The Official Rapido APT-E Thread

[Mr_Tilt]

Quite agree. I work in IT and had a nasty moment the day a JCB put its shovel through the main telephone data cable in the town where I worked, That had over 20,000 cores and it took them only a couple of days to fix them all!

 

But they probably had drawings and wiring schematics, plus the extra cable and joints and lots of guys to do it, not to mention a certain amount of money too.

 

We haven't got ANY of the above..............

[43078shildoncountydurham]

Hi all,

 

I sent an email to Sandra, mine was ready to collect at Shildon so I called in this afternoon, not had the model completely out its box yet but it does look very, very good indeed, a big thank you to all involved and a bigger thank you to Sandra...

 

Now, how do we order 2x prototype hst power cars and 7x trailers?

 

Regards

 

Craig

[russ p]

A VERY good question!

 

There's a fairly complex plug and socket area under the floor of all four vehicles, near the point where the Steering Beam ball joint attaches, but it takes an age to get into it, especially on the Trailer Cars, and I presume there was a time factor involved in the contract to move the train to Shildon.

 

The NRM didn't contact Paul Leadley to help out with the move until after the odd disaster had already taken place, like de-railing TC2 in the Yard while trying to move it too fast with the handling dollies! Paul phoned me and I gave myself 3 weeks leave (Being the Department Manager was rather handy....  ) and I high-tailed it up to York. But by the time we got involved the damage to the cables had already been done.

 

Then there was the issue of the tilt jacks on PC1. The 3 car set had been moved to a new position in the Yard and Paul and I had carefully un-bolted much of the suspension linkages to enable us to dis-connect the Power Cars from TC1 the next morning. To make sure there were no potential accidents we put labels on various bits and pieces saying 'DO NOT REMOVE THESE BOLTS!'.

 

When we arrived back at the NRM the next morning the train looked like this........

 

 

..... and two of the fitters were complaining that '......the ruddy thing fell over on us!' Needless to say they'd totally ignored our signs and removed the aforementioned bolts! 

 

A classic case of people without the required knowledge getting involved in things they really shouldn't.

 

This where the NRM is all wrong,cutting through those cables because it would take too long to do it properly is like cutting through flying Scotsman's firebox to uncouple it from its tender!

No wonder people get the arse with them

[russ p]

Incidentally APT-E is just as important historically as flying Scotsman as as the A1 was first to exceed 100mph APT-E was the first to exceed 150mph in Britain

[Titan]

Got my non-sound version yesterday. Ran for the first time tonight and it is absolutely superb. The detail and fidelity have to be seen to be believed, and it ran quite smoothly out of the box. No doubt it will improve with time.

 

Some minor issues - the back to back of leading wheelset of PC1 was too wide. However the very clear exploded diagram showed me the detail I needed to put a screwdriver in just the right place to lever off the the retainer of the bogie safely without leaving a scratch, and then removal of the wheelset was easy. A squeeze up on a back to back gauge had it sorted and it was replaced and she ran beautifully.

 

Electrical connection between the two trailer cars was a little stiff. This made it somewhat awkward to couple. I was at first worried that some of the pins might not be aligned. I checked and checked again and all pins seemed straight and true.  Followed the instructions on coupling to the letter and did manage to get them mechanically coupled but the electrical connector was not fully home. Lifted the car back up to 10 degrees again and the electrical connection clicked in. I expect this will get better in time as I believe the connections will loosen up slightly.

 

Slight scratching on two of the joint modules. This looks like it was due to them all being packaged together and they must have rubbed on each other during transit. The rest of the packaging was superb.

 

The book, the manual and the exploded diagrams are excellent. 

 

This is an outstanding model, it just oozes quality and finesse. Feels like I have bought a Rolls Royce  for the price of a Jaguar!!!

Edited April 23, 2016 by Titan

[darrel]

I wish I had ordered one.

[multivac]

I have no trust in the NRM to care for the exhibits since many years ago reading that someone cleaned the bright work on 1000 with a few strips of rough emery paper causing scratches. The NRM is up to their usual trick in damaging an exhibit; the APT-E in this instant. I could see the National Gallery cutting a painting out of it's frame and rolling it up to transport it. If you don't know how to clean or move something without damaging it forget the ego for a second and find some who does. Someone should get a big bill to repair the damage it is public property after all and should be cared for.

 

As for the 'Flying Scotsman' costing 4m to restore that is shocking and there should be an investigation.

As for proper funding for the NRM could not a trust be set up to amass funds.

[Pete the Elaner]

Incidentally APT-E is just as important historically as flying Scotsman as as the A1 was first to exceed 100mph APT-E was the first to exceed 150mph in Britain

That depends on who you believe.

I think Scotsman's significance is blown way out of proportion. & the claims it is the 'most famous' - Rubbish. Rocket & Mallard are more famous. Rightly so too. Scotsman is only 'famous' because LNER's publicity team hyped it up. Does anyone remember what happened with the LNER/GWR loco swap in the 1920's. The GWR wanted to overhaul it because by their standards, it was worn out! They were shocked when the LNER told them it had only just been done.

 

City of Truro has just as much claim to being the first 100mph loco. There are just as many reports of the Scotsman's achievement of this feat being exaggerated.

Before it was preserved, the only thing historically significant about Flying Scotsman was its name.

 

APT-E on the other hand pioneered hydrokinetic braking, used some new wheel technology (which is publicly the least well understood but often regarded as most important development) & of course tilting.

The knowledge gained from the last 2 is still being used today.

[micklner]

That depends on who you believe.

I think Scotsman's significance is blown way out of proportion. & the claims it is the 'most famous' - Rubbish. Rocket & Mallard are more famous. Rightly so too. Scotsman is only 'famous' because LNER's publicity team hyped it up. Does anyone remember what happened with the LNER/GWR loco swap in the 1920's. The GWR wanted to overhaul it because by their standards, it was worn out! They were shocked when the LNER told them it had only just been done.

 

City of Truro has just as much claim to being the first 100mph loco. There are just as many reports of the Scotsman's achievement of this feat being exaggerated.

Before it was preserved, the only thing historically significant about Flying Scotsman was its name.

 

APT-E on the other hand pioneered hydrokinetic braking, used some new wheel technology (which is publicly the least well understood but often regarded as most important development) & of course tilting.

The knowledge gained from the last 2 is still being used today.

 

One good thing as a result of all the hype, she survived and runs again (at a ludicrous cost). 

[Guest]

I have no trust in the NRM to care for the exhibits since many years ago reading that someone cleaned the bright work on 1000 with a few strips of rough emery paper causing scratches. 

 

Likewise the Elgin marbles were 'restored' with a heavy rub down with sandpaper because some dude decided they should be shiny white. Despite the fact they were originally painted.

What colour? Who knows? Some dude sanded it all off.

[Colin_McLeod]

Perhaps some dude had painted them!!

[BruceV]

Has anyone else come across this problem on their sound version? 

 

Start up sequence

 

F7 Start Dale diesel generator

F14 Start Tilt pumps

F1 Start 1st Turbine and allow to spin up

F10 Start 2nd Turbine and allow to spin up

 

Up to this point the horns work correctly.

 

F11 Start 3rd Turbine and allow to spin up

 

I find that pressing either F2, F3 or F4 the horns have ceased to work but when I press F7 and shut down the Dale diesel generator and it has stopped running the horns sound again.   Interestingly if I use the start up sequence as if the APT-E was on a shore supply and not start the Dale diesel generator the horns behave correctly.   But as soon as I start the the Dale diesel generator the horns cease to function.   It does not make any difference if I just have PC1 on the track or the complete train.

[Sir Hadyn]

I have no trust in the NRM to care for the exhibits since many years ago reading that someone cleaned the bright work on 1000 with a few strips of rough emery paper causing scratches. The NRM is up to their usual trick in damaging an exhibit; the APT-E in this instant. I could see the National Gallery cutting a painting out of it's frame and rolling it up to transport it. If you don't know how to clean or move something without damaging it forget the ego for a second and find some who does. Someone should get a big bill to repair the damage it is public property after all and should be cared for.

 

As for the 'Flying Scotsman' costing 4m to restore that is shocking and there should be an investigation.

As for proper funding for the NRM could not a trust be set up to amass funds.

I rather think you will find things have changed since then...

[Phil Parker]

I have no trust in the NRM to care for the exhibits since many years ago reading that someone cleaned the bright work on 1000 with a few strips of rough emery paper causing scratches. The NRM is up to their usual trick in damaging an exhibit; the APT-E in this instant. I could see the National Gallery cutting a painting out of it's frame and rolling it up to transport it. If you don't know how to clean or move something without damaging it forget the ego for a second and find some who does. Someone should get a big bill to repair the damage it is public property after all and should be cared for.

 

As for the 'Flying Scotsman' costing 4m to restore that is shocking and there should be an investigation.

As for proper funding for the NRM could not a trust be set up to amass funds.

 

APT-E might be public property but what would have happened if the NRM had said "We don't have the money or skills to look after that, take it away" when it was sent in their direction? As someone commented earlier, most museums have far more exhibits than they can look after. Turning them away however means they are probably lost for good.

 

Most preserved railways already have too much stock, you can see it dumped by the side of the tracks falling apart. Even if one of them had offered APT-E a home, it would have been a long way behind scores of MK1 coaches as a never to run train. Can you name a preserved railway that could have put it indoors even now? APT-P isn't looking too pretty and that's had a repaint within the last few years.

 

Flying Scotsman - an expensive investigation is an excellent idea. Let's stop restoring stuff and spend the cash on lawyers.

 

No point in crying over spilt milk. FS won't need restoring again for a long while and I bet it's already generated more publicity value (using standard industry marketing measures) than the cost of the work. APT-E now has an indoor home. We have an excellent model of it too, something that would be a lot less likely if there wasn't NRM involvement.

[russ p]

The problem with the NRM is there doesn't seem to be any consistency with their standards. At one point they didn't want Oliver Cromwell painting, become the paint that was on was done by BR. They didn't want D200,when it was restored they did! The prototype mk2 was left to rot until the mid Norfolk took it, yet their core collection of coaching stock is mainly one off special vehicles that are not representative of the stock on the railways of the UK at any given time.

Basically if you were from another country and knew nothing about railways you'd think that in the past we all rode about in total oppulance pulled by highly polished brass and copper destined locomotives until 1968 when....... Well they don't really say what we did

[Sir Hadyn]

The problem with the NRM is there doesn't seem to be any consistency with their standards. At one point they didn't want Oliver Cromwell painting, become the paint that was on was done by BR. They didn't want D200,when it was restored they did! The prototype mk2 was left to rot until the mid Norfolk took it, yet their core collection of coaching stock is mainly one off special vehicles that are not representative of the stock on the railways of the UK at any given time.

Basically if you were from another country and knew nothing about railways you'd think that in the past we all rode about in total oppulance pulled by highly polished brass and copper destined locomotives until 1968 when....... Well they don't really say what we did

Really? Come and have a cuppa with me sometime...don't judge the present by what happened in the past...

[russ p]

I appreciate that the NRM can't change the past collecting policy but in recent history you have to admit there have been a few odd decisions.

I'm not anti NRM far from it, I'd love it to move forward with people in charge that are knowledgeable and passionate about the place rather the people who like the status and possibly the money.

I'm certainly not saying that that is how the current management is focused, but they are being judged possibly unfairly by recent events and members of former management

[legomanbiffo]

Has anyone else come across this problem on their sound version? 

 

Start up sequence

 

F7 Start Dale diesel generator

F14 Start Tilt pumps

F1 Start 1st Turbine and allow to spin up

F10 Start 2nd Turbine and allow to spin up

 

Up to this point the horns work correctly.

 

F11 Start 3rd Turbine and allow to spin up

 

I find that pressing either F2, F3 or F4 the horns have ceased to work

Has anyone else come across this problem on their sound version? 

 

Start up sequence

 

F7 Start Dale diesel generator

F14 Start Tilt pumps

F1 Start 1st Turbine and allow to spin up

F10 Start 2nd Turbine and allow to spin up

 

Up to this point the horns work correctly.

 

F11 Start 3rd Turbine and allow to spin up

 

I find that pressing either F2, F3 or F4 the horns have ceased to work but when I press F7 and shut down the Dale diesel generator and it has stopped running the horns sound again.   Interestingly if I use the start up sequence as if the APT-E was on a shore supply and not start the Dale diesel generator the horns behave correctly.   But as soon as I start the the Dale diesel generator the horns cease to function.   It does not make any difference if I just have PC1 on the track or the complete train.

Bruce,

 

I'll check this out when I get a minute but I think I know what's happening, and more importantly, how to stop it happening. Sound chips can only play a certain number of sounds at once, and if you exceed that you won't hear the extra sounds you're trying to play. When you use F10 & F11 to start extra turbines, two channels out of this total are used up until you release their F keys. If you don't release them the sound sits in a 'wait state', waiting for you to turn it off. Try turning off F10 and F11 as soon as their sequence has played and you should find your horns will work ok. You may be able to just turn F10 or F11 on and then immediately off again to trigger the turbine start sequence but I'll need to check that.

 

Bif

[russ p]

Where do sounds mentioned above actually come from? It always intrigues me that sound is available for loco's such as 15,22 and 10000. Are the actually genuine?

Cheers

[Mr_Tilt]

APT-E might be public property but what would have happened if the NRM had said "We don't have the money or skills to look after that, take it away" when it was sent in their direction? As someone commented earlier, most museums have far more exhibits than they can look after. Turning them away however means they are probably lost for good.

 

When E-Train was originally planned to retire it seemed the NRM were very enthusiastic about taking the train on, and the Chief Mechanical Engineer up there at the time, John Bellwood, was very keen on doing all sorts of stuff to enable the public to see the train.

 

Taking TC2 out of the consist and displaying it in the Great Hall with an E1T and SA bogie under each end with the remote tilting facility was the first stage of that work. Things, staff and attitudes changed, as they have a habit of doing, and John retired from his post. His successor wasn't anywhere near as keen on carrying on with the policies regarding E-Train, and when they re-built the Great Hall, removing the second turntable, the TC2 display was closed down, and the downhill slide of the train's condition started from that point. 

 

Paul Leadley and I became aware that HSFV1, the original test vehicle that Prof. Alan Wickens used for his vital wheel/rail dynamics work, still existed under Serco's ownership in 2009, and we lobbied them to suggest that it really should be preserved, to which they agreed. We suggested to the NRM that the perfect place to display HSV1 would be in front of E-Train at Shildon, where there was available space, but the NRM weren't interested in the vehicle at all! I've suggested in the past that HSFV1 is the 'Stephenson's Rocket' of the modern age, without it many of the world's railways would not be running as fast as they are now, but there was no wish to preserve it on the NRM's part.

 

I spent a considerable amount of time trying to find a heritage railway site that would accept HSFV1 as an exhibit without success, and eventually the ERM at Coventry said they'd be happy to take her, and I forked out a considerable sum of money to get her moved to Coventry from Derby,where she remains to this day. Unfortunately we've had little chance to do much further work on her since then, money, time and ability being lacking but we have managed a small amount there.

 

I'm not sure that the NRM is all that interested in rail vehicles that didn't actually run in revenue service. Neither E-Train nor HSFV1 fall into that category of course and are treated a bit as the 'great unwashed'. Quite what can be done about that is difficult to see, but a change in attitude would be very welcome. 

Edited April 24, 2016 by Mr_Tilt

[RedgateModels]

APT-E might be public property but what would have happened if the NRM had said "We don't have the money or skills to look after that, take it away" when it was sent in their direction? As someone commented earlier, most museums have far more exhibits than they can look after. Turning them away however means they are probably lost for good.

 

Most preserved railways already have too much stock, you can see it dumped by the side of the tracks falling apart. Even if one of them had offered APT-E a home, it would have been a long way behind scores of MK1 coaches as a never to run train. Can you name a preserved railway that could have put it indoors even now? APT-P isn't looking too pretty and that's had a repaint within the last few years.

 

Flying Scotsman - an expensive investigation is an excellent idea. Let's stop restoring stuff and spend the cash on lawyers.

 

No point in crying over spilt milk. FS won't need restoring again for a long while and I bet it's already generated more publicity value (using standard industry marketing measures) than the cost of the work. APT-E now has an indoor home. We have an excellent model of it too, something that would be a lot less likely if there wasn't NRM involvement.

 

Well said Phil

[Ian J.]

Over 3000 posts now. I don't think it could be said there's no interest in E-Train...

[Phil S]

The picture shows my Rapido/NRM 00 APT-E running on the high-level track above my head in the loft (the track being on the RSJs supporting the roof):

With Rocoline ready-ballasted track, and their Radius 3 (r=420mm) 180 degree bends either end, the APT-E (or another train) can be left to run-in whilst work progresses on the layout below.

 

Managed to join the 2 parts of the rake above my head this morning; Joining the coaches is a bit tricky - even at normal height.

Sound of a jet engine running around ones head gets a bit much after a while, but nice to see it running and on the high level line (146 diving out of the way)

rgds Phil

 

FYI: Green light below track in the right-distance is the trackpower monitor LED. One of the Velux window openings can be seen below the RSJ height on the left.

The radius available was, of course, dictated by the separation of the RSJs - giving an 8m x 840mm oval.

This high level loop was the first Rocoline track I used: from the digital start sets - ready ballasted with the rubbery base gives quiet running and no mess.

The TV/monitors in shot are used to show Video Camera images of the layout, or the track plan, when the layout is running (or listen to Radio4extra as in picture)

A backscene might be added eventually.

[russ p]

When E-Train was originally planned to retire it seemed the NRM were very enthusiastic about taking the train on, and the Chief Mechanical Engineer up there at the time, John Bellwood, was very keen on doing all sorts of stuff to enable the public to see the train.

 

Taking TC2 out of the consist and displaying it in the Great Hall with an E1T and SA bogie under each end with the remote tilting facility was the first stage of that work. Things, staff and attitudes changed, as they have a habit of doing, and John retired from his post. His successor wasn't anywhere near as keen on carrying on with the policies regarding E-Train, and when they re-built the Great Hall, removing the second turntable, the TC2 display was closed down, and the downhill slide of the train's condition started from that point. 

 

Paul Leadley and I became aware that HSFV1, the original test vehicle that Prof. Alan Wickens used for his vital wheel/rail dynamics work, still existed under Serco's ownership in 2009, and we lobbied them to suggest that it really should be preserved, to which they agreed. We suggested to the NRM that the perfect place to display HSV1 would be in front of E-Train at Shildon, where there was available space, but the NRM weren't interested in the vehicle at all! I've suggested in the past that HSFV1 is the 'Stephenson's Rocket' of the modern age, without it many of the world's railways would not be running as fast as they are now, but there was no wish to preserve it on the NRM's part.

 

I spent a considerable amount of time trying to find a heritage railway site that would accept HSFV1 as an exhibit without success, and eventually the ERM at Coventry said they'd be happy to take her, and I forked out a considerable sum of money to get her moved to Coventry from Derby,where she remains to this day. Unfortunately we've had little chance to do much further work on her since then, money, time and ability being lacking but we have managed a small amount there.

 

I'm not sure that the NRM is all that interested in rail vehicles that didn't actually run in revenue service. Neither E-Train nor HSFV1 fall into that category of course and are treated a bit as the 'great unwashed'. Quite what can be done about that is difficult to see, but a change in attitude would be very welcome.

 

I find it quite ironic that they can find room for a Japanese bullet train but not our home grown high speed trains or vehicles

[Phil Parker]

I find it quite ironic that they can find room for a Japanese bullet train but not our home grown high speed trains or vehicles

 

Really? The Bullet Train is iconic and well known around the world. It might not be British, but if you are a building a collection to be appreciated world-wide then it probably deserves space as much as Scotsman. It's also very different from anything else in the collection and fascinating to walk through and compare to a British carriage.

 

Does it deserve space more than APT-E? Well, it is shorter to easier to fit in and it was a significant player in high speed rail and a huge change in the approach taken to railways. Personally, I prefer APT-E but then I'm a bit of an anorak.

 

The NRM solution is simple. Pick a thousand enthusiasts by random ballot. Then ask them to come up with a list of 50 items that should be in the Great Hall at York. By the time they agree, everything will have rusted away - problem solved.