peter220950 Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) Oh yes oh yes oh yes Now have all six drivers and only two quarter at 90 degrees the other four are a choice of about 80 or 160 degrees ( AS DESCRIBED IN ISSUE 39 PAGE 155 INST 11 & 12 ) John Given that post 520 says:- 3 cylinders, so they are not supposed to quarter, they are at about 120 degrees. The parts are right, the instructions are at least misleading if not actually wrong, they could be a lot clearer. Could it just be that the wheels have got mixed up, you shouldn't be trying to get any to quarter at 90 degrees? Can they be mixed to get three sets that are at 120 degrees? Edit. Haven't got all mine yet so can't see the problem. Edited July 6, 2015 by peter220950 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ROSSPOP Posted July 6, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) I don't care what they should be set at as long as every axle is the same. You can't see both sides of a loco at the same time. Mine cannot be set up at all by mixing and matching as the central brass boss has been moulded to two differing standards. One wheel set is 90 degrees, the other two sets are two spokes less Edited July 6, 2015 by ROSSPOP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ROSSPOP Posted July 6, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 6, 2015 Piccys speak much clearer this set will only quarter at 90 degrees the other two axles will only set less than 90 degrees or greater than........ Niether are interchangeable so beware..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike47j Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 The wheels are a disaster. My axles are all at slightly different angles and so are the wheels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelpara Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Stop with the technical quartering and angles speak. Surely the coupling rods will connect to them all at a suitable level (ie coupling rod is flat) to do the job they need to do? I cannot seem to see a difference between them apart from different screw holder which is where he bit coming down from the cylinders would connect anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ROSSPOP Posted July 6, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) Modelpara With respect , if wheel crankpins are hugely out of alignment as in my case the coupling rods will only fit on one side of the loco. Fine for a static display perhaps..... John Edited July 6, 2015 by ROSSPOP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushrat Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) Hi Gents, Weighing in at 5am from Australia, I have to say that this is a most alarming situation. From what I read here, the main issue is not so much that the quartering is wrong, but that the wheel sets don't quarter at the same angles, is this correct? Has anyone compared the axles to make sure they are all the same? Are the actual wheels all the same? I can see from the photos that the wheels shown have the centre hub in a different position from each other, so the conclusion could only be that either: A: There should have been two different sets of three wheels, one set for the left and one set for the right, and there has been a packing error, and no instructions for this. or B: The wheels are suffering from faulty manufacture, during which the hub has been placed in the wrong position during the moulding process. or C: The above may also apply to the axles There were problems with Scotsman when I built it, including things like footplate length, and they were NEVER addressed to my knowledge, and we had to fudge around it, but this is more than a niggling issue, as Rosspop says, fine for a static model, because if all the wheels are like this the conrods and running gear likely wont fit, and if they do they probably wont allow the wheels to turn, they will simply bind up and lock! I will have a look later at Scotsman, and also compare the spare set of drivers and axles I picked up on Ebay and see if there was anything like this with those, but I don't think there was any issue with them - we will see..... Bit difficult for me to start emailing Hachette for answers, as we are only up to part 17 here in Oz, and I don't have the parts at hand to fiddle, but maybe a few emails to them from you chaps over there may get some answers. Wont it be interesting if they have mixed up the wheels and some have got 4 lefts and 2 rights? Wonder what they will do about THAT one!........ If anyone can scan and post the quartering instructions, I would be interested in having a read of them. Bushrat Edited July 6, 2015 by bushrat Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Piccys speak much clearer DSC02232.JPG this set will only quarter at 90 degrees DSC02235.JPG the other two axles will only set less than 90 degrees DSC02237.JPG or greater than........ Niether are interchangeable so beware..... looking at the first set of wheels these look to be set at 90 Degs. as is normal as on a two or four cylinder loco. In your second photo this is set at too small an angle, this is not correct for a three cylinder loco. In your third photo this looks correct for a three cylinder loco. It could be that you have received an axle for the bogie, trailing or tender wheel sets in mistake. It's also a bit hard to tell as you have the Alan screw in place in two of your photos, to see if its the axle or wheel at fault? Then we would also need to see both ends of the same axle in the same wheel set. Stop with the technical quartering and angles speak. Surely the coupling rods will connect to them all at a suitable level (ie coupling rod is flat) to do the job they need to do? I cannot seem to see a difference between them apart from different screw holder which is where he bit coming down from the cylinders would connect anyway. When it comes to wheel quartering, you have to speak as if the wheels on the other side don't match, the loco will not run. If you have the wheels quartered at 60 Degs. on the front axle then the next set at 90 Degs. then the next set at 120 Degs. How could that work. What you have to look at is the relationship between the front wheel (L/H side) and the rear wheel (R/H side) to understand the issues with the quartering. OzzyO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 30801 Posted July 6, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 6, 2015 B: The wheels are suffering from faulty manufacture, during which the hub has been placed in the wrong position during the moulding process. If anyone can scan and post the quartering instructions, I would be interested in having a read of them. Faulty manufacture and then some! Looking at my wheels each one appears to be quartered at its own unique angle. I can't attach a picture big enough to show all of them in detail Mmmm. Quality machining. I haven't bothered to attach the quartering instructuions, but they're basically that. Quartering. They tell you to put one crank forward and the other up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Faulty manufacture and then some! Looking at my wheels each one appears to be quartered at its own unique angle. I can't attach a picture big enough to show all of them in detail Scan 3.jpeg Mmmm. Quality machining. Scan 7.jpeg I haven't bothered to attach the quartering instructuions, but they're basically that. Quartering. They tell you to put one crank forward and the other up. Having looked at the wheel in this post, I'm starting to think, did the Chinese have a think about making the wheels and changing the position of the inserts but not bother about the axles, ie keep them at 90 degs.. All in all it just sound like sh1t Q.C. I'm also looking at your axle as the one on the right looks to be set at an angle that "could" give the 120 Deg.? but if the wheel centres are all over the place what chance do you have! OzzyO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushrat Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 I can begin to see the problem from these photos! Surely it would have only been a matter of making the wheels OR the axle to a correct quartering design, but it looks to my untrained eye that they might have done BOTH, ie. wheels and axles both unique. The axles are completely different to Scotsman, which had both machined ends at the same angle/position. Now, if they have done BOTH, and you then have a left and right wheel, PLUS a left and right end to each axle, then lads we have a BIG PROBLEM! I come back to my original thought as before, that these parts may have been packed incorrectly and out of sequence so you all got a dogs breakfast mix of left and right wheels. Is the offset angle the same on each axle end or do they differ? Also the wheels and centre hubs seem to have a very rough finish, again nothing like Scotsman, to me that kind of finish would be grounds to return them for replacement, even the plastic on the spokes looks rough to me, certainly not worthy to put on a model given the amount of money and work going into the rest of the project.... I reckon I will be putting my spare Scotty wheels and axles on mine and to hell with the quartering! A damn nuisance when they do stuff like this! Photos below are Scotsman wheels and axles - all I am able to compare with, but note the axle ends are all at the same angle - and this was ALL axles for the entire model - and ALL the driving wheels had the same centre hub location. Dunno what this tells us apart from the fact that something is a bit off ....... Bushrat Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 30801 Posted July 7, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 7, 2015 Having looked at the wheel in this post, I'm starting to think, did the Chinese have a think about making the wheels and changing the position of the inserts but not bother about the axles, ie keep them at 90 degs.. All in all it just sound like sh1t Q.C. I think it's a failure of specification. The axles have flats machined onto the ends like someone asked for. They just forgot to specify how they should be machined in relation to the other end. Likewise the brass centres are at least moulded in the centre but it looks like the tooling involved dropping them onto a round spindle with no regard to angle. To make things clear: Each of my three axles is machined to a different angle. Each of my six wheels has the brass centre at a different angle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ROSSPOP Posted July 7, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 7, 2015 (edited) Thanks OzzyO, Bushrat and 30801I could`nt sleep having read all your posts!!! So up with me torch!!!Basically the bad news is they are S$*%T wheels with the centre boss quartering to the old HOng KOng standard.The good news is that by swapping about I got all three wheel sets to `quarter` at, I assume, to be 120degreesOzzyo...is this correct for a 3 cylinder loco?????I knew I should`nt have strayed from the one true faith........GWR.......!!!!So at least I have a working set Edited July 7, 2015 by ROSSPOP 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ROSSPOP Posted July 7, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 7, 2015 I would like to know from anyone with a set of Slaters replacements, what `quartering` they are set for..................????? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushrat Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 (edited) Strewth! What a $&%$ mess! They may LOOK to be quartered Ross, but I really have to wonder what is going to happen when the coupling rods and valve gear are fitted up. Are they going to work or simply bind up or worse, bend, snap or stress what are fairly fragile valve gear parts and thus ruin them. They would only have to be a couple of hairs out to cause a problem. Will Hachette make good on any damage? I would try to email them, but from past experience (regarding the sloppy fit of the axles on some of the Scotsman wheels) I suspect that the reply will be something like "how would you be having a problem, you haven't got those parts yet" which I suppose is a fair enough comment to expect...... So I suppose that it is up to you chaps that have the parts at this stage to stir things up a bit at Hachette, and find out what is going on. The questions I would be asking of them are these: 1: Are these wheels in fact correctly made to specifications, given that the centres are all in different locations? 2: Are the axles supposed to be like this, with different end angles? 3: If these parts are correct, could you supply an individual wheel and axle identification sheet, and correct instructions as a matter of urgency with the next issue? 4: If these parts are NOT correct, what is going to be done to rectify the problem, and WHEN? - Nobody is going to want to be waiting too long for replacements, or receive them one at a time over several issues and get totally out of whack with the assembly sequence. 5: The final question I would ask is this - these wheels seem to have a thinner spoke than the Scotsman wheels did, I may be wrong about this, the old eyes aren't the best anymore, but compare the pics of the Scotsman wheels I posted with the Mallard pics that you chaps have been putting up and you may see what I mean. Now my concern is this; Mallard is heavier than Scotsman, a LOT heavier, will these wheels support the weight of an all metal model that is sitting on a display shelf or layout for an extended period, or will the weight start to deform the spokes and allow the wheels to collapse as it were, especially in hot weather as the plastic softens. I may be tending to worry needlessly, but IF there is a problem with these wheels, we all need to know before we go much further with assembly ..... I just wish there was something else I could do from this end, but without the parts to examine it is impossible, anyway, that's my two bobs worth, hopefully we will get some answers... Bushrat Edited July 7, 2015 by bushrat Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ROSSPOP Posted July 7, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 7, 2015 Unfprtunately Hachette have made the wheels on the cheap , which is a pity as I have been very pleased with the majority of parts. I shall order the `wheel` replacement issues and see if I can cobble together a set with `decent quartering ` Hachette ,in my view, will avoid starting again with wheel manufacturing. This kit was only ever destined to run on a short length of track for a `novice loco builder` I wish mine to be the same running quality as the rest of my kit built stock which will now definitely mean purchasing a set from Slaters. Even if you manage to succeed in getting an accurate quartered set from Hachette you will be left with the other problem of them working loose, as the screw threads are also poor and there is much too much slop in the fit............ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike47j Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 I've got 7 wheels and 4 axles and the best I can do is to make a set at about 85, 90 and 100 degrees. The wheels are such a sloppy fit on the axle that it may almost work. I assume £60 of slaters wheels will come with the standard 90 degree axles, and the 120 degree ones would be £15.10 extra. Most of the kit seems to be to a very good standard, just a few small things letting it down, eg the water gauges, until now. So I hope they send us a new set of wheels and axles that are right. The advert show the loco running, and they sell a motor, so they must make it work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushrat Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 (edited) Yes Mike, I agree with what you and Ross say, a set of Slaters wheels may well be the answer. And yes, the general quality of the kit has been ok so far (only up to #17 here), and the biggest job I have had to do was "adjust" the length of the nose section as it was a bit longer on one side - that's why the gap in the side skirts I suspect..... anyhow it seems to have fixed mine up at the expense of about a millimetre in length! The problem is that there is a big difference, in my view at least, between a bit of fettling and parts that are just badly made - like the water gauges, as you mentioned. They weren't any better on Scotsman, and you would think that small detail parts like this could have been better made of a plastic, since they are "internal" and not going to be exposed to any handling. Also its a hell of a lot easier and safer to drill a .05mm hole in a plastic part without wrecking it or taking out a finger than in a soft white metal casting! But when you have a major OPERATING component like wheels that would seem to be a problem, it leaves a rather nasty taste in ones mouth I'm afraid, and in my humble opinion, they have a moral obligation to their customers, (us) to make it right. Whether it is the parts or insufficient clear instructions. When I get my wheels and axles, and if I find they are wrong, which they almost certainly will be from what has been said here, I will be whinging my whatsits off at them, buying a set of slaters and sending them a bill for the cost. And as far as the model being designed to run on a metre length of track, yes, we went through that as well, and as a result some parts were re-supplied in later issues (Rocker arms - were originally white metal and got replaced with sturdier ones, made from a nickel silver type metal). So don't be backward in contacting them and having a good venting of the spleen, if enough of us do it, something should be done! At the end of the day, it may be a partwork, but we are in fact paying more than an off the shelf kit from DJH for it, so it needs to be at least 90% as good as what else is on offer I reckon! In Australia, we have a law that says that goods have to be of merchantable quality and fit for purpose, I don't know about the U.K. but I would suspect that its the same there. In short, we have undertaken this project in good faith, and they have to hold up their end of the bargain if there is a problem. In real terms, if they refunded the cost of the issues with faulty parts, that would nearly pay, I would think for the replacement wheels. And they may think more seriously about quality control for the next project as well...... Also, a word of cautionary advice about the wheels - Again harking back to the Scotsman experience, I found to my sorrow, that the crank pins that go through the wheels had a tendency to turn, even if countersunk in and secured with epoxy, and that meant that the top rocker assembly wouldn't stay in the right position. Now this doesn't affect the running, but its, well, just not RIGHT... Too late to do anything with mine by the time I discovered it, but what I will do with this one is simply this: Before fitting the crank pin and top hat assemblies, I will take a bit of brass wire offcut, and solder it into the screw head. I will then put this in place and QUICKLY apply heat to this as I push it into the back of the wheel, thus melting it in - gotta be careful but I think it will work ok. This will give the crank pin some "bite" once the top-hat etc. are on and SHOULD stop it from turning. Super glue was suggested as a fix on the F/S forum but we all know what happens to super glue with time and oil - it held for all of 5 minutes! I don't know if the original F/S forum is still up, but for those of you who didn't build Scotsman, I would strongly suggest that if it is, it would be well worth taking an hour or so and reading through it, there were some really brilliant solutions found to many of the problems.... Bushrat Edited July 7, 2015 by bushrat Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Peter Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Managed to get the wheels @120 degrees--Look at the 3 axles 2 are different, they are the "leading and trailing, the other is the centre drive hope this clears things up---Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushrat Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 (edited) So you reckon it's more of an instructional problem that a manufacturing problem? I am trying hard to visualise what you mean, if the leading and trailing wheels and axles are different to the centre drivers and axles, wont that throw everything out of whack? Especially when the time comes to add the conrods and valve gear? It's really going to be a pity if this so far nice model is let down by something like this, as it has been up to now, such a big improvement on Scotsman as far as quality goes! Bushrat Edited July 7, 2015 by bushrat Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ROSSPOP Posted July 7, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 7, 2015 (edited) I think your quite right Bushrat It`s never been rocket science to get a sweet running chassis in any gauge. A wise old codger long ago told me to always start a loco kit with the coupling rods and use these as the main datum to line up the axles....bushes/hornblocks accurately in relation to the loco frames which will then transfer to the wheel crankpins , by using a simple jig.......... which of course need to be ` quartered` axactly the same as each other. therefore if you can get these inferior quality wheels to `quarter` at either 90 degrees or perhaps 120 degrees ( and stay in that setting) you will be fine....... SIMPLES.............. Edited July 7, 2015 by ROSSPOP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 30801 Posted July 7, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 7, 2015 Maybe we could crowd-quarter? Everyone combines their random wheels and axles and we sort them into sets that happen to quarter OK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushrat Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Yep, that's just about what I am trying to say in my rambling and over verbose way - it's got to be RIGHT or it's not going to work! Sorry, I tend to write too much when I am in pain, (couple of busted ribs), and go into far too much detail, but yes, that's it in a nutshell. We have to remember that with these kits we are in many respects working backwards in an illogical assembly sequence, and anything that is likely to affect the basic operation later has to be right, otherwise ......... oops, calamity! I was surprised at the parts supply and sequence which followed logic, and did almost the complete body - footplate - cab was supplied the way it was. Made it fairly easy, but I suppose a lot just got the first issues for the basics and then pulled out and used other bits or scratchbuilt. That's what I originally intended to do, but frankly, the quality of the first issues impressed me, and I am not easily impressed, so I am going with it for a bit longer. I must confess though, that this wheel business concerns me, and it needs to be established whether it is a manufacturing problem or an instructional one, hopefully someone from Hachette will clarify this for somebody at some point.... By the way, that is a really NICE chassis, what is it, an A3? Bushrat Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike47j Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Just get a reply about the bogie pivot, these parts will be in issue 57. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike47j Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Just got a rubbish reply about the wheels telling me to make the holes in the body bigger ? I think the reply may be about fitting the buffers ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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