the same or better wages, and the general rundowness of the whole system wasn't really attractive, as it was old hat, the future was cars and air travel......

 

Dieselising offered cleaness and the possiblity of one man in the cab, saving money in the rising post war economy....

 

 

Andy G (cheery as ever!)

[BR(W)]

Just popped in to see if anyone had posted...very quiet on here.

 

Not being able to do any modelling means I'm doing lots of scheming and planning. The thing is, how many locos do I REALLY need on here??!!!

 

Jeff

Scheming and planning needs inspiration. How about this?

 

 

I'm pretty sure that's the brooding mass of Wild Boar Fell (2,323 ft.) in the background. The working is an up 'Long Meg' anhydrite working approaching Ais Gill, the line's summit (1,169 ft.) having just been passed.

 

The photo is from the wonderful, highly recommended collection of the late Paul Claxton, compiled by his brother, Mike, in memoriam. The collection is licensed under Creative Commons: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/deed.en_US

 

Cheers,

 

BR(W).

 

Edit to confirm location and working.

Edited July 13, 2013 by BR(W)

[Physicsman]

That shot of the WD is lovely because it is a shot looking down on it, so you get to see more details of where the filth ended up. I think the main reasons why steam lost the fight where muiltifold, the cost of decent coal was becoming excessive compared to importing diesel oil, the recuitment of men to work with dirt was becoming almost impossible, with the booming factories offering cleaner work at the same or better wages, and the general rundowness of the whole system wasn't really attractive, as it was old hat, the future was cars and air travel...... Dieselising offered cleaness and the possiblity of one man in the cab, saving money in the rising post war economy....  Andy G (cheery as ever!)

So what do we, as modellers, do?....

 

Cover our models in filth to glory in the sh*t that lead to their demise.

 

Jeff

[uax6]

So what do we, as modellers, do?....

 

Cover our models in filth to glory in the sh*t that lead to their demise.

 

Jeff

 

Strange isn't it? But then again I've never understood the fasination that everyone seems to have with the end of steam, the days just after the grouping were much more interesting to us that are too young to remember steam. The locos were clean and well cared for, the carriages were clean, and lots of interesting stock was about.

 

Why do you like grotty locos carriages and wagons?

 

Andy G

[Physicsman]

Strange isn't it? But then again I've never understood the fasination that everyone seems to have with the end of steam, the days just after the grouping were much more interesting to us that are too young to remember steam. The locos were clean and well cared for, the carriages were clean, and lots of interesting stock was about. Why do you like grotty locos carriages and wagons? Andy G

Good question.

 

I didn't used to like weathered locos - far preferred them clean...

 

But the world isn't perfect and so neither should the locos and rolling stock be.

 

And I think dirty locos DO look better...

 

Jeff

Edited June 24, 2013 by Physicsman

[southern42]

Hi Jeff.

 

A couple of other suggestions for estimating stock on the layout / incorporating your many locos:
Trains double headed/banked - I presume that occurred on the S&C.  An excellent way to show off more engines...

Then there were steam locos rescuing the 'new' diesels in distress [apologies if this upsets all you diesel owners].

And possibly, in a similar vein, various items of rolling stock for ballasting, killing weeds, derailments, and so on. No doubt there were various incidents on the line within your time span and area. [One incident I've read about recently was a South Wales tour derailment of Britannia "Polar Star" near Didcot 1955 with a 72xx brought in to help the rescue.  It was the latter that caught my attention - I wondered if was it one of the new Hornby ones - as you do.

 

One 'trick' I've learnt about is knowing which way round locos went up and down the line and that some locos frequently went out tender end first is bound to give a layout (mine, anyway) some variety.

 

I'm sure you and others can add to the list, so lots of variation possible each time you play trains run a schedule.

 

Hope I've not duplicate what's already been said.

 

Polly

[Physicsman]

Morning Polly. Good to hear from you - it seems ages since you've been on here!

 

Thanks for the suggestions. Double heading certainly did take place up the Long Drag and I've numerous photos with examples of this.

 

There is definitely no excuse for a lack of operating interest - though I often think I'll end up just playing trains...and what's wrong with that? Lol.

 

Jeff

Edited June 25, 2013 by Physicsman

[Rowsley17D]

 

Strange isn't it? But then again I've never understood the fasination that everyone seems to have with the end of steam, the days just after the grouping were much more interesting to us that are too young to remember steam. The locos were clean and well cared for, the carriages were clean, and lots of interesting stock was about.

 

Why do you like grotty locos carriages and wagons?

 

Andy G

Thank goodness somebody else likes clean(ish) looking stock. Good for you Andy G. My period is mid to late 30s so only limited weathering for me on my engines and coaches. Might be a bit heavier on the goods stock though. Each to their own.

[P.C.M]

Just been catching up Jeff,

I really like those 9fs though some real coal in the tenders would really finish them off. 

 

With regard to what locos you will need, I made up a timetable for Llanbourne then made up loco diagrams to suit, it helped me work out what locos I would need and what I had to get plus a few spares of course.

 

Cheers Peter.

[The Stationmaster]

Strange isn't it? But then again I've never understood the fasination that everyone seems to have with the end of steam, the days just after the grouping were much more interesting to us that are too young to remember steam. The locos were clean and well cared for, the carriages were clean, and lots of interesting stock was about.

 

Why do you like grotty locos carriages and wagons?

 

Andy G

Alas contemporaneous photos show that in the early Post-Group period, and on into the 1930s, all was not clean in the world of locos and passenger stock - in fact some locos were positively filthy although not in the sort of condition that could be seen in the final BR period when water treatment and even mechanical etc attention was rapidly falling by the wayside.

[Physicsman]

Alas contemporaneous photos show that in the early Post-Group period, and on into the 1930s, all was not clean in the world of locos and passenger stock - in fact some locos were positively filthy although not in the sort of condition that could be seen in the final BR period when water treatment and even mechanical etc attention was rapidly falling by the wayside.

Thanks to Mike and fellow gents...

 

You are keeping me well entertained while I'm away from KL. A very interesting discussion on weathering - the need thereof - and scheduling.... Many thanks.

 

I don't see myself as a loco "collector" as my primary aim is to run stock and not just display it. But it's deeply satisfying planning out what I need and acquiring the relevant locos.

 

Just as a matter of interest, 24/36 of my steam locos are weathered to one degree or another. Only 1/23 of my diesels is weathered.

 

Jeff

Edited June 25, 2013 by Physicsman

[Kingmoorkid]

Scheming and planning needs inspiration. How about this?

 

 

I'm pretty sure that's the brooding mass of Ingleborough in the background.

 

The photo is from the wonderful, highly recommended collection of the late Paul Claxton, compiled by his brother, Mike, in memoriam. The collection is licensed under Creative Commons: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/deed.en_US

 

Cheers,

 

BR(W).

 

 

Great picture but I think its approaching Ais Gill from the North and that's Wild Boar Fell in the background.   Still a great place to watch steam specials & freight trains go by, loaded coal and log trains are passing here at about 10 miles an hour as they struggle the last few yards to the summit. 

 

KingmoorKid (Simon)

[uax6]

Alas contemporaneous photos show that in the early Post-Group period, and on into the 1930s, all was not clean in the world of locos and passenger stock - in fact some locos were positively filthy although not in the sort of condition that could be seen in the final BR period when water treatment and even mechanical etc attention was rapidly falling by the wayside.

Ah indeed this is true, but the thing that probably makes it seem better is that the liveries were much nicer and not just all over black, and, as you say, they weren't allowed to get as poor as the late BR days. Up in the Highlands it would appear that things were generally well looked after (well they had the time with so few services(!)), although there are always exceptions.

 

Andy G

[uax6]

 

 

Thank goodness somebody else likes clean(ish) looking stock. Good for you Andy G. My period is mid to late 30s so only limited weathering for me on my engines and coaches. Might be a bit heavier on the goods stock though. Each to their own.

I'm somewhere in the late '20's and early '30's, but still LMS. Sadly this means more lining on the coaches and locos!

 

Andy G

[robmcg]

My impression in looking at photos of all periods is that 1930s stock and engines were different in that, quite obviously, they were only cleaned by hand, where by the 1960s carriages at least were often machine-washed. It makes for, in my eyes, a subtle difference. Only express engines got any kind of regular cleaning in both periods. Even in 1960 sheds like Waverley turned out remarkably clean express engines. And King's Cross sometimes.

 

In NZ the only time engines were particularly clean was after overhaul, otherwise they had a greyish sooty patina, quite attractive in what was originally black gloss with red buffers and brass number plates and maker's plates. Either way, they never quite got as rusty, grimy and careworn as some late-BR engines!

Edited June 25, 2013 by robmcg

[Physicsman]

Please remember that KL is set predominantly around the mid 60s, with the option to cover 1958-1960ish.

 

Consequently, the steam locos on the layout will generally be in a grotty condition.

 

Now what kind of state would the DIESELS be in? As relatively "new kids on the block" I expect they were comparitively clean.

 

Jeff

[uax6]

I wouldn't bank on your diesels being clean Jeff. Some got quite filthy, quite quickly too. Certainly the bogies need fairly heavy weathering, as the need to keep them clean of oil and dirt wasn't appreaciated early on (hence so many bogie fires... now that would make an interesting model ;-} ).

 

Andy G

[southern42]

I see there is much debate on pristine v weathered stock.  Guess it'll always be there and I'm a bit of a convert to mucky myself, as I've said before.

We can always meet half way, of course, and select which to grubby up and which to leave alone.  So, how about mucky goods and clean passenger as, even in late BR days, passenger trains do appear in photos with a bit of a shine.  And by, then, there were also spruced up preserved favourites in earlier liveries - T9 No. 120, Pendennis Castle and the Flying Scotsman, spring to mind. 

 

Seemples....

[Physicsman]

I see there is much debate on pristine v weathered stock.  Guess it'll always be there and I'm a bit of a convert to mucky myself, as I've said before.We can always meet half way, of course, and select which to grubby up and which to leave alone.  So, how about mucky goods and clean passenger as, even in late BR days, passenger trains do appear in photos with a bit of a shine.  And by, then, there were also spruced up preserved favourites in earlier liveries - T9 No. 120, Pendennis Castle and the Flying Scotsman, spring to mind.  Seemples....

Polly - your solution sounds good to me as I'll be running predominantly freight operations on KL.

 

Jeff

[southern42]

Me too.  Good innit?  :sungum:

[Kingmoorkid]

Please remember that KL is set predominantly around the mid 60s, with the option to cover 1958-1960ish.

 

Consequently, the steam locos on the layout will generally be in a grotty condition.

 

Now what kind of state would the DIESELS be in? As relatively "new kids on the block" I expect they were comparitively clean.

 

Jeff

 

 

Evening Jeff

 

There never seemed to be much cleaning of diesels at Kingmoor - they were pretty grubby by the early 60s from photographic evidence.  When I started spotting in early 70's the Class 25s and 40s allocated to D10 Preston Division were often in filthy green livery which they had carried for ten years plus, I suspect they had had minimal external cleaning in that period, but still seemed mechanically sound.   I think a well weathered diesel on some well weathered wagons will look the business trundling over that viaduct.

 

There are a few livery options to go for as well - how about a lightly weathered all green Holbeck Peak with no white stripe, split headcodes and small yellow ends as seen on D16 in 1967.  

 

Your rate of progress is impressive by the way - the walls are fantastic. 

 

 

Cheers

 

KK (Simon)  

[Alister_G]

I see there is much debate on pristine v weathered stock.  Guess it'll always be there and I'm a bit of a convert to mucky myself, as I've said before.

We can always meet half way, of course, and select which to grubby up and which to leave alone.  So, how about mucky goods and clean passenger as, even in late BR days, passenger trains do appear in photos with a bit of a shine.  And by, then, there were also spruced up preserved favourites in earlier liveries - T9 No. 120, Pendennis Castle and the Flying Scotsman, spring to mind. 

 

Seemples....

 

And even this is not necessarily the case, see here:

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bakewell/index40.shtml

 

This is a London - Manchester express, and a filthier looking diseasel would be hard to find.

 

The other thing to bear in mind is that for both your chosen location and mine, even if the train set off from it's starting point "daan sarf" in fairly decent condition, by the time it got to the areas we are modelling it would have picked up a fair old plastering of muck in anything but the driest weather.