RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted October 3, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 3, 2012 Why is there this seeming continual need for some to demean what others are trying to achieve? I have never understood it, or why when there are other similar scale/gauge combinations it is those of P4 that seem to attract all the naysayers. It's because 4mm scale is the same scale as children's toy trains. That makes some folks uncomfortable and eager to distance themselves from such things. Others who don't feel that way see that and react to it as disparaging of their own hobby, where in most cases none is intended. It doesn't happen in say 0 gauge and S7 because nowadays there are no proper 0 gauge toy trains. There are still some strong technical arguments about wheel profiles, radii, and such things, but it doesn't get personal. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
43179 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Lets try and post some pictures for those that have been asking: I was kept so busy on the demo stand I hardly had time to look around the show myself (or even talk to Justin who was demoing right next to me!), let alone take many photos - It was great showing a work in progress as I got asked about everything from ballasting to Digital sound - and there were lots of people asking about converting stock - so it seems the show attracted a fair number of people interested in going 'P4' - which is good piccys of my stuff on the D&Edisplay tfn Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted October 3, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 3, 2012 It's because 4mm scale is the same scale as children's toy trains. That makes some folks uncomfortable and eager to distance themselves from such things. Others who don't feel that way see that and react to it as disparaging of their own hobby, where in most cases none is intended. Martin, can you now please sort out Israel, Catholics & Protestants for starters. That has hit the nail so squarely on the head I am gobsmaked. Post of the week IMHO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 the boring petty bickering that seems to break out on here on an almost hourly basis. I can arrange an export if you wish or maybe we should look at setting up a transfer window system? It'll be like playing Top Trolls. BTW I'm happy for anyone to link to content on the Scalefour site; no axes to grind here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 It's because 4mm scale is the same scale as children's toy trains. Martin! You of all people should know that it is not about scale it is all about the religion of gauge. A case of my toy train runs on better track than your toy train. For me it really seems to be some kind of religion, the finer holier than thou standards must be achieved to be considered included. The trouble is a heretic will always be seen on the outside. Don't they realise how insulting it is to be classed by them as someone content and very happy with OO gauge in 4mm? It seems not, because if you model in the standard track accepted by the vast majority of the manufacturers* you just don't get it. Sure P4 models are a friendly group - among themselves and to other potential believers. But question their superiority and you are consigned to be cast out as a childish follower of toy trains. * Is there something wrong with Peco and Hornby continuing to produce track for the plebs in OO gauge and not EM or P4. Or Bachmann, Hornby, Hejan and Dapol producing RTR locomotives and stock for OO and not EM or P4. No issues at all with those who wish to be different and I even admire their dedication to make all the changes required to make changes to stock to run on their flavour of track gauge. But stop trying to convert others to the religion by belittling what they see as good enough for them. Just simply put out a welcoming hand if they wish to join in. There is nothing wrong with OO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Izzy Posted October 3, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 3, 2012 Hi Izzy Perhaps you can find an example where a p4 modeller puts down another person for what they choose to model, just one would do. You have every right to say and think what you want but i with that comes the responsibility to quantify it. I must say though as a p4 modeller i feel i come under almost weekly attack for MY choice in scale/gauge choices but that is life indeed. Jim In actual fact I was referring to the exact opposite. Those who put down those attempting P4 standards. Perhaps I did not make myself clear enough. Your reply however, says everything. Izzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 There is nothing wrong with OO. Apart from it being a scale 4'1½" gauge when the prototype is 4'8½". A 7 inch inaccuracy in any other dimension of an 00 model would get lots of people jumping up and down with anger! But it's no reason for all this "enthusiastic discussion". It's supposed to be an enjoyable hobby. Until a large selection of S4 RTR is available, it's inevitable that most people will stick with what's available, and only a minority will make the effort, and spend the money, to change wheels. It doesn't make the ones who do superior, or the ones who don't inferior. If I was starting now, I may well use 00, just to get things done, but as I have more than enough EM stock, my easiest route is EM. I started in EM when the only fine scale alternative was Studiolith P4 products, and I thought it was too much for a 16 year old, and 00 RTR had steamroller wheels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted October 3, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 3, 2012 There is nothing wrong with OO. Yes there is. That should be 00 (zeroes). The traditional model railway gauge designations are numeric. It's one thing to argue about the correct distance between the rails, but an absolute tragedy to lose the hobby's fine heritage. Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R A Watson Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Well this evening has see the circle finally squared, two sides proposing the same answer from opposite sides of the argument! Perhaps we can now agree to disagree and return to just admiring each others work irrespective of scale and gauge? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 .....the sexual cross dressing antics of GWR ticket collectors after 1945 ..... ......How long before someone wants photos of this posting? Is there a Weblink to this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metropolitan Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Seems to me that some 00 gauge modellers might be clinically suffering from a severe inferiority complex (myself included!!)!? However in just one respect I can justify a swollen head: Outside valvegear holds no fear for me!!!! But there's nowt so rare as a set of Walschearts at a P4 show!! Planning a P4 layout ? First Rule:- Make absolutely certain that no Walschearts loco's are required Hence the preponderance of GWR and Diesel layouts at Scaleforum!!! What a boring old hobby it would be if everyone stuck to one scale. Of interest to Horsestan would be that as I type I have in front of me an exquisite LMS P4 Horse and Cart. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 But John, you can build it in less time than it takes the rest of us to spell it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 ...Planning a P4 layout ? First Rule:- Make absolutely certain that no Walschaerts locos are required Hence the preponderance of GWR and Diesel layouts at Scaleforum!!! .... Why have Walschaerts when you can have working inside Stephenson's motion? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 * Is there something wrong with Peco and Hornby continuing to produce track for the plebs in OO gauge and not EM or P4. Or Bachmann, Hornby, Hejan and Dapol producing RTR locomotives and stock for OO and not EM or P4. Because the 'plebs' could not simply slap down RTR track in P4 (maybe EM???) and expect it to work straight off! Why can't the manufacturers simply produce rolling stock in the world-wide scale of H0 - then the track would be right!!! (I AM joking!!!) There is nothing wrong with OO. Except that it is the wrong scale track for the rolling stock!!!! More seriously, as a long term H0 modeller, for years I have tried to reconcile using my US/Euro trains on the same tracks as my British ones (for space reasons, if nothing else!) and I simply cannot do it! Therefore, I now model US & European in H0, British outline in P4/4mm (call it what you like, my UK model tracks are 4'8 1/2" apart - same as my foreign stuff!). And, guess what? I deeply enjoy both scales, just not at the same time! Cheers, John E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Is there a Weblink to this? There's a new area of the forum dedicated to this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Is there a Weblink to this? Yes certainly; here it is:- www.gwrsex.net Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Seems to me that some 00 gauge modellers might be clinically suffering from a severe inferiority complex (myself included!!)!? However in just one respect I can justify a swollen head: Outside valvegear holds no fear for me!!!! But there's nowt so rare as a set of Walschearts at a P4 show!! Planning a P4 layout ? First Rule:- Make absolutely certain that no Walschearts loco's are required Hence the preponderance of GWR and Diesel layouts at Scaleforum!!! What a boring old hobby it would be if everyone stuck to one scale. Of interest to Horsestan would be that as I type I have in front of me an exquisite LMS P4 Horse and Cart. Either you haven't been to many exhibitions where P4 layouts/models were present or were walking around wearing sunglasses. Cheers Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Because the 'plebs' could not simply slap down RTR track in P4 (maybe EM???) and expect it to work straight off! As far as I can remeber the only 00/P4 wheelset I've ever changed was taking out the P4 and putting a 00 set in its place or secondhand stock. I would have to observe that the only P4 track I have ever laid was laid with double sided stiky tape, AFTER the layout had arrived in the exhibition hall, and the exhibition in question was Scalefourum ! I've also regularly demo'ed at Scalefourum over the last 10 years, and I've never felt that my being a diehard 00 modeler was a problem - but then I'm not demonstrating track building, or anything related to gauge (or even scale). Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I'm probably going to regret this, because Kenton probably had his Mr Awkward costume on again: Martin! You of all people should know that it is not about scale it is all about the religion of gauge. A case of my toy train runs on better track than your toy train. For me it really seems to be some kind of religion, the finer holier than thou standards must be achieved to be considered included. The trouble is a heretic will always be seen on the outside. Whenever this topic comes up, you frequently/always (life's too short to check) resort to this language while making these sweeping generalisations - 'religion', 'holier than thou', 'heretic' etc. Who exactly are the people who make you think like this? Sure, there was an element of it in the 70s, and one or two are still around, but you make it sound like the Taliban. You must have had some scary experience to make you continue to spout forth like this at every opportunity. I honestly don't recognise the world you describe here. Don't they realise how insulting it is to be classed by them as someone content and very happy with OO gauge in 4mm? It seems not, because if you model in the standard track accepted by the vast majority of the manufacturers* you just don't get it. There are those who are happy to model in P4 because the wheel and track standards are an important factor in their enjoyment. There are those (the vast majority) who model in 00 for many reasons including the lesser significance to them of the track gauge as a factor in their enjoyment. I'm not aware of any belittling of 00 modellers by P4 modellers because of this (please point to an example) so where does 'insulting' fit in exactly? Sure P4 models are a friendly group - among themselves and to other potential believers. But question their superiority and you are consigned to be cast out as a childish follower of toy trains. Here we go again with the religious analogy ('potential believers', 'cast out'). Again, apart from some examples in the early days, the second sentence above is just perpetuation of a myth in my (and I suspect in your) actual experience. * Is there something wrong with Peco and Hornby continuing to produce track for the plebs in OO gauge and not EM or P4. Or Bachmann, Hornby, Hejan and Dapol producing RTR locomotives and stock for OO and not EM or P4. Of course not, it's commercial reality. Do you regard yourself as a pleb in this context? Why do you use such terminology? No issues at all with those who wish to be different and I even admire their dedication to make all the changes required to make changes to stock to run on their flavour of track gauge. But stop trying to convert others to the religion by belittling what they see as good enough for them. Just simply put out a welcoming hand if they wish to join in. First sentence no problem, I also admire those with any skills greater than mine (which is a lot of modellers) in any scale/gauge combination. Second sentence - I don't really have to say it now do I? Third sentence, that is what happens - show what it is, if people want to know more and possibly join that's great, but everyone can choose how they get their enjoyment from this hobby. There is nothing wrong with OO. Apart from gauge and wheel profile accuracy (if that is important to you) no there isn't. I model in P4, I also model in 00, and get pleasure from both. It just seems though that all the waves being made by what is a very small minority whenever P4 and 00 are mentioned together comes from the 00 side - given the majority position overall of 00 in sales and usage, I just wonder why that is? There - no doubt one or two will just add the above to their memory store of their perception of elitism and arrogance from the P4 community, I can't do anything about that I'm afraid, in 2012 I just find it rather sad and unnecessary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjnewitt Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I can arrange an export if you wish or maybe we should look at setting up a transfer window system? It'll be like playing Top Trolls. BTW I'm happy for anyone to link to content on the Scalefour site; no axes to grind here. A transfer system could be interesting. Of course it would work in the opposite way football transfers work in that you'd have to pay to transfer someone from your forum elsewhere. Perhaps the profits could be put to good use and be donated to the Bewildered Railway Modellers Association? Wonder who that Top Trolls card is for? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc smith Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 As far as I can remeber the only 00/P4 wheelset I've ever changed was taking out the P4 and putting a 00 set in its place... ...I've also regularly demo'ed at Scalefourum over the last 10 years, and I've never felt that my being a diehard 00 modeler was a problem - but then I'm not demonstrating track building, or anything related to gauge (or even scale). Jon I'm sure some modellers have problems with others, whatever scale / gauge is in question... The old 4mm "gauge wars" can, unfortunately rage on in the minds of some people but life's just too short as it is There simply aren't enough hours in the day for me to do half the modelling I'd like.... I've always found the scaleforum folks a friendly bunch I'm sure there are 1 or 2 exceptions, ... but then, there are in all walks of life Now, where's that Damn pot of paint? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metropolitan Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Either you haven't been to many exhibitions where P4 layouts/models were present or were walking around wearing sunglasses. Cheers Simon No, you are quite right. I've never been to a P4 show. Ever. Out of interest why would sunglasses stop me seeing a set of valve gear? Is it especially dark at a P4 show?? Or could it be that you can't take a joke? Here's how I see it using a video game as an analogy: I play in normal mode. Those who P4 play on hard or even insane difficulty. And I am glad that they do in order for all of us to enjoy their endeavors. Because enjoy them I do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Here is a possible placebo for the hard core OO supporter amongst us. Why not build a very simple P4 diorama with a piece of RTR track, and maybe build a point (the same procedure as in OO but with much finer check rail and crossing clearances). Do a simple wheel conversion to one of your excess OO diesels using an Ultrascale conversion pack, paint and weather the aforementioned nicely and ballast the track. Now see what you think; like me the first time I was amazed by the look of the finer wheels, check rails, etc, and by how easy all of this was to achieve. You'll then see that it is not snobbery but a challenge to replicate the real thing as closely as possible, with the satisfaction knowing that you did it! If you get the P4 bug (which I think you would having done this) this little test piece could happily coexist with your OO layout and locos. As time goes by, add a little more to the P4 demon! Cheers Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold bcnPete Posted October 4, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 4, 2012 Any more pics from the show? TIA so.......any more pics from the show? final call...any last pictures from the show? Many thanks to all those who posted the photos...including Paul's hint there may be some more. Still wish I could have made it to the show... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I'll respond to only 3 points, as everyone - even me - seems to be tiring of this polarisation of attack and defense from both sides of the track. Whenever this topic comes up, you frequently/always (life's too short to check) resort to this language while making these sweeping generalisations I was not the first in this topic to raise that reference to "train set" There are those who are happy to model in P4 because the wheel and track standards are an important factor in their enjoyment. and clearly I have no problem with that - only do they have to tell me that is something I should do (or is wrong to model in OO)? There has been examples above, since my last post, of preaching the word that P4 is correct and OO is wrong. Do you regard yourself as a pleb in this context? Why do you use such terminology? I have no problem with being called a pleb, never have had. In fact I am proud to be a commoner and not some patrician elitist. But that is in its original meaning before modern day "culture" / press took it upon themselves to corrupt the meaning. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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