Kenton Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Why not build a very simple P4 diorama with a piece of RTR track, and maybe build a point (the same procedure as in OO but with much finer check rail and crossing clearances). Do a simple wheel conversion to one of your excess OO diesels using an Ultrascale conversion pack, paint and weather the aforementioned nicely and ballast the track. That is easy to answer, why bother when you can do all that in OO or even EM and content with the result? (I still can't tell the difference between an EM and P4 layout) Of course if you model in OO and feel the need to change track then no problem with experimenting. Once again we have a suggestion that the solution to a non-existant problem is to go P4. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Hale Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Here is a possible placebo for the hard core OO supporter amongst us. Why not build a very simple P4 diorama with a piece of RTR track, and maybe build a point (the same procedure as in OO but with much finer check rail and crossing clearances). Cheers Simon As I am at the 'cusp' of a small diorama and qualify as a rabid OO user, I just might have a go. Thanks for the kick up the backside. Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 As I am at the 'cusp' of a small diorama and qualify as a rabid OO user, I just might have a go. Thanks for the kick up the backside. Tim Having been following your current southern OO layout, I have no doubt that any diorama you build (in P4?) will be a cracking effort Tim. Cheers Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted October 4, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 4, 2012 This has all become so bloody tiresome. I model primarily in P4 but have recently come back to 00-FS, with 0m and N amongst others 'in the wings' and have never, repeat never, nit-picked, whined and tried to 'convert or belittle' anyone who doesn't model in P4 on here or elsewhere. All that interests me is good modelling in any gauge/scale. It can be of a 'basic or advanced' nature. It doesn't matter. For the life of me, I cannot see the point of all this cr*p and sniping. It's all so unneccessary and boring. I would hope that this rotting corpse isn't dug up again next year. As for this year's S4um, I was there with an exhibitor and had a splendid time. There was a welcoming atmosphere with appreciative crowds around the layout and best of all, lots of smiles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 That is easy to answer, why bother when you can do all that in OO or even EM and content with the result? (I still can't tell the difference between an EM and P4 layout) Of course if you model in OO and feel the need to change track then no problem with experimenting. Once again we have a suggestion that the solution to a non-existant problem is to go P4. There is no problem, only "one" that exists in certain folks heads. There's no point trying to convince you that EM and P4 have a different appearance; if you're happy with this then no one can argue the toss. However, if one looks at two B6 turnouts (for example) side by side in EM and P4 the clearances on check rails and crossings are noticeable and as for wheel profiles and flanges then usually there is quite a big difference, although some have used EM wheels successfully on P4 track. For most P4 modellers I'd hazard a guess and say they choose P4 rather than EM because they know psychologically that it adheres to the prototype as closely as possible, whereas EM is a compromise between OO and P4. Nothing wrong in that, but for some like me, I'd rather have a real Rolex rather than a copy from the far east (I can't afford either by the way!). Cheers Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon020 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 final call...any last pictures from the show? Many thanks to all those who posted the photos...including Paul's hint there may be some more. Still wish I could have made it to the show... Again, per Pete's comment. Any more pics would be great on here. This topic is about a particular show, which I think that many enjoyed; I did! So perhaps we can keep to the subject of "the show" and leave other matters for other subject threads or possibly forums. Oh, and I looked on the S4 forum threads and couldn't see any pics.... but hopefully they're on their way. Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod5 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Another circular argument that is raising the temperature once more. We have done gauge wars to death on more than one occasion (I am sure I posted that the other day). We don't really want to have all of this arguing amongst people and to save Martin complaining about us locking this thread why can't we all just rub along nicely? What is that saying? If you haven't got anything nice to say then don't say anything! Oh and as for the call for photos well we have had some but did anyone notice the wheels look a bit far apart? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Jeez - even the Mods are infected. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Nice to hear Quai 87 (deservedly IMHO) won the York trophy. Can anyone enlighten me who won the other prizes? The only other I remember was the MRJ Chalice went to the bridgework on Shrewsbury. Others will probably be posted on the Scalefour website or forum in due course, I'll inform here if nobody else beats me to it. This has just appeared on the Scalefour forum: Chairman's Cup No entries for class 1 (locos) or class 2 (coaching stock) Class 3 Freight stock - Ray Nolton - for a Caladonian Railway horsebox Class 4 Sevice stock - Jonathan Buckie for his Plasser & Theurer 08-16/4x4 tamper Class 5 Buildings etc. - Matthew Farrell for a model of Liverpool Exchange No. 2 signal box The overall winner of the Chairman's Cup was Matthew Farrell There were no entries for the Deputy Chairman's Cup The Armchair Modellers Challenge was won by Stephen Duffrell for his two LSWR models - the Directors' Saloon and the Netley ambulance coach The MRJ Chalice was won by Ray Warner for the Severn bridge on his model of Shrewsbury Station. Ray also won the Eileeens Emporium award for scratchbuilding with his model of Shewsbury station, as yet incomplete, but a fine example of the art of scratchbuilding. Ray mentioned to me that in the period he is modelling, the overall roof did not have any glass fitted which must be a relief. And personal congratulations for Brian and Quai:87 - the York Trophy was very well deserved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Again, per Pete's comment. Any more pics would be great on here. This topic is about a particular show, which I think that many enjoyed; I did! So perhaps we can keep to the subject of "the show" and leave other matters for other subject threads or possibly forums. Oh, and I looked on the S4 forum threads and couldn't see any pics.... but hopefully they're on their way. Jon Hi Jon I'm sure work is going as fast as possible to produce the retrospective. This will be in the open area of the Society website as always, but no doubt there will also be an announcement on the forum as well. As on here we have no control over when or whether individuals will put up their own photos! (I would have done but I didn't take many this year, preferring to watch and natter instead!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I have the following simple thing to say This is p4 track - if you can tell the difference then you might want to consider finding out more about it - if you cant, or dont think it important anyway, then dont worry about it. Can we look at the layouts and trains now? Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flymo748 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 final call...any last pictures from the show? Many thanks to all those who posted the photos...including Paul's hint there may be some more. Still wish I could have made it to the show... And as I have ten minutes before I'm due to board my flight at Schiphol, here you go... Again, all courtesy of Nigel Chandler, Lyn Perkins and Tim Venton: Scalefour Society members and modellers Having Fun! Quai:87 with the constant crowd of admirers Brixcombe engine shed Trains on Dorchester Junction Buffalo at Brixcombe Quai:87 again, coming and going... Brixcombe, Green With Rivets That P4 horse and cart ;-) Heretic being shown the error of his ways on the "Getting Started in P4" demonstration desk... Note: no fingers were broken or removed during the course of the preceding picture! Oh, and there's always next year... Bigger, better (we hope) and as it's at Stoke Mandeville much more convenient for the _majority_ of the people north of the M25 :-) Cheers Paul Willis Scalefour Society Deputy Chairman, Inquisitor in Chief, Buddha's Belly and any other quasi-sky-fairy worshipping titles of note... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted October 4, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 4, 2012 Class 5 Buildings etc. - Matthew Farrell for a model of Liverpool Exchange No. 2 signal box The overall winner of the Chairman's Cup was Matthew Farrell The MRJ Chalice was won by Ray Warner for the Severn bridge on his model of Shrewsbury Station. Ray also won the Eileeens Emporium award for scratchbuilding with his model of Shewsbury station, as yet incomplete, but a fine example of the art of scratchbuilding. Ray mentioned to me that in the period he is modelling, the overall roof did not have any glass fitted which must be a relief. And personal congratulations for Brian and Quai:87 - the York Trophy was very well deserved. So, if I have interpreted correctly, the top awards went to models that didn't really involve track? In other words, conventional modelling standards that the average modeller would appreciate applied. I don't see much evidence of elitism, snobbery or dissing the OO community in those decisions. What have I not understood? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I hope someone took a picture of that lovely ferry boat in the showcase. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 And as I have ten minutes before I'm due to board my flight at Schiphol, here you go... Again, all courtesy of Nigel Chandler, Lyn Perkins and Tim Venton: Scalefour Society members and modellers Having Fun! Quai:87 with the constant crowd of admirers Brixcombe engine shed Trains on Dorchester Junction Buffalo at Brixcombe Quai:87 again, coming and going... Brixcombe, Green With Rivets That P4 horse and cart ;-) Heretic being shown the error of his ways on the "Getting Started in P4" demonstration desk... Note: no fingers were broken or removed during the course of the preceding picture! Oh, and there's always next year... Bigger, better (we hope) and as it's at Stoke Mandeville much more convenient for the _majority_ of the people north of the M25 :-) Cheers Paul Willis Scalefour Society Deputy Chairman, Inquisitor in Chief, Buddha's Belly and any other quasi-sky-fairy worshipping titles of note... Excellent photos Paul and thanks for posting them. 10/10 for the humour too; perhaps at next year's forum there should be a competition section for the most witty and original S4 modeller with a prize of track building rivets. Hope your trip goes smoothly... Cheers Simon PS - I like the prototype Deltic tee shirt someone was wearing! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Do you regard yourself as a pleb in this context? Why do you use such terminology? Was he made to push his bike through the extrance to Scaleforum? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Thanks Ivan, everytime I read one of Kentons posts, I'm going to have that image in my mind..........oh, the sheer horror ...with a dash of Bob Crow as well.... .....you make it sound like the Taliban..... Well they probably model in 22mm gauge, 'cos their nearest railway system (Pakistan) is 5ft 6in.... Those lads have it easy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon020 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I hope someone took a picture of that lovely ferry boat in the showcase. Try post 141... if that's what you meant. ferryboat indeed..... ....... "Nasty" patrol boat, please ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 whereas EM is a compromise between OO and P4. Nothing wrong in that, but for some like me, I'd rather have a real Rolex rather than a copy from the far east (I can't afford either by the way!). I wondered how long it would be before we started to run EM modellers down. P4 might be a fraction of a mm different from EM but where on a layout does anyone see them placed side by side. Most layouts contain only one of OO, OO-SF, EM or P4. Although most observers can see the difference between OO and P4/EM they cannot see the difference between EM and P4. I'm sure this discussion would disappear overnight if only Peco/Hornby produced P4 track and points (and the stock manufacturers followed suit) but they have resisted the temptation for all these years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon020 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Hi Jon I'm sure work is going as fast as possible to produce the retrospective. This will be in the open area of the Society website as always, but no doubt there will also be an announcement on the forum as well. As on here we have no control over when or whether individuals will put up their own photos! (I would have done but I didn't take any this year, preferring to watch and natter instead!) Hi Rod, what I'm ashamed of is the fact that I took so few pictures, and none of Quai87 which I spent quite a happy... er ... nearly an hour marvelling at. It truly is beautiful, a real work of art and a masterpiece in engineering. I hand't intend to imply a "come on chaps"... ; Paul does sound a little busy, I was just surprised at seeing so few photos on here given the amount of "snapping" that was going on. It was a superb event... and I hope that the new location lives up to expectations. However, I wouldn't expect Stoke Mandeville torepaint their hall into Scalefour blue as it seems that Leatherhead had done... how sporting of them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I wondered how long it would be before we started to run EM modellers down. P4 might be a fraction of a mm different from EM but where on a layout does anyone see them placed side by side. Most layouts contain only one of OO, OO-SF, EM or P4. Although most observers can see the difference between OO and P4/EM they cannot see the difference between EM and P4. I'm sure this discussion would disappear overnight if only Peco/Hornby produced P4 track and points (and the stock manufacturers followed suit) but they have resisted the temptation for all these years. You read what you want to read. My statement does not run EM modellers down, but your perversity does run down P4 modellers and their chosen scale. Face it; you can't stand them! Jealousy perhaps? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kits from Somerset Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 It is a great shame I didn't have a chance to see most of the show and take some photos as well, so all been well when all in one room next year it will be better. Also there will be no need for me to go on the M25 at all. How many shows will they take photos of rolling stock on one of the layouts, for one of the trade stands which they did for me as I had all ready contacted the layout owners before the show to do this my self. I am looking forward to the 2013 show and I hope it goes well at the new venue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted October 4, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 4, 2012 It is a bit of a shame that anybody reading this thread will see a lot of posts from people bickering over this and that and not so much about the show and the modelling. I am not at all sure that it shows the hobby in general in a very good light. There have always been those who "get" P4 and those who don't. Nothing has been said on here that hasn't been said many times over the last 30 odd years or so. There have always been a small minority of P4 modellers who regard their way as the only true way to model in 4mm scale and likewise there have always been those who seem to object to people who are trying to improve the standards in the hobby. Both are equally wrong and I hope that they eventually learn to live and let live but I am not sure that they will. Thanks for those who have posted photos of the show. It crossed my mind that the vast majority of the photos seem to show either individual models of locos/items of rolling stock, with a couple of shots of what appear to be rather short trains (the longest I have seen is a loco and three vehicles). I know that there are some large P4 layouts around because I have seen them but were there any at Scaleforum that have avoided the cameras so far? Shrewsbury can't be exactly small! If so I would love to see some photos of them as I enjoy seeing larger layouts. I never got to Leatherhead as it is too far for a day out and I couldn't justify the cost of an overnight stay. Next year, Aylesbury is a realistic prospect for a day trip so I won't need to rely on other folk's photos. I always get to Scalefour North and I have found the vast majority of P4 modellers to be highly reasonable, highly skilled and very friendly people. There are some I hope I can call my friends. The proportion of decent folk modelling P4 in my experience is at least as high as those who model in other scales although every division of our hobby has one or two bad apples and I have had the odd unfortunate dealings with modellers in P4 as well as with other scales/gauges. It is a shame that some of that sort of behaviour spills over into a public forum from time to time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Without trying to continue the argument, EM was the best possible compromise with the equipment and components available at the time it was invented. It gave the correct width at the outside of overscale wheels. EEM/P4/S4 with almost exact scale width wheels overcame the limitation. As I said earlier, I went EM 40 years ago, as the only P4 products available were from Studiolith, and there wasn't a huge choice. Being only 16, and having a couple of long-standing EM modellers in my local club had an influence too. My broad gauge models are to S4 standards, and if I were starting now in "narrow gauge" I would use S4 for that. Or maybe I would use 00 to get something running faster. The advantage of EM nowadays is that fine scale 00 wheels on longer axles can be used, and to me the advantage is I have lots of EM stock. So each gauge has its advantages to different people, and I don't see anyone running down or preaching about any of them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I wondered how long it would be before we started to run EM modellers down. P4 might be a fraction of a mm different from EM but where on a layout does anyone see them placed side by side. Most layouts contain only one of OO, OO-SF, EM or P4. Although most observers can see the difference between OO and P4/EM they cannot see the difference between EM and P4. Telling the difference between 2 rails 16.5 and 18mm apart isnt all that easy - however telling the difference between a flangeway gap that is wider than the rail head and one that is narrower is very very easy indeed. I am afraid Kenton you appear to be going out of your way to prove that you dont have the slightest clue about what you are talking about. I dont see any running down of EM moddellers in Oldluggers post at all. EM modellers know that their chosen gauge isnt as accurate as P4 (which isnt as accurate as S4) but its more accurate than 00. Thats their choice to make and they certainly dont need you to tell them of the differences. And yet you continue your spitefull vendetta against P4 modellers while sayings its us thats intollerant! I dunno what your agenda is (its lost amongst all of your random changes of direction) but you have been trying to start a war of words for nearly a week and quite frankly failed miserably at it. Does RMweb really need this kind of trolling? Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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