Washout at Dawlish

[Stoke West]

39 minutes ago, Pete Haitch said:

 

All around the UK, older sea defences, coastal roads and coastal railways are being reviewed and risk assessed against rising sea levels due to global warming and changing weather patterns. The Thames barrier and associated downstream defences were only completed in 1982/83 yet desperately need their height raising to prevent a more serious overtopping than has already occurred.  The likelihood, and impact, of storm damage is greater today than when IKB was wandering around South Devon. 

 

There is a separate thread ongoing re the reopening of Okehampton - Tavistock, here: 

 

Pete.

 

Tavistock - Breakfast in Bob's and year-round Christmas cake and mince pudding in Karen's.

 

There were several sea wall breaches nearer the line opening than now at Parsons tunnel and between Dawlish and The Warren that i know of and i think one in the 20th century . I suspect there wern't more due to the dedicated sea wall maintenance gangs , doing unimportant jobs like making sure the drainage flows were clear !

[Pete Haitch]

My family have live around the coast from Plymouth to Portland for the last 800 years - my mother lived a while in Teignmouth whilst my sister still lives in Dawlish.  As a child I would listen in awe to tales told by a great uncle who had spent his life fishing off Chesil Bank - rowing heavy clinker built boats. He would talk about every great storm that had occurred in his lifetime, as well as those from earlier times he had been told about himself. This included stories of shipwrecks where a westerly had driven a vessel to founder in Chiswell; and easterlies that would that create a raging whirlpool in the middle of Lyme Bay.  I so wish I'd had a tape recorder.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Pete Haitch

[The Stationmaster]

On 19/10/2023 at 18:04, IWCR said:

Trains  in  Cornwall  total  shambles  yesterday  due  to  Dawlish,  as  far  as  I  know  track  etc  still  ok  but  many  trains  cancelled  and / or  long  delays.  Waited  an  hour  +  at  Par  for  a  westbound  train,  passengers  eastbound  were  stood  a  lot  longer  when  a  Paddington  train  terminated  there  and  turfed  everyone  out,  station  staff  absent  (or  hiding)  toilets  locked  up.  Several  people  tried  using  the  help  point  which  seemed  to  link  with  a  chinese  call  centre  who  knew  nothing.  2  trains  u/s  with  sea  water  damage. 

Today  most;ly  OK  but  some  cancelled  due  to  the  sets  lost.

How  often  does  this  happen?,  just  about  every  passenger  will  qualify  for  full  refunds,  many  of  these  being  long  diistance  hence  losses  must  be  very  high..

More  than  a  few  days  a  year  like  this  would  make  reopening  the. Tavistock  route  more  attractive,  not  as  a  Dawlish  Relacement,  but  as  an  alternaative  when  times  are  difficult  and  some  stock .is  to  vunerable.

 

Pete

But by Saturday it wasn't much to  do with Dawlish - some delays and all XC trains cancelled.  Cancellations in Cornwall, by then - apart from any XC trains - appear to be totally unrelated to anything at Dawlish. so the route was quickly back after a bit of disorder for a day or two  Real Time Trains shows only two non-XC cancellations of passenger trains in Cornwall for the whole of Saturday and they were due to set/traincrew out of balance problems.  So a line round teh northe of Dartmoor wouldn't be doing anything

 

Building a railway round Dartmoor wouldn't do anything to solve the (long standing) XC problem in that sort of weather( and in any case the trains would probably have to be terminated at Plymouth in order to make their return balances.   And if Exeter - Okehampton - Plymouth had been there, and assuming that it wasn't affected by the weather, it wouldn't have achieved very much for the umpteen millions spent to build it and  continuing to be spent providing trains for Driver refresher knowledge etc.  And will  it ever happen after the millions  that have been spent at Dawlsh and along the coastal stretch?

 

The re-opened railway to Tavistock has been on the cards for so long I still wonder if I'll ever see it and when it does happen it'll more likely to be a result of pork-barrel style political promises than anything else.  So is the Torridge & West Devon Commons seat so insecure that the present Govt will promise a re-opened railway to Tavistock in the coming 6-10 months?

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[Ian Hargrave]

22 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Won't have been mush to do with Dawlish - some delays and all (by a quick check) XC trains cancelled.  Cancellations in Cornwall, apart from any XC trains - appear to be otally unrelated to anything at Dawlish with the possible exception of reaction to one delay (which in turn could be due to something else).  

 

Real Time Trains shows only two non-XC cancellations of passenger trains in Cornwall for the whole of yesterday (Saturday) and they were due to set/traincrew out of balance problems.  But late running was building up in the afternoon and got gradually worse as is often the case witha service like that   Building a railway round Dartmoor wouldn't do anything to solve the (ling standing) XC probem in that sort of weather and in any case the trains would probabky have had ot be terminated at Plymouth in order to make their return balances.

 

 

XC have run into difficulties further north with flooding between Derby and Sheffield closing the line apart from the ECML problem. I think there have been some diversions over the Erewash Valley but in general Derbyshire is a mess

[Pete Haitch]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

So is the Torridge & West Devon Commons seat so insecure that the present Govt will promise a re-opened railway to Tavistock in the coming 6-10 months?

Quite possibly yes - if they hold the seat and are in government , worry about it then. If they hold the seat and are not in government, they can blame who ever is for not building the line. If Simon Hobson wins the seat and the line is not built they can, however illogical, blame him, all cyclists, all environmentalists, all rail supporters and all Liberal Democrats.

 

Given the state of the opinion polls, promising to build the line now is a low political risk strategy that lays a few booby traps for the other parties come the 2029 (ish) general election.  Even if they did end up building it - how much will it harm them? Who cares now about why the Humber Bridge or Gordon Brown's aircraft carriers were built - if any major fallout they can blame Sunak and, if he's not already history, histrify him.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Pete Haitch

[Pete Haitch]

If World War 2 had not intervened, the GW itself may have provided a solution to the 'Dawlish' problem, as shown in this blog.

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Pete Haitch said:

If World War 2 had not intervened, the GW itself may have provided a solution to the 'Dawlish' problem, as shown in this blog.

 

 

 

AIUI, much of the route is now underneath housing developments, with more disappearing every year, and the land would cost eye-watering sums to re-acquire if the plan were to be revived.

 

John 

[Not Jeremy]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

AIUI, much of the route is now underneath housing developments, with more disappearing every year, and the land would cost eye-watering sums to re-acquire if the plan were to be revived.

 

John 

 

And of course it wouldn't have served or serve Tavistock, North Cornwall or Okehampton, all available right now for a much cheaper price on the route that shall not be named....(!)

[Pete Haitch]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

AIUI, much of the route is now underneath housing developments, with more disappearing every year, and the land would cost eye-watering sums to re-acquire if the plan were to be revived.

 

John 

And would involve knocking down my brother's home in Bishopsteignton! 

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, Not Jeremy said:

 

And of course it wouldn't have served or serve Tavistock, North Cornwall or Okehampton, all available right now for a much cheaper price on the route that shall not be named....(!)

 

Probably more to the point, is that it would bypass the far more populous areas of Torbay and the South Hams. 

 

[Oldddudders]

12 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Probably more to the point, is that it would bypass the far more populous areas of Torbay and the South Hams. 

 

From the former of which which there are substantial year-round flows to Exeter, and to a lesser extent Plymouth, as well as considerable scholar/student traffic throughout the route from Dawlish to Paignton, as well as to Exeter. 

[corneliuslundie]

On 19/10/2023 at 20:31, Dunsignalling said:

It's a transport facility not a mobile viewing platform.

And 99% of those on board will be looking at their phones or laptops anyway and not out the window.

Jonathan

[Mallard60022]

15 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

And 99% of those on board will be looking at their phones or laptops anyway and not out the window.

Jonathan

You'd be surprised, especially with the regular Summer excursions each weekend to Paignton. It's one of the selling points for travellers.

Phi

[eastwestdivide]

19 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

And 99% of those on board will be looking at their phones or laptops anyway and not out the window.

Jonathan

I once waved to catch the attention of some (Japanese?) tourists glued to their phones in the seats opposite, then pointed out of the window and got a proper comedy double-take!  

[Dunsignalling]

6 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

You'd be surprised, especially with the regular Summer excursions each weekend to Paignton. It's one of the selling points for travellers.

Phi

The last few times I've been along there, I have been part of a very small minority in taking in the passing scene.

 

Most were intent on passing the time in their little electronic cocoon of personal entertainment or interaction with travelling companions.

 

Many people seem to have turned in on themselves during the pandemic and haven't yet fully found their way back out....

 

John 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Ramblin Rich]

On 24/10/2023 at 20:35, Dunsignalling said:

 

Probably more to the point, is that it would bypass the far more populous areas of Torbay and the South Hams. 

 

We're mixing routes a bit. 1930s Dawlish avoiding route would rejoin at Newton Abbot and so, would still have served Torbay etc. North Dartmoor route via Okehampton and Tavistock would not.

[Dunsignalling]

4 minutes ago, Ramblin Rich said:

We're mixing routes a bit. 1930s Dawlish avoiding route would rejoin at Newton Abbot and so, would still have served Torbay etc. North Dartmoor route via Okehampton and Tavistock would not.

True, but I think that scheme would be extremely difficult to revive today without a lot of compulsory purchase and demolition or additional tunnelling.

 

Having built such a route at great expense, there would then be an imperative for it to be seen to pay its way, and not just in times of emergency. 

 

That, in turn, would drive calls for cost saving on the coastal route, ideally whilst also increasing its resilience for Dawlish/Teignmouth local traffic that cannot be diverted. Singling, over the present up line which already has bi-directional signalling, would undoubtedly be on the cards. 

 

John

[The Stationmaster]

22 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

True, but I think that scheme would be extremely difficult to revive today without a lot of compulsory purchase and demolition or additional tunnelling.

 

Having built such a route at great expense, there would then be an imperative for it to be seen to pay its way, and not just in times of emergency. 

 

That, in turn, would drive calls for cost saving on the coastal route, ideally whilst also increasing its resilience for Dawlish/Teignmouth local traffic that cannot be diverted. Singling, over the present up line which already has bi-directional signalling, would undoubtedly be on the cards. 

 

John

The inland route would basically take teh Exeter - Newton non-stop services although it might possibly have a  'Teignlish' parkway style station.  The coastal route would retain the stoppers with no chance of closure but certainly some infrastructure reduction.  So costs would increase but there would also be the expected positive  revenue impact of shortened journey times  too Plymouth and beyond and in the opposite direction.

[RFS]

Wild weather on the Dawlish Youtube cam tonight ....

[Gwiwer]

33 minutes ago, RFS said:

Wild weather on the Dawlish Youtube cam tonight ....

Ciaran is blowing from the NW so Dawlish, while choppy, is relatively sheltered.  Babet was from the SE with the  weather blowing directly on-shore against the sea wall.

[corneliuslundie]

The railway seems to be standing up well, and an IET passed when I was watching.

But water got under the bridge as far as the pavement on one occasion.

Jonathan

[woodenhead]

 

[MidlandRed]

13 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

The railway seems to be standing up well, and an IET passed when I was watching.

But water got under the bridge as far as the pavement on one occasion.

Jonathan

It actually washed over the whole width of the road two or three times, depositing a lot of stones. The You Tube film in the next post by @woodenhead shows this towards the end. 

[Gwiwer]

That video clip shows a number of things:

 

1. The wave-return sea-wall is doing exactly what it was designed to do - returning waves out to sea

2. Much less sea water is getting onto the railway and the coastal footpath

3. A Vomiter was allowed through at the height of the storm

 

What it does not show is that once again the supposedly "Dawlish-proof" IETs failed to get through reliably and at least two sat down with sea-water incursion.  And the intrusion of sea-water via the underpass into the town which is a nuisance but on a lesser scale that previous flooding.

 

The length of the sea wall footpath between Teignmouth and Dawlish Warren has been closed for safety checks as some areas of damage have been identified; I am assured these do not affect the railway.

[Mike_Walker]

In his weekly staff address this week Mark Hopwood related that he was going to dig out the 2016 paperwork from Hitachi where they gave assurances the IET would be, in his words, 'seaworthy'. They're not.