Bachmann announce Mk2f's

[LaGrange]

Email from Hattons

 

"Bachmann have confirmed that the Recommended Retail price for this item is £49.95, resulting in an new sales price of £42.46. This is due to the the terms of supply to all retailers by Bachmann therefore we will unable to provide this item at our estimated price however we can confirm that the new sales price is the lowest this item can be sold to you by any retailer."

 

I can see it being the case now that retailers wont be as quick to accept pre-orders

[DaveClass47]

Brexit vote has taken 20% to 30% of the value of British pound. It strength versus the dollar is been weaken Bachmann buy plastic metal etc. In dollars not pounds. Secondly china labour cost i.e wages has in the past four years increase far higher than uk

Third if you want all extra details the labour cost becomes more of a issue as before credit crunch if extra detail added £2 of cost Bachmann could shoulder it for reduce margin now today that cost can not be shoulder as financial positions have changed.  

Fourth there are less container ships in the sea increasing shipping cost and causing delays. These massive ships need to be roughly 70%+ full to cover the cost that is a rough guess it can be a lot higher.

 

The effect of the spending cuts by Osborne, Britexit physically in force and President trump are yet to ripple to the bank note in your wallet and the prices for food and hobbies and other items will be in flux until things settle

 

With regards to labour cost in china

manufacturing wages currently are £6554.71 per year in china  UK=£30524 per year a difference of £23969.29 in other words UK is four times more expensive in terms of manufacturing wages.

 

Oil prices have been and continue to be highly volatile which effects shipping cost, cost of plastic, strength of economies world wide and inflation.

Yeah I see your points, I am aware of all of these pending factors.   But can Bachmann not take these 'new' factors into consideration (as they are not yet committed to the final spec of these coaches) and lessen the level of detail, and additional separately fitted parts to these coaches to make them more affordable?   I ain't talking about a Hornby "design clever" strategy (oh god forbid lol), but something in the middle.   I would pay up to £45-£50 for a special rolling stock item.   But brexit or no brexit...I cant see £75 as affordable to mere mortals. 

[brushman47544]

The issue of pricing is an emotive one and Bachmann's approach to announcing new models at a very early stage in the development process has only compounded the problem of prices being seen to rise each year until the model concerned is actually released. The long delays with newly tooled models in recent years has simply exacerbated it.

 

Hornby on the other hand, by taking a different approach and announcing models that they expect to release during the validity of the current catalogue can announce a price and you will know that, in almost all cases, this will be the price on release. So you can pre-order with confidence and save up if necessary.

 

In this respect, I do think Bachmann has been sensible in not announcing a price at all for new models until they are nearer to release. What would be nice, however, is if they could time it so they can stick to that price when the model is finally released. Waiting to provide a price, but then not sticking to it, is not really fair game. Why not wait a bit longer so they can effectively lock in the price?

[jonathan452]

Also noticed that another thread is running on this topic so perhaps Mods could close one?

I did mention that one myself on the other thread (Post 7).

 

Here's hoping.

Edited January 9, 2017 by jonathan452

[LaGrange]

Yeah I see your points, I am aware of all of these pending factors.   But can Bachmann not take these 'new' factors into consideration (as they are not yet committed to the final spec of these coaches) and lessen the level of detail, and additional separately fitted parts to these coaches to make them more affordable?   I ain't talking about a Hornby "design clever" strategy (oh god forbid lol), but something in the middle.   I would pay up to £45-£50 for a special rolling stock item.   But brexit or no brexit...I cant see £75 as affordable to mere mortals. 

 

You must have voted 'Yes' for Brexit with that outlook. Its becoming the biggest example of hindsight. You cant have everything. If the detail was less you would complain, if its too expensive you complain, if its too cheap you would complain as a shortcut has been made somewhere

 

Bachmann have clearly been monitoring the sales of a commissioned set here - where the coaches work out at over £70 each, and they are selling well

[Tony M]

Just got my email from Hattons.

 

I have (now had) 12 MK2F's on pre-order at £25.46 each (Total 305.52)

Now I've been told that they are £42.46 (Total 509.52) that's a 66.77% increase (Plus conversion to Euro & P&P)

 

I was looking forward to these but 66.77% increase is taking the p&%$...

 

Order cancelled

[Paul.Uni]

In this respect, I do think Bachmann has been sensible in not announcing a price at all for new models until they are nearer to release. What would be nice, however, is if they could time it so they can stick to that price when the model is finally released. Waiting to provide a price, but then not sticking to it, is not really fair game. Why not wait a bit longer so they can effectively lock in the price?

The MK2Fs have had a RRP of TBA for at least the past two years. As we've seen previously with the Brighton Atlantic, the LMS Inspection Saloon, the Hawksworth Autocoach and the SE&CR Birdcages to name a few, people order at the Hattons made up price before a RRP is announced. They then complain when a RRP is announced and they get a email stating that the model can not be supplied at the Hattons made up price.

[tractor_37260]

Just got my email from Hattons.

 

I have (now had) 12 MK2F's on pre-order at £25.46 each (Total 305.52)

Now I've been told that they are £42.46 (Total 509.52) that's a 66.77% increase (Plus conversion to Euro & P&P)

 

I was looking forward to these but 66.77% increase is taking the p&%$...

 

Order cancelled

 

Hattons' just confirmed the Mk2 DBSO is going to cost £63.71 !  for that price lets hope it has more than just basic lighting ? 

 

Delivery not due till April/May 2018 along the the MK2F's............ almost 5 years then from announcement to delivery.....................

Edited January 9, 2017 by tractor_37260

[James90012]

But to provide some context - the new RRP for Hornby MK2Ds and MK2es - both of which are average models - is £39.99. Assuming an on-sale price of c. £35, that's only £6-8 between the Bachmann and Hornby models, a £6-8 which I expect will be worth every penny. You can't really compare to previous prices, but I think it's worth comparing across manufacturers. 

 

I managed to get by Hornby MK2es at £17 a coach, but that was at old RRPs.

 

Also, I sincerely doubt anyone really thought the Bachmann MK2Fs were ever going to be available at £25.06 (the pre-order price I was down for). I just did it 'just in case' Hattons were able to honor their estimate which I realistically didn't expect!

Edited January 9, 2017 by James90012

[Andy Mac]

My concern is that this is not the final price for the coaches......

 

I had a number of items pre ordered from the current catalogue.... now I've also had an email telling me my preorder for class 37, Mary Queen of Scots, has had its price increased....

 

So it must be quite conceivable that the price of the Mk2f's will be reviewed again next year and Bachmann could change the price at any point in time right up till release... And I think it's a safe bet to say that the price will only go up.....

 

Anyway, like others I'll need to decide what I'm going to do with my order.... I did have two rakes on order with some DBSO's, but not keen on the four figure price tag! I suppose I'll end up concentrating on the DBSO's and hopefully build up a couple of rakes over time...

 

What really really annoys me about the Mk2f's, class 90 is that Bachmann had no capability of delivering them within a reasonable time frame when they announced them.... now if Bachmann hadn't announced them, is it 4 years ago now, then I'm pretty sure someone else would have produced them by now, and we would have had them long before now and at a much more reasonable price.....

[tractor_37260]

 

Also, I sincerely doubt anyone really thought the Bachmann MK2Fs were ever going to be available at £25.06 (the pre-order price I was down for). I just did it 'just in case' Hattons were able to honor their estimate which I realistically didn't expect!

 

Yes I'd agree, but £63.71 each ! (with lighting) and not avail till April/May 2018 - the price will more that likely go up again by then........................

Edited January 9, 2017 by tractor_37260

[BigAndy]

Goodness me......(deep breathe)

 

Let's just take a moment people and let it all soak in, without any kneejerk reactions.

 

Put it all into perspective. I've been modelling in this hobby of ours for roughly 40 years or more now. When I first started, you didn't really have much choice in the matter with regards to modelling in 4mm or OO. The vast majority of RTR offerings really weren't up to much, but that was the way it was - and if you wanted to model the current scene back then, D+E locos were very limited and what was available wasn't really worth looking at.

 

So the modeller had to decide back then - buy RTR and put up with crappy motors, moulded detail and limited options OR but kits and build them OR buy a kit and get someone to build it for you. Either of the latter two and you were talking big money, even in the early 70's. I can very easily remember back to the Macclesfield exhibitions of the 70's when I were a lad, and a professional Model Maker by the name of Derek Lawrence used to attend every year with a demo stand, and no doubt pick up a lot of commission work in the process.

 

Point I'm making is that even back then, the price of a Derek Lawrence coach was wayyyyyy out of my league, but he had plenty of customers willing to spend their hard earned, on quality stock - I can't remember his prices, but in today's equivalent, I bet you'ld be looking at about £200 per coach.

 

So, we now have a major producer of Model Railway items, who are releasing what will undoubtably be a coach worth having, at today's price of sub £45!!!

 

I think we all need a bit of a reality check here and understand that you don't have to be very well off, to be able to own what would be classed as a high end kit built coach back in the 70's...........

 

We have for too long been conditioned to accept poor quality stuff in British outline, which thankfully has changed, but at the same time create uproar at what is perceived to be an outrageous price ( which hasn't changed but needs to ). Keep it down eh, as one Prime Minister once said "You've never had it so good".......

 

cheers

 

Andy

[DaveClass47]

You must have voted 'Yes' for Brexit with that outlook. Its becoming the biggest example of hindsight. You cant have everything. If the detail was less you would complain, if its too expensive you complain, if its too cheap you would complain as a shortcut has been made somewhere

 

Bachmann have clearly been monitoring the sales of a commissioned set here - where the coaches work out at over £70 each, and they are selling well

 

With respect, whether I voted for Yes or No with regard to Brexit is neither here or there on a model rail forum. 

 

As it transpires, I voted to remain, so you're argument in most respects falls flat.

 

You incorrectly assume that I would neither be happy with a model with less detail, costing less OR a detailed model costing too much.   I am perfectly happy with the level of detail offered on the Bachmann MK1, Hornby Mk2e, Hornby MK3 and even the Hornby MK4....as these are all still affordable to me and the average modeller.

Edited January 9, 2017 by DaveClass47

[DaveClass47]

Goodness me......(deep breathe)

 

Let's just take a moment people and let it all soak in, without any kneejerk reactions.

 

Put it all into perspective. I've been modelling in this hobby of ours for roughly 40 years or more now. When I first started, you didn't really have much choice in the matter with regards to modelling in 4mm or OO. The vast majority of RTR offerings really weren't up to much, but that was the way it was - and if you wanted to model the current scene back then, D+E locos were very limited and what was available wasn't really worth looking at.

 

So the modeller had to decide back then - buy RTR and put up with crappy motors, moulded detail and limited options OR but kits and build them OR buy a kit and get someone to build it for you. Either of the latter two and you were talking big money, even in the early 70's. I can very easily remember back to the Macclesfield exhibitions of the 70's when I were a lad, and a professional Model Maker by the name of Derek Lawrence used to attend every year with a demo stand, and no doubt pick up a lot of commission work in the process.

 

Point I'm making is that even back then, the price of a Derek Lawrence coach was wayyyyyy out of my league, but he had plenty of customers willing to spend their hard earned, on quality stock - I can't remember his prices, but in today's equivalent, I bet you'ld be looking at about £200 per coach.

 

So, we now have a major producer of Model Railway items, who are releasing what will undoubtably be a coach worth having, at today's price of sub £45!!!

 

I think we all need a bit of a reality check here and understand that you don't have to be very well off, to be able to own what would be classed as a high end kit built coach back in the 70's...........

 

We have for too long been conditioned to accept poor quality stuff in British outline, which thankfully has changed, but at the same time create uproar at what is perceived to be an outrageous price ( which hasn't changed but needs to ). Keep it down eh, as one Prime Minister once said "You've never had it so good".......

 

cheers

 

Andy

I see what you're saying Andy,

 

but, I think the era of "never had it so good" with regard to high quality models/price has passed.   Yes the quality is wonderful.   The prices ain't.    Looking back, the 2000's were the 'having it good' years.   Those of us who just joined the hobby in the early 2010's missed out on the best of the good times.

[Legend]

Hattons' just confirmed the Mk2 DBSO is going to cost £63.71 ! for that price lets hope it has more than just basic lighting ?

 

Delivery not due till April/May 2018 along the the MK2F's............ almost 5 years then from announcement to delivery.....................

This is actually less than I imagined. If you look at what they charged for the Autocoach on the basis it was a limited prototype then I really thought the DBSO would have been more. Still not happy. Frankly I'd prefer one without DCC @£45. What does it mean having DCC lights in normal 2Fs ? You can turn them on or off individually- what's the point?

 

I'm still not convinced by the price. Is this Hattons just taking a punt. I note Bachmann have still not confirmed prices on most of their 2017 range. Maybe that's deliberate as last years announcement was swamped by the reaction to the prices released at the same time. Maybe they are going to drip feed them this time.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Legend

[robertcwp]

This is actually less than I imagined. If you look at what they charged for the Autocoach on the basis it was a limited prototype then I really thought the DBSO would have been more. Still not happy. Frankly I'd prefer one without DCC @£45. What does it mean having DCC lights in normal 2Fs ? You can turn them on or off individually- what's the point?

 

I'm still not convinced by the price. Is this Hattons just taking a punt. I note Bachmann have still not confirmed prices on most of their 2017 range. Maybe that's deliberate as last years announcement was swamped by the reaction to the prices released at the same time. Maybe they are going to drip feed them this time.

They handed out price lists at the event yesterday, so they have confirmed prices. If I recall correctly (list not to hand) £74.95 for the DCC 2fs and £49.95 for the others.

[LaGrange]

With respect, whether I voted for Yes or No with regard to Brexit is neither here or there on a model rail forum. 

 

As it transpires, I voted to remain, so you're argument in most respects falls flat.

 

You incorrectly assume that I would neither be happy with a model with less detail, costing less OR a detailed model costing too much.   I am perfectly happy with the level of detail offered on the Bachmann MK1, Hornby Mk2e, Hornby MK3 and even the Hornby MK4....as these are all still affordable to me and the average modeller.

 

Starting a reply using the term 'with respect' is flawed. Meant to be the most depressing day of the year and it is the case with a few on here today. Leaving it there, no more needs to be said.

[DaveClass47]

Starting a reply using the term 'with respect' is flawed. Meant to be the most depressing day of the year and it is the case with a few on here today. Leaving it there, no more needs to be said.

I was willing to respect your views, hence the "with respect".  It is clear that you are showing me and my views very little of that.  Thanks for the advice, but I do not need an English lesson on how to start a sentence, nor am I depressing the mood on here.

 

I think it is best if you leave it there.   I will also do the same.

Edited January 9, 2017 by DaveClass47

[Andy Y]

I'm still not convinced by the price. Is this Hattons just taking a punt. I note Bachmann have still not confirmed prices on most of their 2017 range. Maybe that's deliberate as last years announcement was swamped by the reaction to the prices released at the same time. Maybe they are going to drip feed them this time.

 

It's a difficult position for me in between modellers, retailers and manufacturers but it needs to be said that, taking some of yesterday's announcements, that Bachmann haven't announced a price because they can't confirm order quantities with the factory for example until they know order levels. A retailer can take a guess what it may be and offer a qualified price (Hatton's have caveated that for example) and see how it plays out; after all they've got to guess how many units to order (and sell) at a price point.

 

What is unfair is when there's criticism targetted at the manufacturer who didn't quote any pricing at first announcement. Broadly it means that it's not just the retailer taking a punt but the customer too. You can't blame the horse trainer for the bookies' odds or for the size of the stake you made.

[ThaneofFife]

I wonder (following a few people here saying "order cancelled") if Bachmann directly or indirectly through its retailer chain are looking to sack off some releases altogether and are testing the waters with revised price announcements and watching the level of pre-orders before deciding, should we pull the plug........

 

who knows. I'm just guessing.  I have ordered 16 x mk2f coaches and 1 x DBSO and wont be cancelling.  there is a danger in that if I am right and we all start cancelling then none of us will get the models made. 

 

for those cancelling or thinking of cancelling it would be interesting to know how many coaches they actually had/have on pre-order in the first place.   2, 3.....4 coaches maybe?  hardly seems worth cancelling an order at that level.  

 

On a more positive note I think the price of the DBSO is very good as thats the same as the main aircon coach range but here I believe you also get cab interior lighting plus some kind of headcode display.  sure i read those features somewhere (probably 2 or 3 years ago now)..........

[Waverley47708]

So where are we with Mk 2 Air cons?

 

The 30 plus year old Mk2D ex Airfix, ex GMR ex someone else is still available from Hornby.  I bought one new for £17 about two months ago, now they are on Honrby's website for £39.99, the same price as the much newer Hornby Mk2E .  The current version is OK, not sure it is worth £39.99 though

 

The Hornby Mk2E which I was put off buying at the time as a result of the reviews and because I wanted to compare them to the what I thought was the soon to be released Bachman air cons. The sole bar issue put me off when they were £20 something, it definitely puts me off when they £39.99.

 

Lima Mk2Fs, with extreme etching windows, a bit of detailing and close coupling are my favourite at the moment.  In particular the Intercity (original) version.  Not sure the others are available in the original Intercity version.

 

And then the Bachmann Mk2 aircons, for a moment today when I read a post the were upwards of £70, I was stunned, however seems the RRP may be £49 for the non DCC ones.  Hopefully they will be better than the Hornby Mk2Es but only time will tell.

[MRDBLUE17]

Hi everyone,

 

The prices of the MK2's actually are not too bad especially the DBSO when you consider its RTR with lighting etc. A kit built alternative will cost you more. I understand if you need a few coaches it's going to add up but we've all had plenty of time to save up. I just hope a nice DRS set for the Cumbrian coast workings will get done at some point.

 

We have had some great years of good quality models at cheap prices, I still spend as much but will get less models for my money. It just helps me to decide what I really want to model and I've slowly been selling off what I don't need to fund those I would like.

 

Mark

[ThaneofFife]

yes about 4 years to save LOL!!

 

has anybody actually ordered the lesser spotted RFM Mk2f? 

[159220]

I too am holding out for a DRS set. If they were £49 I would be content. Be happy they are now in tooling in BR liveries. As I have many more years to wait until Bachmann, if ever make DRS! £150 for three is very reasonable when compared to a 2 car GWR 150/2 or a 4 car SWT 450!

[jjb1970]

I do have sympathy for retailers on the pre-order situation. Given that the market has moved to batch production and with increasing take up of dealer exclusive, crowd funding etc pre-ordering is not going away. If you pre-order a model it is not unreasonable to expect to know the price. On the other hand I wouldn't expect retailers to make a loss by honouring pre-order prices that are below the price they need to make a profit.

The answer would be for manufacturers to refrain from announcing until models are much closer to delivery. Then they face the risk of another manufacturing announcing the model first and facing accusations of duplicating somebody elses effort and probably losing sales, even if they started their project first.

So we have manufacturers in a bit of a bind over when to announce, retailers in a bind over pre-order prices and consumers in a bit of a pickle in not knowing what the real price of models they might want to pre-order will be. That is not satisfactory for any of the three parties, and I have sympathy for the predicament of all three parties. What I would say is that if a retailer honours the pre-order price then the honourable thing is to honour your order. Equally if the price rises significantly and the retailer cannot honour the pre-order price then there should be a no quibble/guilt free option to cancel the pre-order.

On the price of these models, it is what it is. Luckily, in the case of air-con Mk.2 coaches there are a few alternative options which are much cheaper if the price is considered too high.