Bachmann announce Mk2f's

[robertcwp]

Luckily, in the case of air-con Mk.2 coaches there are a few alternative options which are much cheaper if the price is considered too high.

Indeed there are, and modellers can always make that choice. For some the Hornby 2e stock will be plenty good enough and there are always the Airfix Mark 2ds, with improved livery by Hornby.

 

Bachmann really need to nail the 2f and get it right, really right. Others have left room for them to do so. A point I made at yesterday's launch. If they do, I doubt they will have any trouble shifting them, at least eight to me for a start, possibly more and even if they do end up at £60 or more a go, although the RRP listed at present is £49.95 (£5 cheaper than maroon porthole stock incidentally).

[Legend]

It's a difficult position for me in between modellers, retailers and manufacturers but it needs to be said that, taking some of yesterday's announcements, that Bachmann haven't announced a price because they can't confirm order quantities with the factory for example until they know order levels. A retailer can take a guess what it may be and offer a qualified price (Hatton's have caveated that for example) and see how it plays out; after all they've got to guess how many units to order (and sell) at a price point.

 

Sorry just seen Roberts reply where he states price lists handed round and confirmed. Original question was are Hattons taking a punt here as Bachmann haven't confirmed prices on web page. However prices appear to be based on information Bachmann have handed out.

 

Still not sure what the function of DCC is . Do they have decoders aboard to enable you to control lighting?

I'm DC with electronic track cleaners so really want to know what will happen when I put DBSO on track.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Legend

[Andy Y]

It's a difficult position for me in between modellers, retailers and manufacturers but it needs to be said that, taking some of yesterday's announcements, that Bachmann haven't announced a price because they can't confirm order quantities with the factory for example until they know order levels. A retailer can take a guess what it may be and offer a qualified price (Hatton's have caveated that for example) and see how it plays out; after all they've got to guess how many units to order (and sell) at a price point.

 

Sorry just seen Roberts reply where he states price lists handed round and confirmed. Original question was are Hattons taking a punt here as Bachmann haven't confirmed prices on web page. However prices appear to be based on information Bachmann have handed out

 

Yes; they've announced a price. I confirmed it earlier.

 

Which product is this that could be anywhere between £30 and £70?

 

When any manufacturer starts a process they are very unlikely to know the actual cost price they will pay. It starts from an estimate; tooling permutations and alterations can then affect it. And that's just the tooling. The unit manufactured cost could still vary based on the production run (X thousand at £A or Y thousand at £B?) and that's before currency exchanges are even thought about. 

[Legend]

Yes; they've announced a price. I confirmed it earlier.

 

Which product is this that could be anywhere between £30 and £70?

 

When any manufacturer starts a process they are very unlikely to know the actual cost price they will pay. It starts from an estimate; tooling permutations and alterations can then affect it. And that's just the tooling. The unit manufactured cost could still vary based on the production run (X thousand at £A or Y thousand at £B?) and that's before currency exchanges are even thought about.

 

Sorry I thought it was mk2fs but I've since seen prices confirmed. Yup it's the same when costing any product. There's always an element of business risk and sometimes a contingency built in

[Butler Henderson]

At the end of the day any pre order is going to be restricted, by Bachmann pricing policy, to no more than 15% off whatever Bachmanns price is at the date of release, regardless of whatever price is being advertised. If these are ££ then the possibility has to factored of whether they will be slow sellers and once the 15% max discount period has elapsed the likelihood of greater discounts being forthcoming.

[ThaneofFife]

It's a difficult position for me in between modellers, retailers and manufacturers but it needs to be said that, taking some of yesterday's announcements, that Bachmann haven't announced a price because they can't confirm order quantities with the factory for example until they know order levels. A retailer can take a guess what it may be and offer a qualified price (Hatton's have caveated that for example) and see how it plays out; after all they've got to guess how many units to order (and sell) at a price point.

 

Sorry just seen Roberts reply where he states price lists handed round and confirmed. Original question was are Hattons taking a punt here as Bachmann haven't confirmed prices on web page. However prices appear to be based on information Bachmann have handed out.

 

Still not sure what the function of DCC is . Do they have decoders aboard to enable you to control lighting?

I'm DC with electronic track cleaners so really want to know what will happen when I put DBSO on track.

 

my e-Hattons email states "dcc fitted" so to me each vehicle will be programmable or maybe one can assign the lights to all come on in a complete rake with one "roster no."

other than that I would say the functions are limited to on, off and hopefully adjustable dimming.  some might like flickering to indicate one faulty coach in a rake or a coach with the lights out completely but to me it would be akin to losing power over a dead frog and not worth going so far with that level of "realism".

 

I just hope the lighting is up to the standards of the Blue Pullman and includes vestibules and toilets and that there is no light bleed either at body joint lines or through the bodysides themselves which I have suffered from on Bachmann Mk1s even on a fairly dim lighting set up.

 

Highly doubt Bachmann will mirror Hornbys lighting method for coaches with the coach ends remaining relatively unlit or unlit toilets. at these prices any short fall in the quality of the  lighting will not be acceptable.  I dare say there is plenty of time for Bachmann to just go with the non DCC versions and scrap the dcc versions if pre-orders are looking unviable. 

Edited January 9, 2017 by ThaneofFife

[Legend]

my e-Hattons email states "dcc fitted" so to me each vehicle will be programmable or maybe one can assign the lights to all come on in a complete rake with one "roster no."

other than that I would say the functions are limited to on, off and hopefully adjustable dimming.  some might like flickering to indicate one faulty coach in a rake or a coach with the lights out completely but to me it would be akin to losing power over a dead frog and not worth going so far with that level of "realism".

 

I just hope the lighting is up to the standards of the Blue Pullman and includes vestibules and toilets and that there is no light bleed either at body joint lines or through the bodysides themselves which I have suffered from on Bachmann Mk1s even on a fairly dim lighting set up.

 

Highly doubt Bachmann will mirror Hornbys lighting method for coaches with the coach ends remaining relatively unlit or unlit toilets. at these prices any short fall in the quality of the  lighting will not be acceptable.  I dare say there is plenty of time for Bachmann to just go with the non DCC versions and scrap the dcc versions if pre-orders are looking unviable.

 

I'm just looking for a DBSO . I dont need or want lights, but it appears this is the only way to get one. Thanks for the info though

[Roy Langridge]

Lots of talk about DBSOs, I am hoping we get some more locos to go with them. How many 47/7s have been done by Bachmann?

 

Roy

[tractor_37260]

I wonder (following a few people here saying "order cancelled") if Bachmann directly or indirectly through its retailer chain are looking to sack off some releases altogether and are testing the waters with revised price announcements and watching the level of pre-orders before deciding, should we pull the plug........

 

who knows. I'm just guessing.  I have ordered 16 x mk2f coaches and 1 x DBSO and wont be cancelling.  there is a danger in that if I am right and we all start cancelling then none of us will get the models made. 

 

for those cancelling or thinking of cancelling it would be interesting to know how many coaches they actually had/have on pre-order in the first place.   2, 3.....4 coaches maybe?  hardly seems worth cancelling an order at that level.  

 

On a more positive note I think the price of the DBSO is very good as thats the same as the main aircon coach range but here I believe you also get cab interior lighting plus some kind of headcode display.  sure i read those features somewhere (probably 2 or 3 years ago now)..........

 

"Headcode" display on a DBSO ?  - em think you need to look again at a few photos of a real one .......................

[tractor_37260]

Lots of talk about DBSOs, I am hoping we get some more locos to go with them. How many 47/7s have been done by Bachmann?

 

Roy

 

Only one in ScotRail livery - 47 710 Sir Walter Scott - they also did a couple of 47/7's in NSE livery I think............?

[Andy Mac]

Only one in ScotRail livery - 47 710 Sir Walter Scott - they also did a couple of 47/7's in NSE livery I think............?

Also did a 47/7 in RES livery, which is also still available....

 

Might be a possibility that they release another 47/7 in Scotrail livery when they eventually release the coaches....

[Roy Langridge]

Also did a 47/7 in RES livery, which is also still available....

 

Might be a possibility that they release another 47/7 in Scotrail livery when they eventually release the coaches....

But the 47/7 in RES was not a "shove duff" was it? Only 47701 to 47717 were push/pull to work with the DBSOs. NSE 47s didn't do push/pull so it looks that only one 47 so far from Bachmann matches.

 

Thanks for replies,

 

Roy

[Andy Mac]

Roy,

 

I don't know which 47 7's could or couldn't do the push pull's.... you'd need to ask someone with more technical knowledge than me if all the 47 7's were able to do so....

[Roy Langridge]

Roy,

 

I don't know which 47 7's could or couldn't do the push pull's.... you'd need to ask someone with more technical knowledge than me if all the 47 7's were able to do so....

But I already gave that info, only 47701 to 47717 were so equipped.

 

Roy

[brushman47544]

Indeed there are, and modellers can always make that choice. For some the Hornby 2e stock will be plenty good enough and there are always the Airfix Mark 2ds, with improved livery by Hornby.

 

The Hornby Mk2E would indeed have been fine for me, and still could be, if Hornby had got the livery dimensions correct on the Blue/Grey TSO. A corrected re-release before Bachmann's Mk2F arrives and I might well get some.

 

Roy,

 

I don't know which 47 7's could or couldn't do the push pull's.... you'd need to ask someone with more technical knowledge than me if all the 47 7's were able to do so....

 

All the 47/7s were push-pull, but the RES 47/7s from 47721 upwards could only work with the ex-Class 307 NAA PCVs and the original "shove-duffs" as they were known, 47701-47717 could only work with the Scotrail Mk2F DBSOs.

[Roy Langridge]

All the 47/7s were push-pull, but the RES 47/7s from 47721 upwards could only work with the ex-Class 307 NAA PCVs and the original "shove-duffs" as they were known, 47701-47717 could only work with the Scotrail Mk2F DBSOs.

 

Not quite correct - the RES 47/7s were not true push pull. They only had equipment that allowed somebody in the PCV to communicate with the driver in the Class 47, telling to them when to apply power / brakes. In effect the PCV had a shunter in it who used a slightly more complex arrangement than typical lights / hand signals. They were only allowed to propel at very slow speed as a result.

 

Roy

[tractor_37260]

The MK2Fs have had a RRP of TBA for at least the past two years. As we've seen previously with the Brighton Atlantic, the LMS Inspection Saloon, the Hawksworth Autocoach and the SE&CR Birdcages to name a few, people order at the Hattons made up price before a RRP is announced. They then complain when a RRP is announced and they get a email stating that the model can not be supplied at the Hattons made up price.

 

As consumers, that purchase the end products, if the manufacturers want to base their production quantities and profit margins on so called pre-orders, then at least they should be able to indicate a realistic price to produce the item in the first place, otherwise any pre-order figures based on "fantasy" prices are totally meaningless.

 

Would you pre-order a new car at a "fantasy" price and still take delivery on being told the price had in fact doubled once it was delivered !  I very much doubt it.............................

 

It's also interesting to compare the prices of re-issued/re-liveried TTA / PCA / MEA wagons etc, the associated design and tooling costs having been recouped long ago, yet some of these wagons have more than doubled in price ! 

[Roy Langridge]

As consumers, that purchase the end products, if the manufacturers want to base their production quantities and profit margins on so called pre-orders, then at least they should be able to indicate a realistic price to produce the item in the first place, otherwise any pre-order figures based on "fantasy" prices are totally meaningless.

 

Would you pre-order a new car at a "fantasy" price and still take delivery on being told the price had in fact doubled once it was delivered !  I very much doubt it.............................

 

It's also interesting to compare the prices of re-issued/re-liveried TTA / PCA / MEA wagons etc, the associated design and tooling costs having been recouped long ago, yet some of these wagons have more than doubled in price ! 

 

The problem is that the manufacturers that we deal with have little control over any of the factors that affect price now. They are probably as frustrated about all this as we are. Unless production is brought back in house, which I doubt will ever happen, then we will all have to get used to it.

 

I guess the only other option is the SLW approach whereby there are no pre-orders and we only know hat is to be released when it is ready for us to buy.

 

Roy

[Legend]

The problem is that the manufacturers that we deal with have little control over any of the factors that affect price now. They are probably as frustrated about all this as we are. Unless production is brought back in house, which I doubt will ever happen, then we will all have to get used to it.

 

I guess the only other option is the SLW approach whereby there are no pre-orders and we only know hat is to be released when it is ready for us to buy.

 

Roy

Bachmann is owned by Kader , so it's as much "in house" as you can get. I think it's Kaders expectations of margin that is the issue here , probably on the basis that they can use capacity to serve higher margin European Markets. Do I know this..........no , but consider the following example

 

Hornby and Bachmann, amongst others, all made in China, the cost of plastics , metals , labour are all the same. Hornby have to pay someone else to make their models because they have no capacity of their own. That company has to make a profit , so really Hornby is at a disadvantage here. Bachmann source their models from Kader , who own Bachman, yes even though it's the same group, Kader also have to make a profit. Bachmann should have the advantage of vertical integration, Yet Hornby can bring you Colletts at £45 mrp and Bachmann Thompsons @ £52.50 . Ok they are different but most people would consider them typical highly detailed coaches , probably similar size of market albeit one is GWR and other LNER . The answer can only be that Kader expect a higher profit per unit than Hornby. Yes Kader needs to make a profit , but as costs are similar it follows that Bachmann must be paying a higher amount to Kader than Hornby are to their third party suppliers. The test to see what people would pay were the Inspection Saloons , that was followed by Autocoaches . Presumably they sold them and now Birdcages , Thompsons and 2fs are following on.

[rembrow]

As consumers, that purchase the end products, if the manufacturers want to base their production quantities and profit margins on so called pre-orders, then at least they should be able to indicate a realistic price to produce the item in the first place, otherwise any pre-order figures based on "fantasy" prices are totally meaningless.

 

Would you pre-order a new car at a "fantasy" price and still take delivery on being told the price had in fact doubled once it was delivered !  I very much doubt it.............................

 

It's also interesting to compare the prices of re-issued/re-liveried TTA / PCA / MEA wagons etc, the associated design and tooling costs having been recouped long ago, yet some of these wagons have more than doubled in price ! 

 

You have hit squarely on the issue that separates the selling strategy of Bachmann (and Heljan,Dapol) compared to Hornby. Bachmann announce a model at a very early stage of development, on most occasions before any serious r&d has occurred. I believe they do this to ensure they put a 'marker' down on that model type, however the flaw is that there are long lead in times and in the last few years, due to uncertainty of production costs, they don't know what their production costs will be until the tooling is completed and they have a production quantity and slot. Hornby have a long established policy of announcing models at a later stage of development and at a stage where they can more accurately establish costs, and since resolving there production problems with their old supplier, they have been nearly meeting their target of getting a newly tooled model to market within the catalogue year. In 2016, only the unrebuilt Merchant Navy has spilled over to 2017 and that has been tooled and artwork decided.

 

Bachmann announced last year that it was their intention of reducing the time between announcement and availability in the shops, however I see little change with this years announcements, as none are showing on their product development timeline update as being in r&d within the uk. If they are purely relying on improved times of cad/tooling/production by their parent company in China, then it will still be a 2 year wait. For me, Bachmann need to be prepared to prepare models for cad work before announcing them, so that there is the aim of a within catalogue year release, as the only way of returning to pricing that could be set within the catalogue. There are always going to be production, currency and global trade issuers that can affect this, however as purchasers we should be able to budget for our purchases when they are announced.

 

It's also worth pointing out another major pricing difference between Bachmann and Hornby. While both have recently increased prices on previously announced and priced new models, Hornby have a longstanding policy of maintaining the original price on retailer prior orders, which occurred with the increase last November. This enabled my retailer to continue with the original retail price he and I had agreed on my pre-orders. Bachmann do not offer such a policy, and I am therefore unwilling to pre order until I know the final price, near to the release.

 

I cancelled my pre orders for the Mk2F coaches some 2 years ago. These had been originally priced by Bachmann in the high £20s I believe, but that was cancelled and replaced by tba. I expected them to be circa £50-55 when priced, based on the finalised price for the Thompson coaches, so am surprised that they have been priced below that value.

 

In fairness to Bachmann, other makers have the same practice, and with Dapol , although they price new models on announcement, it is meaningless, as you will expect to have a sudden price increase when the model is ready for production.

Edited January 10, 2017 by rembrow

[cessna152towser]

has anybody actually ordered the lesser spotted RFM Mk2f?

Yes and it is the only Bachmann Aircon which I have ordered.

Partly because I already have enough Lima, Dapol and Hornby Aircon Mark 2s but no Mark 2 catering vehicle.

More especially though my reason for placing the order back in June 2013 was that we had the real thing on our local heritage railway, in blue and grey (as preserved) livery, which is only authentic for the preservation era as the full size coaches were only modified when the raspberry ripple inter-city livery was introduced.

A lot has changed since then and with the resurgence of rail travel the Mark 2 buffet which was based at Whitrope has now returned to the national network.

Edited January 10, 2017 by cessna152towser

[Andy Mac]

Quoting Legends previous post....

 

'The answer can only be that Kader expect a higher profit per unit than Hornby. Yes Kader needs to make a profit , but as costs are similar it follows that Bachmann must be paying a higher amount to Kader than Hornby are to their third party suppliers"

 

 

I'm sure a couple of years ago it was reported here, that Kader wanted the profit margins of Bachmann UK to be increased to similar levels to their other business units. I think it was about the same time of the retirements and new appointments at Bachmann..

Edited January 10, 2017 by Andy Mac

[Roy Langridge]

Bachmann is owned by Kader , so it's as much "in house" as you can get. I think it's Kaders expectations of margin that is the issue here , probably on the basis that they can use capacity to serve higher margin European Markets. Do I know this..........no , but consider the following example

 

Hornby and Bachmann, amongst others, all made in China, the cost of plastics , metals , labour are all the same. Hornby have to pay someone else to make their models because they have no capacity of their own. That company has to make a profit , so really Hornby is at a disadvantage here. Bachmann source their models from Kader , who own Bachman, yes even though it's the same group, Kader also have to make a profit. Bachmann should have the advantage of vertical integration, Yet Hornby can bring you Colletts at £45 mrp and Bachmann Thompsons @ £52.50 . Ok they are different but most people would consider them typical highly detailed coaches , probably similar size of market albeit one is GWR and other LNER . The answer can only be that Kader expect a higher profit per unit than Hornby. Yes Kader needs to make a profit , but as costs are similar it follows that Bachmann must be paying a higher amount to Kader than Hornby are to their third party suppliers. The test to see what people would pay were the Inspection Saloons , that was followed by Autocoaches . Presumably they sold them and now Birdcages , Thompsons and 2fs are following on.

 

Sorry - my use of "in house" was probably not a good choice. Perhaps "in country" would have been better. As soon as a company chooses to manufacture far from their main customer base too many variables come into play which affect cost over the extended periods that Bachmann's announcement policy lead to. Labour costs, exchange rates, taxation etc. are all completely out of their control. As China heads to a more western way of work (as it is starting to) and worker conditions have to improve, labour costs will increase significantly - and they are the most significant factor in costs.

 

Roy

Edited January 10, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[PaulCheffus]

It's also interesting to compare the prices of re-issued/re-liveried TTA / PCA / MEA wagons etc, the associated design and tooling costs having been recouped long ago, yet some of these wagons have more than doubled in price ! 

Hi

 

Assembly time = workers wages which have increased.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Legend]

Hi

 

Assembly time = workers wages which have increased.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

But labour is only a % of the final retail price. There's materials, manufacturers margin, carriage, retailers margin all in the final selling price . So for a selling price to have doubled and it all be down to labour , the labour would have to quadrupled and more probably. It hasn't Edited January 10, 2017 by Legend