Heljan Warley 2013 news

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

...there is no excuse for their mistakes Justin....Phil gave them all of the dimensions & drawings for the 33/0 the first time around and they still disregarded them and codged it. 

 

It is time that they showed more respect for their customers. 

 

Dave 

[PhilH]

Going downhill fast....the thread that is.

 

I think this forum needs a generic model knocking template where you can just enter different manufacturers and item names.

[kernowtim]

Another try!!

[kintbury jon]

If they can sort out the roof issues that will be good enough for me.  My fleet of 33's consists of 004,008,101,108,114,118,201 & 207.  I'd probably have had more 33/0's if they had the same roof as the 33/1's.

 

For me 33033 is going to be bought as it will go nicely with 207 on some construction trains.  I may well replace blue 004 with 003 but this will be dependent on how much they are selling them for.  A little surprised that 008 in green is not on the list.  

[tomstaf]

Thanks for the pics Tim. If anyone can find out if it's just the early 33/0 they're doing or (hopefully) the later one with the modified roof?

 

Cheers

 

Tom

[Butler Henderson]

Thanks for the pics Tim. If anyone can find out if it's just the early 33/0 they're doing or (hopefully) the later one with the modified roof?

 

RTT see post 138 and the answer is yes.

 

Provided it looks right next to the 33/1 as it was the cab profile on the previously produced 33/0s that was the major fault I will be buying a couple in different liveries.

[phil gollin]

.

 

Heljan's announcement re. the Class 33/0s stated ; "Models planned for release soon are (sooner than you expect)".

 

Did they state that unexpected release date today ?

 

.

 

  

[Bernard Lamb]

...there is no excuse for their mistakes Justin....Phil gave them all of the dimensions & drawings for the 33/0 the first time around and they still disregarded them and codged it. 

 

It is time that they showed more respect for their customers. 

 

Dave 

Oh for crying out loud.

Give it a rest.

You have made your point.

The other side are unable to do so.

If they could we could than all make up our own minds as to how we view the rights and wrongs of the situation.

Bernard

[alfsboy]

This is a real can of worms .On the one hand is some one  expecting  near perfection from a  100 quid toy train and on the other people  who just accept a decent model .its an insurmountable problem and cant be solved .I suspect in a lot of cases its time which is also money ,moulding skills and perhaps the actual prototypes not being easy to make accurately due to mould limitations .They make items that to me look like the prototype and to a few others dont because  they know the prototype intimately or at least  say they do on forums .If someone pays me to make a model I make it as accurately as the price they  pay me .I suspect most manufactures do too .Bachmann can throw in a few more quid because they own the factory lock stock and barrel  but their cheaper US models are a compromise in detail  that you either accept oror do it yourself.In the electronics factory i worked for a while the difference between perfection and make it down to a price was 20 quid an hour per person employed.Only the MOD would pay the top price and got very high quality work .I have no idea what Heljan promise in their blurb .Do they promise perfection .No idea, bet they dont LOL.

Way back when ,I once did some research work on some F1 cars for  a Japanese resin kit company  .I has access at tests ,press passes etc and blagged my way into getting  several rolls  worth of slides on two cars .All the engine detail ,interior of cockpit ,steering wheel exact side few ,under the gear box ,all secret stuff  I couldnt believe they let me (well they didnt actually LET  me ).I sent off the shots to Japan and after quite a few months  the kits arrived and they had ignored every detail apart from the body shape .No accurate steering wheel ,generic seat . crap undertray blah blah .Why I asked .Simple they said, no time to make an exact model and price would be much higher and production delayed until the next season and as I say ,as cold as  a Tina Charles 45.They said if a customer wanted a better one ,make it himself .The models were not licenced of course, at 30 grand a throw.I did sell the shots to a magazine in Japan so made great money in the end  but no decent model .I wont say which cars ,they probably still have a hit man looking for me .Life isnt simple and one persons obsession is anothers  curse .

[298]

I don't think it's an issue of having the right headline on the drivers newspaper for that date, or the correct number of rings on the teapot heater in the cab, it's mire about getting the basic shape right so the model looks like what it should. Your "That'll do brigade" will probably buy anything, but get the basic shape wrong and the model simply won't sell and there won't be re-runs in different liveries to keep the collectors happy.

 

So basically, the shape has to be right. Heljan may have thought the tooling mistakes on the 86 were too expensive to correct or weren't worth bothering with, but it's not like it was old tooling they were working with, and have paid for that mistake in the long run.

[jjnewitt]

If you would like to enlighten me about its hideous issues then it would be much appreciated.

I didn't say anything about hideous issues. Please don't try and put words in my mouth.

 

There are several issues with the Heljan class 14 mainly to do with the cab and the chassis. The rain strip in the roof is too low and the relationship between the cab sides and roof isn't quite correct either. The green used by Heljan is way off the BR Sherwood green it should be. This last thing is a particular niggle as Heljan got the same colour right on their class 47s! The chassis, as it comes, has way too much sideplay on the driving wheels and the slots in which the wheels are constrained allow for a lot of movement. Vertical movement is fine but not horizontal. I don't expect watch like mechanisms in RTR products but the chassis is incredibly sloppy. The coulping rods are rubish as well and they might as well have not bothered with the spring and hornblock detail. A lot of these errors can be fixed but they shouldn't really be there in the first place. It would also be nice if Heljan had included alternative buffer beams without the great big holes for the couplings. I have one and spent quite a lot time trying to turn it into a decent model.

 

 

Heljan, just like the other RTR companies, are capable of producing good, indifferent and poor models. The Hymek falls into the former catagory, the class 86 into the latter and the Teddy Bear into the middle. The trouble is you just never know what you're going to get when they do something.

 

Personally I think the quiality issues that are there in British RTR are down to models being built down to a price. Hornby's ridiculous 'design clever' being a case in point. It seems mostly that companies draw up a CAD and if it's good then great and if it's not then that unfortunately it's what you get. There is a perception that modellers in this country will only pay so much for a loco and they also want gimicks like directional lighting included. This limits the money available to get the basic shape right which to me is the most important thing. It is supposed to be a model of something and so should look like it. It's not just a case of 'experts' picking holes in a loco trying to find the slightest fault, though there are some out there that do so. Anyone for example should be able to see that the roof profile on the Bachmann 24/5 is wrong. I shall look forward to Rapido Trains entry into the market which hopefully might shake things up a little and will be interested to see whether a certain member of this forum can actually deliver on his promises with his new range. Personally I'd much rather have one decent model that I don't have to spend time correcting errors on than half a dozen iffy products. This leaves more time for other things.

 

Justin

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... But I don't want to pay over the odds for something which is inferior to the offerings of Bachmann and Hornby. Are they worth it, or not?

For anyone looking for a RTR model with a decent drive system, there's not a lot of alternatives for many of the diesel classes Heljan have released in OO model form. Some they have got very wrong: that 47 for all its being first on the market with a good drive I wouldn't touch, likewise DP2 where the body shape has been visibly compromised to go round set track curves. But most generally look enough like the prototype to say instantly 'that's a whatever'. Some are truly pleasing, the 15 and 16 really get the appearance of these dire devices, and now that Heljan are finally getting around to the initial version of the Baby Deltic and 26/0, my KX area circa 1960 cup potentially runneth over. (As an aside, I never guessed that such a crockfest as the Thompson L1 and classes 15, 16, 21, 23 and 105 might all become available in RTR form!)

 

In comparison to the RTR competition, I don't feel they are significantly better or worse. Both Bachmann and Hornby have inaccurate and weak diesel models in their respective ranges (not talking Railroad in the case of Hornby) alongside their 'stars'. But as ever, the weak are generally able to be massaged into something better with some work.

[Accurascale Fran]

I didn't say anything about hideous issues. Please don't try and put words in my mouth.

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. I think that's an overreaction on your part to be honest. Thank you for taking the time out to explain to me what the issues are. Having never seen a real one in the flesh it can be hard for me to see some of the errors that bother others. However, as you said a lot of it is fixable (shouldn't have to be as you say) and I rather that than something like major body shape blunders like your Bachmann class 25 example.

[frobisher]

I think it would be difficult for RE to stop Heljan doing this, it's not as if they had exclusivity to produce the model with a company say like Dapol and the 68. Obviously this is the sting in the tail for the way the relationship ended.

Whilst we don't know the full detail of the settlement, I would find it highly unlikely that RE would get all their money back (as apparently they did) AND hold title to the CAD/tooling work done by Heljan. So yup, this is the obvious sting in the tail. Though given that what we're told was part of the dispute was that Heljan weren't implementing the feedback given to them by RE on aspects of the work done, I'd suspect that there's a chance this won't be the "definitive 33/0" originally intended. Time will tell, but I don't blame Heljan for wanting to salvage something from this mess.

[black and decker boy]

Well if Heljan have corrected the cab roof to match the 33/1 then I will happily stick with them. I thought RE were going a bit too far as the project seemed to get wings. Etched side grilles amongst other items which seemed OTT for me. The ability to pick and choose colours etc is also a benefit though had placed an order with RE for 2 pairs.

 

For those that want the RE sound, they will still be able to fit into the Heljan model but as sound is all about the files not the model, we will have to wait and see if the RE chip is better or the same as sayHowes orLegomanbiffo.

[PhilH]

 

There is a perception that modellers in this country will only pay so much for a loco

 

 

Unfortunately, for a lot of people you can substitute 'are able to' for 'will'. 

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

....Phil,

 

There is no rocket science in manufacturing an excellent body shape and offering several levels of detail (as car companies have done for a very long time) to fit various pockets e.g. I would always buy unpainted models because I much prefer to create my own weathered finish. The notion that it is somehow acceptable to get the basic dimensions of a supposed model of a loco wrong because UK modellers can't afford the correct shape is ridiculous. 

 

Dave

[jjb1970]

I think there is a misconception that the "that'll do brigade" either don't care about accuracy or are not interested in improvement. I can only speak for myself but for the most part I am fully aware of model defficiencies and errors. And I also believe in product improvement. What I also think is that if a model is acceptable to my eyes (which is clearly a subjective opinion) then I wouldn't get too hung up about flaws so long as the overall impression looks good. And there is also a point that if it is the only model of a prototype available then it may be a choice of either going without, accepting a less than perfect model, waiting for somebody else or getting a kit. Buying a model and then potentially buying a better replacement is something that I have done in the past. And there is the wider point that model railways are a hobby, everybody has their own ideas and sensitivity to accuracy. I have huge respect for those who go to great lengths in the search of accuracy but if people are really committed to that path then they should be modelling P4 (or HO) I think, given that the whole OO scale/gauge is an inherent compromise. And price is important, I respect Hornby's honesty in telling the market you can have fine scale models with all seperate details etc or you can have a cheaper model but you can't have both. On this board I feel most people would pay more but this board is not the model hobby and there are plenty of people that will happily accept some compromise on detail if it controls cost inflation. Where Hornby design clever is falling over is that it is delivering on the simplified models but not really the lower cost. Which is a very long winded way of saying that I am fully aware of some of the flaws in Heljan models, yes I would prefer they were perfect but in many cases it is Heljan or nothing or a kit (and for all their flaws Heljans offerings are way better than the overwhelming majority of kit built models) and despite all the complaints they're generally pretty good. On the running qualities I do think Heljan are outstanding.

[45609]

Personally I think the quiality issues that are there in British RTR are down to models being built down to a price. Hornby's ridiculous 'design clever' being a case in point. It seems mostly that companies draw up a CAD and if it's good then great and if it's not then that unfortunately it's what you get. There is a perception that modellers in this country will only pay so much for a loco and they also want gimicks like directional lighting included. This limits the money available to get the basic shape right which to me is the most important thing. It is supposed to be a model of something and so should look like it. It's not just a case of 'experts' picking holes in a loco trying to find the slightest fault, though there are some out there that do so. Anyone for example should be able to see that the roof profile on the Bachmann 24/5 is wrong. I shall look forward to Rapido Trains entry into the market which hopefully might shake things up a little and will be interested to see whether a certain member of this forum can actually deliver on his promises with his new range. Personally I'd much rather have one decent model that I don't have to spend time correcting errors on than half a dozen iffy products. This leaves more time for other things.

 

Justin

 

Hi Justin,

 

Some very good points well made and not just restricted to the Diesel/Electric models.  A recent posting of the CAD images for the O2/3 and O2/4 over on the LNER forum have highlighted just one of the issues you raise with the cab spectacle plate window.

 

http://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8013&p=93276#p93213

 

I have the belief that this mistake is nothing more than lack of research as it is pretty easy to establish from photos what is right if you look a bit closer.  Drawings are also available to view at the NRM if there is still any doubt but perhaps this now hinges on the cost aspects that you illude to. I'm hoping this will be put right but the comment has been made that the CAD models have been sent for preliminary tooling manufacture and we have to wait 6 months.  What disappoints me is that if I can tell what is right from a study of photos off the web then it isn't really that difficult to get it right is it?

 

It appears that my comments on this were misplaced for which I apologise.  New information, that has come to light on the LNER Forum thread, has also shown that Heljan and the persons involved with the development of the O2 design have been presented with a cab window dilemma that has been solved in the most intelligent way possible.

 

Morgan

[Jeff Smith]

OK, so now that the show is almost over how many products/announcements alluded to in the OP actually came to be?

 

As anyone who has read the whole thread will have seen my interest in in the Metro BoBo.....

[Butler Henderson]

Body shapes issues fall into two camps, the complete blunder like the existing 33/0s cab profile, and those, like the new Bachmann 40, which are neccesary to get the loco round 2nd radius curves at the change of gradient from level to a pretty steep incline. The RTR diesel we have had that did not cater for the latter was the FIA trains 10000.

[it's-er]

This thread seems to have descended into a critique of models already released by Heljan, rather adrift from the thread title of Heljan's Warley 2013 news.

 

mlgilbert30 at post 196 above has helpfully provided the link to the CAD/CAM for the Gresley O2s that were shown at Warley. Does anyone have any additional information about what Heljan displayed at Warley, or any photos of items on their stand?

 

John

[alfsboy]

Body shapes can be a can of worms (the forth this week LOL).i have made model car master patterns for my sins and indeed still do ,yup still sinning ,just slower .I am a shapes man .This means I,m too sloppy  and /or bored to make the fiddly bits .

Often if you copy the drawing ,even a proper works drawing it just doesnt look right .I have often just over emphasized a curve or two especially on top of the wings and maybe a wheel arch .I did this to the Lotus Elise and MGA coupe in 1.43 .The customers both manufacturers liked them a lot especially the MGA which they figured had finally captured its looks .Now days its much harder to slap on some extra jollop and carve it down .The scan may not see what the eye say it sees.Its OK if you have your own RP machine but if a subcontracter is involved it might mean a trip back and forth even to China .

[GoingUnderground]

If you're waiting for the Heljan Metrovic Bo-Bo then just pray that they don't make as big a mess of it as they did with Class 77/EM2. The picture of the loco on their stand didn't exactly fill me with confidence that they'd get it right. The release date is 2015 IIRC from their poster at Warley. A lot can happen in 2 years.

 

I have two Radley Models Bo-Bos so I won't be in the market for the Heljan one, or anybody else's version come to that, unless it is absolutely perfect.

 

Have they actually got the rights to use the London Transport name and the Metropolitan name and crest? Bachmann seem to be getting awfully close to the LT Museum. It wouldn't surprise me if they beat Heljan to the market with the MetroVic.

[railroadbill]

Sounds like you get some good  projects, alfsboy.  Been very interesting to hear about them. Some years ago had a conversation with a guy in engineering about a TV program concerning a company that made model cars. Their point was that the Jag mk 2 they were scaling down just didn't look right if too accurately shrunk, but was better when the styling lines of that vehicle were exaggerated, that being what the viewer's eye expected to see.

 

Like a police style mug shot  photo versus a carefully posed portrait which brings out the character of the person.