Sheffield Exchange, Toy trains, music and fun!

[Titan]

I had a very perplexing issue with common return, but with a difference. I use live OLE, so I can run two trains at once on one circuit, the OLE and track supply return out of necessity being common.

 

I was trying to move a diesel out on to the main line, with a stationary electric on both the up and down mains. The electrics of course were switched to OLE pick up only. This meant that there was no electrical connection between the OLE and the track supply rail via the locos. Why then, when I tried to drive the diesel out, did both electric trains start to move? Put the pans down, and they did not budge. Pan up, and they both moved. I completely disconnected the OLE supply leaving the OLE with no electrical connection. Pans up, they moved, pans down they did not. Staring at my completely disconnected OLE I was thinking "how the f*ck is this possible, they are defying all the laws of physics and electricity!"

 

Well, I eventually worked it out. One of my OLE supports that held both the up and down main equipments was not electrically isolated, meaning the two OLE sections were connected. What was happening was the track power was going up through the wheels and motor of one electric loco, through the pan and support, and down the pan/motor/wheels of the other loco back to the common return, basically I had managed to connect both electric locos in series via the support and the common return, but only whilst trying to run a diesel on to the line in that direction... Bet no one else has managed that fault! (although not a very big bet, you never know!)

[Clive Mortimore]

Section 1 is brown, section 2 red, section 3 orange, section 4 yellow, section 5 green, section 6 blue, section 7 purple, section 8 grey, section 9 white, section 10 black, section 11 brown

section 12 red, section 13 orange, section 14 yellow, section 15 green, section 16 blue, section 17 pink, section 18 grey, section 19 white, section 20 black, section 21 brown, section 22 red, and section 23 pink.

 

Pink was used where two adjoining sections were the same colour.

[newbryford]

Section 1 is brown, section 2 red, section 3 orange, section 4 yellow, section 5 green, section 6 blue, section 7 purple, section 8 grey, section 9 white, section 10 black, section 11 brown

section 12 red, section 13 orange, section 14 yellow, section 15 green, section 16 blue, section 17 pink, section 18 grey, section 19 white, section 20 black, section 21 brown, section 22 red, and section 23 pink.

 

Pink was used where two adjoining sections were the same colour.

 

You could just use red and black.......

 

Just sayin'

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

p.s. When I used the ancient art form that is was DC, I too used the same colour code that matches resistors etc.. (apart from pink - that was reserved for common return from point motors.......)

[Clive Mortimore]

You could just use red and black.......

 

Just sayin'

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

p.s. When I used the ancient art form that is was DC, I too used the same colour code that matches resistors etc.. (apart from pink - that was reserved for common return from point motors.......)

OOhhh Errrr

 

I wire up my point motors grey for normal route, brown for reversed and pink as the common return.

 

I reality the colour of the wire don't matter, as I label all my wires and document where they go to and from. That was very important when wiring up exhibition layouts.

[newbryford]

OOhhh Errrr

 

I wire up my point motors grey for normal route, brown for reversed and pink as the common return.

 

I reality the colour of the wire don't matter, as I label all my wires and document where they go to and from. That was very important when wiring up exhibition layouts.

 

 I do the same.

Red to the front (viewing side) rail and black to the back.......

[Clive Mortimore]

Paul C came around this evening....nothing stayed on the tracks, things moved that weren't meant to and things that were meant to were stuck still.

 

lesson number 465....concentrate not chat.

 

It was a great evening, cheers Paul.

[Clive Mortimore]

I had a very perplexing issue with common return, but with a difference. I use live OLE, so I can run two trains at once on one circuit, the OLE and track supply return out of necessity being common.

 

I was trying to move a diesel out on to the main line, with a stationary electric on both the up and down mains. The electrics of course were switched to OLE pick up only. This meant that there was no electrical connection between the OLE and the track supply rail via the locos. Why then, when I tried to drive the diesel out, did both electric trains start to move? Put the pans down, and they did not budge. Pan up, and they both moved. I completely disconnected the OLE supply leaving the OLE with no electrical connection. Pans up, they moved, pans down they did not. Staring at my completely disconnected OLE I was thinking "how the f*ck is this possible, they are defying all the laws of physics and electricity!"

 

Well, I eventually worked it out. One of my OLE supports that held both the up and down main equipments was not electrically isolated, meaning the two OLE sections were connected. What was happening was the track power was going up through the wheels and motor of one electric loco, through the pan and support, and down the pan/motor/wheels of the other loco back to the common return, basically I had managed to connect both electric locos in series via the support and the common return, but only whilst trying to run a diesel on to the line in that direction... Bet no one else has managed that fault! (although not a very big bet, you never know!)

And the real railway trust you with their electrics. I suppose that is easier than DCC as it is only one wire.

[Dagworth]

I had a very perplexing issue with common return, but with a difference. I use live OLE, so I can run two trains at once on one circuit, the OLE and track supply return out of necessity being common.

 

I was trying to move a diesel out on to the main line, with a stationary electric on both the up and down mains. The electrics of course were switched to OLE pick up only. This meant that there was no electrical connection between the OLE and the track supply rail via the locos. Why then, when I tried to drive the diesel out, did both electric trains start to move? Put the pans down, and they did not budge. Pan up, and they both moved. I completely disconnected the OLE supply leaving the OLE with no electrical connection. Pans up, they moved, pans down they did not. Staring at my completely disconnected OLE I was thinking "how the f*ck is this possible, they are defying all the laws of physics and electricity!"

 

Well, I eventually worked it out. One of my OLE supports that held both the up and down main equipments was not electrically isolated, meaning the two OLE sections were connected. What was happening was the track power was going up through the wheels and motor of one electric loco, through the pan and support, and down the pan/motor/wheels of the other loco back to the common return, basically I had managed to connect both electric locos in series via the support and the common return, but only whilst trying to run a diesel on to the line in that direction... Bet no one else has managed that fault! (although not a very big bet, you never know!)

I guess you had one loco on the track back-to-front so what should have been the return wheels on the electric were on the live track rails?

 

Andi

[St Enodoc]

OOhhh Errrr

 

I wire up my point motors grey for normal route, brown for reversed and pink as the common return.

 

I reality the colour of the wire don't matter, as I label all my wires and document where they go to and from. That was very important when wiring up exhibition layouts.

Red/black - track power

Green - frogs (natch)

Clear/clear + white trace (speaker wire) - DCC accessory power

Brown - slow action point motor/signal feed

Blue - slow action point motor/signal return

Brown + red trace - slow action point motor/signal +ve

Brown + blue trace - slow action point motor -ve

White - uncoupler feed

White + black trace - uncoupler return

Yellow - solenoid point motor feed

Grey - solenoid point motor feed

Pink - solenoid point motor return

Orange/cream/violet - spares for things I haven't thought of yet

 

Like you, I label both ends of every wire.

[Stubby47]

Brown - pos feed

Brown - neg feed

Brown - frog feed

Brown - uncoupler feed & return

 

Simples

[Titan]

I guess you had one loco on the track back-to-front so what should have been the return wheels on the electric were on the live track rails?

 

Andi

 

Both electric locos were the right way round as they were running ok until I decided to bring the diesel in. Funny thing was I had been running trains with this fault present for quite some time without it being apparent. I think it may have needed a particular combination of points set between up and down main to establish the circuit. Up until that point the electrics had been happily running independently with an OLE supply common to each other and a return common to the individual tracks!

Edited April 11, 2018 by Titan

[newbryford]

Brown - pos feed

Brown - neg feed

Brown - frog feed

Brown - uncoupler feed & return

 

Simples

 

So if it goes wrong and need to fault find, you'll be deep in the brown stuff........

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Donington Road]

It is Wit-ham

 

In Lincolnshire speak it is With-um.

[The Stationmaster]

In Lincolnshire speak it is With-um.

 

Ah, but the Western one is in Zummerzet where they probably wouldn't understand Lincolnshire speak (and vice versa).

So if it goes wrong and need to fault find, you'll be deep in the brown stuff........

 

Cheers,

Mick

Simples - just keep cutting wires until everything works (or nothing works)

[Stubby47]

So if it goes wrong and need to fault find, you'll be deep in the brown stuff........

 

Cheers,

Mick

Fix one wire at a time, from feed point ( track, frog, etc) to a marked position on the choc block near the control panel.

 

Fix one wire at a time from choc block to panel.

 

No faults; no problems.

[CloggyDog]

100_4799.JPG

 Who needs DCC?

 

Today I was running my EMUs and it is getting very tempting to add OLE (25KVa) and just calling the station Exchange. It would be great to run steam, diesel and electric together.

 

Heretic!

 

1500v dc is the one and only True Way , tha'kna's

 

[Clive Mortimore]

Heretic!

 

1500v dc is the one and only True Way , tha'kna's

 

Heretic and luddite...that's me...did you see my photo of a steam loco on the DEMU forum?

[Clive Mortimore]

Anyhow Mr Cloggydog, you can't run AM9s under 1500 v DC.

[newbryford]

100_4799.JPG

 Who needs DCC?

 

Today I was running my EMUs and it is getting very tempting to add OLE (25KVa) and just calling the station Exchange. It would be great to run steam, diesel and electric together.

 

Oops

One "a" too many...........

 

(Waits for reposte of one C too many)

 

Cheers,

Mick

[woodenhead]

Brown - pos feed

Brown - neg feed

Brown - frog feed

Brown - uncoupler feed & return

 

Simples

Simplest is no wires at all, remove the motors and just push them along not forgetting to provide the authentic railway sound using the oral orifice on top of your shoulders

[Clive Mortimore]

Oops

One "a" too many...........

 

(Waits for reposte of one C too many)

 

Cheers,

Mick

No Mick

 

25 KVa is correct for 25,000 volts alternating current. Or I think use to be in the days I worked in the power station as a trainee engineer. 

 

Yours

 

Clive (ONC ...failed)

Edited April 11, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[newbryford]

Actually should be a small k for kilo. K is Kelvin!

https://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/ias/pub-dept/abbreviation.pdf

 

So it should be kV AC or kV ac. (I think AC is the more accepted term but the list above shows it as ac....)

 

VA is an alternate way of expressing power (Volts Amps, as opposed to watts - it's a more correct/efficient way of denoting inductive power loads such as transformers and motors. As electrical machines are approximately 90% efficient a 1kW motor would be about 1.1kVA)

 

Cheers,

Mick

HNC Electrical/electronic engineering..... but I've forgotten it all as it was quite some time ago.........

[Clive Mortimore]

Actually should be a small k for kilo. K is Kelvin!

https://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/ias/pub-dept/abbreviation.pdf

 

So it should be kV AC or kV ac. (I think AC is the more accepted term but the list above shows it as ac....)

 

VA is an alternate way of expressing power (Volts Amps, as opposed to watts - it's a more correct/efficient way of denoting inductive power loads such as transformers and motors. As electrical machines are approximately 90% efficient a 1kW motor would be about 1.1kVA)

 

Cheers,

Mick

HNC Electrical/electronic engineering..... but I've forgotten it all as it was quite some time ago.........

Don't care really, cos it ain't go to be Woodhead. .......................................................or DCC

[newbryford]

Don't care really, cos it ain't go to be Woodhead. .......................................................or DCC

 

I almost read that as wooden and wondered if you had a Brio train set.....

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Enterprisingwestern]

Wiring.

Red going.

Black coming.

What could be simpler?

 

Mike.