Is there a surprising lack of RTR GWR Coaches?

[Adrian Wintle]

I presume that the existing venerable Hornby Collett coaches, suburbans, autocoach and clerestories are already 'design clever', so I'm not sure what the payoff for tooling up replacements for them would be.

Since they are all existing tooling (some not even Hornby tooling), i don't see how you could consider them to be 'design clever' as there is no design involved. 'Market clever' to get people to still buy them, maybe.

 

The payoff would be a range of GWR coaches to match the ranges already produced for the other members of the big 4 and for BR. The new-tool replacements for the LNER, LMS, and SR coaches were replacements for the existing ranges that date from the same time as the Colletts, so it isn't a stretch to see a replacement for them as well. It would give them a range of coaches that can carry liveries from the 1920s to the 1960s, thus matching all the new and existing (new-spec) Hornby steam locos. As there was little variation over the life of the coaches, and a limited number of diagrams, it makes much more sense than tooling up coaches that aren't correct in detail for the majority of the liveries they would be marketed in.

 

Adrian

[Dazzler Fan]

As City of Bath has the old number (3433) and is therefore pre 1912, your only real RTR option is the Hornby Clerestories. See if you can get some of the newer ones (much better decoration) split from the London 1908, Flying Dutchman, or GWR anniversary sets.

 

Adrian

 

I don't think it has to be Clerstory, the Collet Coaches were available in 1922

and would look o'k with the  City Class up to May 1931..

[buffalo]

I don't think it has to be Clerstory, the Collet Coaches were available in 1922

and would look o'k with the  City Class up to May 1931..

Only Bristol and Truro lasted until 1931 (May and March respectively). The rest had been withdrawn from August 1928 onwards.

 

Nick.

[Neal Ball]

As some of the contributers to that thread pointed out, that poll didn't include any of the Collett corridor stock (except the special cases of the 1935 excursion stock and the Centenaries) as voting options, so the results are quite difficult to take seriously. It is also hard to take it seriously when the granularity of the options varies between 'Toplight corridor stock' and 'B Set composite Diagram E129'.

 

Adrian

In which case it was a shame that you took three weeks to make suggestions. In the first few days, a fair few different carriages were added in. However be that as it may, the final word should go to the Mremag / RMweb wishlist Poll 2012 which was published on here last April, where you see Toplight carriages are clearly the winner.

[richbrummitt]

In which case it was a shame that you took three weeks to make suggestions. In the first few days, a fair few different carriages were added in. However be that as it may, the final word should go to the Mremag / RMweb wishlist Poll 2012 which was published on here last April, where you see Toplight carriages are clearly the winner.

 

The result is somewhat meaningless for reasons mentioned by other contributors. If the votes had been split into just two categoroies, for different lengths, then the 183 votes would be divided between multiple categories like the wood panelled autocoach votes (192 in total). If they were split further into panelled and steel sided and the different lengths and other details, like the Collet coaches, the votes would perhaps be spread much more thinly. Collet coaches amassed nearly 600 votes, more if you included the B set.

 

If I was choosing what GWR coach to tool based on that information alone it would be a Collet design, possibly an H38 or maybe the E147. I'm sure many of you would come to a similar conclusion.

[Coach bogie]

 Toplight carriages are clearly the winner.

 

I do not think anyone is disputing toplights are high on the wish list and indeed the winner. The comments reflect the major manufacturing difficulties on producing a coach that is attractive to manufacturers and profitable.

 

Heres just one commercial challenge. Potential purchasers will no doubt require diners to match. Take the H16 ( the other toplight diners are all 70ft). As built had a different bogie at each end. Rebuilt twice eventually with new windows and much reduced panelling. By BR days it had mk1 style windows and was virtually steel sided on yet another style of bogies. Hornby/whoever, to cover all periods over a 50yr + period, requires three body toolings, at least three bogies to cover six different liveries.... and still make a profit.

 

I would love to see rtr toplights so I do not have to make my own. At £80-£100 for a kit these days, then the time, I would much rather open the box. But, I am also aware of the technical v financial return considerations in production, from my marketing days. Product development costs have reduced considerably and the break even point is often much lower down the chart compared to 10 years ago. For any manufacturer, especially one with shareholders,  given the choice of one tooling that can be issued in various guises (we took one board game tooling and issued it with as many different licenced TV characters as possible) OR several toolings with lower sales projections for each, it is not difficult to see which one is more attractive to management.

 

The 1925 stock suggestion is based on current lean period and the requirement to maximise profits through lower production costs. Time will tell.

 

Happy New Year to everyone.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Siberian Snooper]

I believe that laser technology is used in the production of loco's these days, cannot this technology be used to scan any of the preserved toplight coaches,or any any of the other types of coaching stock for that matter. As I'm trying to model the mid '20s period, I'd be hopeful that a start would be made on the earlier coaches first.

 

I for one wouldn't expect a full range of diagrams to be available from day one but one or two a year for a few years would certainly be acceptable. It would for a start save on emptying the wallet all in one go.

 

Cheers SS

 

PS. Happy New Year

[BG John]

I seem to remember that Triang coaches used to have separate sides. I'm pretty sure the ones that came with my trainset (B12 and I think Mk1 coaches) did. I assume the chassis with, I think, the ends attached, was standard for a number of products. Couldn't the same idea be used, with maybe a simplified chassis/bogies that could be upgraded by anyone who cared enough? Maybe just a couple available complete with the sides that would be most popular RTR, but with a range of extra sides available from the manufacturer. They would probably sell far more of the RTR coaches, if there was a wide range of sides, in different conditions and liveries, with special editions as well.

 

The sides would also sell to scratchbuilders and probably to go on the correct chassis from small manufacturers, and even more RTR coaches would sell to take the sides produced by small suppliers. So the big and smaller manufacturers would benefit.

[buffalo]

I believe that laser technology is used in the production of loco's these days, cannot this technology be used to scan any of the preserved toplight coaches,or any any of the other types of coaching stock for that matter. As I'm trying to model the mid '20s period, I'd be hopeful that a start would be made on the earlier coaches first...

One of those points that needs repetition for those who don't know about the technology or haven't worked with laser scanners is that they are not a silver bullet. Laser scanning is just the first stage of a long and highly skilled process. It's liable to be used more and more as model design teams adapt and develop their workflow to suit it. However, there's little about most coaches that would suggest any great benefit unless you are already committed to such a workflow. Unlike locomotives, they are on the whole rather more simple to measure by traditional techniques and drawing up CAD models is fairly straightforward.

 

Then, of course, there's the problem already discussed above that most toplights have changed somewhat over the years. Whilst laser scanning might produce an excellent surface model of current condition, there would be an awful lot of work needed to backdate the CAD to early condition.

 

Nick

 

ps Happy New Year to you, too!

[The Stationmaster]

I'm not sure without delving back when it will happen (April I think) but is there anyway a consensus could be reached to narrow down the field before the 2013 wishlist opens?  Or have things gone as far as they can in that direction already and left the manufacturers (and possibly the commissioners too?) with too diverse a target to hit and a market that is too widely split to encourage taking a chance and making the investment?

 

Basically most makers will be looking for vehicles which are likely to offer the longest potential operational timespan with the minimum number of significant/noticeable alterations, especially bodywork alterations.  And I don't think that the Toplights would meet that criteria.  Equally the operational timespan has, I think,  to include the BR era (well I would say that wouldn't I) as it it seems to be a good era for sales potential.  And equally vehicles which are attractive/feasible as 'through coaches' for non GWR/WR modellers would probably have a greater sales potential if they are to a good quality level.

 

Fiinally it might well be worth arriving at a view -even 'internally' (to RMweb) of how we see that quality/detail etc level.  And having dropped that brick into teh pond I shall sit peacefully on the bank and see if the ripples spread.

[Chris Higgs]

I believe that laser technology is used in the production of loco's these days, cannot this technology be used to scan any of the preserved toplight coaches,or any any of the other types of coaching stock for that matter. As I'm trying to model the mid '20s period, I'd be hopeful that a start would be made on the earlier coaches first.

 

 

There are not a lot of Toplights left. Most have rotted away.

 

Chris

[Chris Higgs]

Basically most makers will be looking for vehicles which are likely to offer the longest potential operational timespan with the minimum number of significant/noticeable alterations, especially bodywork alterations.  And I don't think that the Toplights would meet that criteria.  Equally the operational timespan has, I think,  to include the BR era (well I would say that wouldn't I) as it it seems to be a good era for sales potential.  And equally vehicles which are attractive/feasible as 'through coaches' for non GWR/WR modellers would probably have a greater sales potential if they are to a good quality level.

 

Plenty of Toplights lasted well into the BR period, certainly to the late 50s. 70' coaches were very popular with the operating department for capacity reasons, and only a few of these were built in the Collett era. The end came very quickly for the ex-GWR coaches in the early 60s - they were far less safe in a crash than BR Mk1s, so a lot of coaches built 20 years after the Toplights lasted only a couple of years longer before withdrawal. You are right the bodywork changes with plating over, especially on the panelled Toplights, but Hornby seem well geared up now to cope with moulds with optional slides to deal with that. Indeed they could see it as a opportunity for extra sales in the collectors market.

 

My personal choice would be the Collett 57 footers, built in large numbers with far less variations in design than found for example in the Sunshine stock of the 1930s. And plenty of photos of them in BR maroon. It also fits Hornby's philosophy of recycling their old models as new tooling. Come on Hornby, you know it makes sense.  

[gwrrob]

There are not a lot of Toplights left. Most have rotted away.

 

Chris

 Better get scanning this beauty then.Yes please.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/svr_enthusiast/7096988899/

[Chris Higgs]

 Better get scanning this beauty then.Yes please.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/svr_enthusiast/7096988899/

 

Yes indeed, and to illustrate the point about longevity the last of this 1915 diagram was condemned in 1962, the same year that the C54 stock built in 1925 also became extinct. By the end of 1963 the vast majority of thirds built pre-1939 had also gone.

 

However scanning any preserved coach is taking a risk. It may well have a host of differences added during restoration. 

 

Chris

[gwrrob]

Yes indeed, and to illustrate the point about longevity the last of this 1915 diagram was condemned in 1962, the same year that the C54 stock built in 1925 also became extinct. By the end of 1963 the vast majority of thirds built pre-1939 had also gone.

 

However scanning any preserved coach is taking a risk. It may well have a host of differences added during restoration. 

 

Chris

 

Details here on its preservation history.  http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=191

[buffalo]

 Better get scanning this beauty then...

 

...However scanning any preserved coach is taking a risk...

Given the surviving Swindon drawings and photos for C32, several of which may be found, with others, in Russell's Appendix, vol 1, would someone like to enlighten us on what might be achieved by scanning it. A simple check of the main dimensions with a tape measure together with measurements of minor details would take significantly less time than scanning followed by processing of multiple point clouds into a single polygon mesh and all the subsequent work to derive a CAD model of something that is mostly straight lines. As I said above, scanning is not a silver bullet and there are times when traditional methods are much easier.

 

Nick

[Coach bogie]

 Given the surviving Swindon drawings and photos for C32, several of which may be found, with others, in Russell's Appendix, vol 1, would someone like to enlighten us on what might be achieved by scanning it. A simple check of the main dimensions with a tape measure together with measurements of minor details would take significantly less time than scanning followed by processing of multiple point clouds into a single polygon mesh and all the subsequent work to derive a CAD model of something that is mostly straight lines. As I said above, scanning is not a silver bullet and there are times when traditional methods are much easier.

 

Nick

All the measurements, conversion to CAD workable 4mm drawings etc has already been completed by David Geen kits (as have all the steel sided toplights). If any serious development was to take place, it would make sense to open discussion with David rather than repeating the exercise.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Budgie]

With all this talk of mainline stock, and a few mentions of B-sets for non-gangwayed coaches, it looks like I am going to have to hone my soldering skills. I want a few 5-coach Cardiff valleys sets (that's BT-T-C-T-BT) for my 56xxs to pull, and Comet make etched kits of them. Of course, it would be nice if Hornby or Bachmann made them RTR, but the way everyone is talking they are likely to be way down the priority list.

[rovex]

I hear a lot of talk about the changes to toplight stock over the years and that this would put Hornby off making them. I honestly can't see that this would bother Hornby. A company that can paint Hawksworth coaches in GWR livery (which most of them never carried), wouldn't have too many qualms about making one version of a toplight and simply changing the livery as appropriate whether or not panels had been plated over or toplights panelled over etc.

[Chris Higgs]

 Given the surviving Swindon drawings and photos for C32, several of which may be found, with others, in Russell's Appendix, vol 1, would someone like to enlighten us on what might be achieved by scanning it.

 

Given the pig's ear Hornby made of the shape of Gresley corridor stock, despite presumably being in possession of all the drawings, perhaps more than you might think. Never underestimate the ability of so-called experts to cock things up.

 

Chris

[buffalo]

Given the pig's ear Hornby made of the shape of Gresley corridor stock, despite presumably being in possession of all the drawings, perhaps more than you might think. Never underestimate the ability of so-called experts to cock things up.

 

Chris

I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with that selective quotation, Chris. My next sentence mentioned using conventional measurement techniques. From experience (though not with anything to do with railways) I can assure you that it is possible to cock things up whichever method you use. The process of going from point clouds to CAD model offers as many, if not more, chances to do so than any other. Witness how long it took to get the the shape of the Dapol Western correct.

 

Nick

[Adrian Wintle]

 

I hear a lot of talk about the changes to toplight stock over the years and that this would put Hornby off making them. I honestly can't see that this would bother Hornby. A company that can paint Hawksworth coaches in GWR livery (which most of them never carried), wouldn't have too many qualms about making one version of a toplight and simply changing the livery as appropriate whether or not panels had been plated over or toplights panelled over etc.

 

It isn't only that they changed over their lifetime, it is also that the term 'Toplight coaches' covers 15 years of builds during a period of change. It is not that much shorter than the period covered by 'Collett coaches'. Would you ask for 'Collett coaches' without specifying which type? Apparently a lot of people have no problem doing that for toplights...

 

The preserved coach linked to above is a case in point - that is a metal-skinned coach with a truss underframe. The Slaters kits are panelled coaches with turnbuckle underframes. They are both toplights but, aside from the length and the general profile, they are very different beasts. To make life more difficult, the metal-skinned coaches were built with tunbuckle or truss underframes depending on which lot they were built in.

 

Adrian

[Siberian Snooper]

Details here on its preservation history.  http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=191

And very nice to, I wish I could do the same sort of paint job in 4mm

 

SS

[Dazzler Fan]

Only Bristol and Truro lasted until 1931 (May and March respectively). The rest had been withdrawn from August 1928 onwards.

 

Nick.

I was quoting the outside dates - obviously from the same source as you.

[Dazzler Fan]

All the measurements, conversion to CAD workable 4mm drawings etc has already been completed by David Geen kits (as have all the steel sided toplights). If any serious development was to take place, it would make sense to open discussion with David rather than repeating the exercise.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

 

With current 3D printing facilities, are these available in 3D CAD?