trevor7598 Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 Are any of the Birdcage coaches that Bachmann will one day produce the types that ran on the Longmoor Military Railway, please? The Longmoor Birdcages were of the 54ft variety, and were not only shorter than those that Bachmann are to produce, but the arrangement of the compartments was also different. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted March 18, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 18, 2017 The Longmoor Birdcages were of the 54ft variety, and were not only shorter than those that Bachmann are to produce, but the arrangement of the compartments was also different. Indeed The prototypes Bachmann are modelling were I believe pretty much confined to fixed sets from construction to scrapping and as such are rather limited in what a modeller can do with them. The 54ft variety by contrast were the ones that got about a bit and could be seen running round as lose stock or as a single coach train on the likes of the KESR, etc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris45lsw Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 Indeed The prototypes Bachmann are modelling were I believe pretty much confined to fixed sets from construction to scrapping and as such are rather limited in what a modeller can do with them. The 54ft variety by contrast were the ones that got about a bit and could be seen running round as lose stock or as a single coach train on the likes of the KESR, etc There were 20 54ft birdcage sets (ie 60 coaches), SR Set Nos. 543-562, and, actually, most of them stayed as 3-car sets for all of their Mainland life so they are as 'limited' as the 60ft sets. More so as they are of little use to the BR period modeller - The 52 surviving coaches in capital stock were drastically rebuilt between 1947 and 1949 and transferred to the Isle of Wight. I don't believe that any featured on the K&ESR (until the preservation era). Incidentally if anyone is prepared to attack such expensive coaches, then it should be possible to model Pull-Push set 660 using the appropriate Bachmann coaches. Chris Knowles-Thomas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trevor7598 Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 I wonder if Bachmann will be issuing an update on the progress on their Birdcage sets anytime soon. A model shop sales assistant recently told me not to expect them before 2018. It would be nice to see a livery sample at Ally Pally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireline Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 I wonder if Bachmann will be issuing an update on the progress on their Birdcage sets anytime soon. A model shop sales assistant recently told me not to expect them before 2018. It would be nice to see a livery sample at Ally Pally. I'm expecting them to arrive with Lord Lucan, on a cart pulled by Shergar.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul.Uni Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Good news if you are getting the BR Crimson set, the RRP of these have gone back down to £59.95 each.The SE&CR Dark Lake & SR Olive Green are £64.95 each. All still due Sep/Oct. Info from http://Bachmann.co.uk/prod1.php?prod_selected=branchline&prod=6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted March 21, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 21, 2017 Indeed The prototypes Bachmann are modelling were I believe pretty much confined to fixed sets from construction to scrapping and as such are rather limited in what a modeller can do with them. The 54ft variety by contrast were the ones that got about a bit and could be seen running round as lose stock or as a single coach train on the likes of the KESR, etc IIRC the electrical equipment was shared between the three coaches of the set rather than each vehicle having a full complement. If you split them up, you would have at least one coach with no working lights. A bit odd, but perhaps done deliberately to keep sets intact? John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris45lsw Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 IIRC the electrical equipment was shared between the three coaches of the set rather than each vehicle having a full complement. If you split them up, you would have at least one coach with no working lights. A bit odd, but perhaps done deliberately to keep sets intact? John IIRC the electrical equipment was shared between the three coaches of the set rather than each vehicle having a full complement. If you split them up, you would have at least one coach with no working lights. A bit odd, but perhaps done deliberately to keep sets intact? John As said before the 54ft 3-sets were maintained just as rigidly as the 60ft ones in the vast majority of cases. And the 54ft sets did not run on BR in original form (only on the IoW in rebuilt form). In both cases, as built, only the centre lavatory compo had a dynamo and battery boxes. The sets were intended to be indivisible and this saved the cost of two sets of electrical equipment per set. Of course it was a nuisance if a coach developed a defect - the whole set had to be withdrawn for repairs. When the sets started doing less 'fast' work the SR found that one set was inadequate for three coaches and from 1931 fitted an extra set. In the case of the 60ft sets the additional dynamo etc was fitted to the brake third - the lavatory brake thirds never had lighting equipment while in 3-sets. Chris Knowles-Thomas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trevor7598 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 As said before the 54ft 3-sets were maintained just as rigidly as the 60ft ones in the vast majority of cases. And the 54ft sets did not run on BR in original form (only on the IoW in rebuilt form). In both cases, as built, only the centre lavatory compo had a dynamo and battery boxes. The sets were intended to be indivisible and this saved the cost of two sets of electrical equipment per set. Of course it was a nuisance if a coach developed a defect - the whole set had to be withdrawn for repairs. When the sets started doing less 'fast' work the SR found that one set was inadequate for three coaches and from 1931 fitted an extra set. In the case of the 60ft sets the additional dynamo etc was fitted to the brake third - the lavatory brake thirds never had lighting equipment while in 3-sets. Chris Knowles-Thomas Bachmann have tooled for the additional dynamo etc under the brake third. They have also provided for the lighting as built, ie. the wiring on top of the roof. The wiring was later transferred to the inside, and this change has been modelled. At last we have a projected date for their release. Great news !. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Graham_Muz Posted March 25, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 25, 2017 First painted samples of the BR crimson version are on display in the Bachmann club area at the London Festival of Model Railways this weekend see here https://grahammuz.com/2017/03/25/kernow-mrc-bulleid-diesels-break-cover-along-with-gate-stock-livery-samples-Bachmann-birdcage-set-livery-sample-and-other-sr-model-news/ for pictures. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
miles73128 Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 First painted samples of the BR crimson version are on display in the Bachmann club area at the London Festival of Model Railways this weekend see here https://grahammuz.com/2017/03/25/kernow-mrc-bulleid-diesels-break-cover-along-with-gate-stock-livery-samples-Bachmann-birdcage-set-livery-sample-and-other-sr-model-news/ for pictures. Wow, they look good! Thanks for the info as I cant attend. Now a silly question, what is the difference between Crimson and Vermillion? I've some ex LNER and Mk1's etc in Crimson, am I correct in thinking that Vermillion is a brighter red? In the book "Southern Coaches" by Michael Welch ISBN 978-1906419-45-5 it looks bright red in some pictures. Of course that will due to film from the 50s, but it's a much brighter shade than (LMS?) Crimson? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinTrucks Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 (edited) Wow, they look good! Thanks for the info as I cant attend. Now a silly question, what is the difference between Crimson and Vermillion? I've some ex LNER and Mk1's etc in Crimson, am I correct in thinking that Vermillion is a brighter red? In the book "Southern Coaches" by Michael Welch ISBN 978-1906419-45-5 it looks bright red in some pictures. Of course that will due to film from the 50s, but it's a much brighter shade than (LMS?) Crimson? Thanks What a can of worms you have opened!!! Vermillion is an orangey-red and is *generally* used on loco buffer beams. Crimson is a slightly bluey-red. The colour of red used on "blood and custard", "red and cream", "crimson and cream" liveried BR stock is known as BR Crimson Lake, according to a respected colleague who is presently sorting his way through piles of paperwork from BR and SR days at Lancing Works. AFAIK LMS Crimson is identical to BR Maroon. All these reddy colours vary according to the lighting conditions in which they are viewed, whether or not they have been varnished and, if so, how many coats of varnish they are wearing. Additionally, if you are looking at old photos, slides or cine (including cinema films), the film itself can introduce further variations. Keep calm and carry on. Martin Edit: AND I FORGOT TO MENTION WEATHERING!!! Edited March 25, 2017 by MartinTrucks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenGiraffe22 Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Uh oh, sounds like the malachite discussion all over again great to see some more progress though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted March 25, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 25, 2017 (edited) What a can of worms you have opened!!! Vermillion is an orangey-red and is *generally* used on loco buffer beams. Crimson is a slightly bluey-red. The colour of red used on "blood and custard", "red and cream", "crimson and cream" liveried BR stock is known as BR Crimson Lake, according to a respected colleague who is presently sorting his way through piles of paperwork from BR and SR days at Lancing Works. AFAIK LMS Crimson is identical to BR Maroon. All these reddy colours vary according to the lighting conditions in which they are viewed, whether or not they have been varnished and, if so, how many coats of varnish they are wearing. Additionally, if you are looking at old photos, slides or cine (including cinema films), the film itself can introduce further variations. Keep calm and carry on. Martin Edit: AND I FORGOT TO MENTION WEATHERING!!! BR Red, whatever fancier names it got dressed up with, faded like the clappers. Within a very few years it could end up anywhere between how it started and a sort of orangey-pink shade. I once went to see, with a view to purchasing, a red Renault 12 that had always been parked in the same place, next to a wall so that only one side got the sun. The two sides of it would have demonstrated the difference perfectly. All reds are unstable, some more than others. John Edited March 25, 2017 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 25, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 25, 2017 All reds are unstable, some more than others. John A reference to persons of a particular political persuasion? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trevor7598 Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 It was good to see a livery sample of the forthcoming Birdcage coaches from Bachmann. Only the BR crimson livery sample was on show. Here are some images from Ally Pally, unfortunately there are some reflections from the glass cabinet. 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 That's NOT crimson - nor for that matter is the Kernow gate stock, both need to be MUCH more vivid. Go and have a conversation with Dave Hammersley at Roxey at Ally Pally who knows a thing or two about Birdcage sets having sold several hundred in the last 35 years! Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trevor7598 Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 That's NOT crimson - nor for that matter is the Kernow gate stock, both need to be MUCH more vivid. Go and have a conversation with Dave Hammersley at Roxey at Ally Pally who knows a thing or two about Birdcage sets having sold several hundred in the last 35 years! Jon I suggest you have a moan at Kernow and Bachmann, I'm just a messenger. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted March 25, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 25, 2017 (edited) That's NOT crimson - nor for that matter is the Kernow gate stock, both need to be MUCH more vivid. Go and have a conversation with Dave Hammersley at Roxey at Ally Pally who knows a thing or two about Birdcage sets having sold several hundred in the last 35 years! Jon It's a darn sight closer than the brownish purple mess that has adorned the lower halves of many r-t-r corridor coaches in so-called crimson and cream. Nowhere near the ex-works colour, I grant you, but pretty good for a set that's seen two or three years service. John Edited March 25, 2017 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 P1300772.JPGP1300774.JPGP1300773.JPGIt was good to see a livery sample of the forthcoming Birdcage coaches from Bachmann. Only the BR crimson livery sample was on show. Here are some images from Ally Pally, unfortunately there are some reflections from the glass cabinet. Nice photos, what is the NSE EMU in the cabinet please? (4-TC or 4-REP?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Darius43 Posted March 26, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 26, 2017 Nice photos, what is the NSE EMU in the cabinet please? (4-TC or 4-REP?) It's a 4-TC - being produced by Bachmann for the Kernow Model Rail Centre. Cheers Darius Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted March 26, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 26, 2017 BR Red, whatever fancier names it got dressed up with, faded like the clappers. Within a very few years it could end up anywhere between how it started and a sort of orangey-pink shade. I've wondered on-and-off if the rather orangy colour of the carriages in Dalby's illustrations for the Thomas books might actually reflect what the artist saw (around Leicester) in the late 40s / early 50s, unbiased by any knowledge of official descriptions? I suspect this idea falls down on the 1945 date for his first illustrations - he'd be seeing faded LMS crimson lake rather than faded BR crimson - not the same starting colour. Or LNER brown on the ex-GCR and GNR lines? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Darius43 Posted March 26, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 26, 2017 I've wondered on-and-off if the rather orangy colour of the carriages in Dalby's illustrations for the Thomas books might actually reflect what the artist saw (around Leicester) in the late 40s / early 50s, unbiased by any knowledge of official descriptions? I suspect this idea falls down on the 1945 date for his first illustrations - he'd be seeing faded LMS crimson lake rather than faded BR crimson - not the same starting colour. Or LNER brown on the ex-GCR and GNR lines? I always imagined Annie and Clarabel were teak coaches as illustrated. Of course I haven't really considered this in 45 years but there it is. Cheers Darius Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Thanks to Bachmann for the images of the livery samples of the Birdcage stock shown at Ally Pally. 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 What a can of worms you have opened!!! Vermillion is an orangey-red and is *generally* used on loco buffer beams. Crimson is a slightly bluey-red. The colour of red used on "blood and custard", "red and cream", "crimson and cream" liveried BR stock is known as BR Crimson Lake, according to a respected colleague who is presently sorting his way through piles of paperwork from BR and SR days at Lancing Works. AFAIK LMS Crimson is identical to BR Maroon. Martin Edit: AND I FORGOT TO MENTION WEATHERING!!! I understand LMS Crimson & BR Maroon belong to another worm-can .............. though supposedly the same, it's said that the early post-war colour was darker ( Precision Paints supply different variants - or at least used to.) but that might have been simply the effect of fewer varnish coats when finances were tight - moreover some though the Pacifics painted red in the 'fifties were different from the LMS colour though that was eventually believed to be an illusion caused by the difference in lining if I remember rightly ! Is your 'Lancing Works' colleague hoping to publish his findings in some form ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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