Sheffield Exchange, Toy trains, music and fun!

[Ravenser]

And trying to remember the programme addresses for the locos and units

 

Sheet of A4 , laminated, with a list of the loco numbers and addresses. A doddle in the 60s when diesels had 4 digit numbers anyway. DMUs take the class number (2 digit addresses go up to 127) 

[timbowilts]

Hi Andy

 

Give us a chance I am too busy admiring my abilities of getting two trains running in opposite directions on both the roundy roundy tracks without them falling off. The Bo-Bo with 8 coaches  on the down line and a six car DMU (3car Derby plus a 3car Met-Cam) on the up line. I have never had a roundy roundy train set since I became a grown up. I thought 3 ft curves would be OK, they look very tight in such a big room. It all seems very level, no racing down an incline or a struggle up hill.

Of course, now that you have got two wired continuous loops, progress will now slow to a crawl whilst you “test” all you motive power and rolling stock!

 

Tim T

[Andrew P]

I have just had a little play, swapped the Bo-Bo for a class 4 4-6-0. It started to derail. I found the problem, I hadn't joined to sections of track properly. The rail joiner had slid under the foot of rail not around it, making the rail head proud. Simple cure, pull back the joiner and then slide it into its correct position.

 

The tender then derailed on the single slip. When I went to put it back on the track I noticed a lose squiggly bit of wire between the rear wheels. No idea what this bit of  wire is. Is it part of the detail that has come lose? Anyhow with it removed the class 4 zoomed around and didn't fall off any more.

 

I then became brave and put a Stanier class 4 tank on the front, a bit of double heading. First lap I had to stop the train as I noticed the tank engine's pony truck wasn't on the track. For all the other laps it stayed on so I think I hadn't put it on properly to start with.

 

As for the DMU going the other way only one derailment and that was where I wasn't paying attention and it clobbered my hand where I was rerailing the class 4.

 

So I am going to start a set of operating rules. The first one being "Stop all movements if a train is having running problems."

The SQUIGGLY bit was probably a Sand Pipe mate, other than that it's all good news.

 

Andy Videos yet?            

[newbryford]

And trying to remember the programme addresses for the locos and units

 

No need with some systems - you can just address the loco/unit and take a picture of it and give it a name.

 

Just as long as it's a short catchy and easy to remember name.

 

Just don't try "steam engine with copper topped chimney - oh b*gger, they all look the same" - that's too many characters.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Clive Mortimore]

No need with some systems - you can just address the loco/unit and take a picture of it and give it a name.

 

Just as long as it's a short catchy and easy to remember name.

 

Just don't try "steam engine with copper topped chimney - oh b*gger, they all look the same" - that's too many characters.

 

Cheers,

Mick

Michael my friend

 

Still a lot easier flick a few switches, turn the knob and off it goes. No having to even remember what class it is or its number, just "Oh! That one looks pretty I will run it". Even those with copper capped chimney's that look all the same.

[newbryford]

Michael .

 

 

Sorry - don't respond to that one on any other day than a Sunday and your post was after midnight.......... 

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Clive Mortimore]

Of course, now that you have got two wired continuous loops, progress will now slow to a crawl whilst you “test” all you motive power and rolling stock!

 

Tim T

Hi Tim

 

No I can work with the trains running around me, that was the plan. Get the running lines operational, then sort out the station throat and finish off with the fuddle yards.

 

I have a few problems....well apart from the normal ones.... I have some with the layout.

This afternoon I carefully worked out where the crossover in the station throat at the end of the GNR lines should  be. I marked the spot, and then laid the curve to Doncaster Junction, it was never a equal radius curve so to set it out without any dog legs was quite hard. This evening I was starting to mark out the station throat, some things didn't equate to the paper train set. So I re-examined what I had done this afternoon. Simple maths subtraction problem. Yeah I messed up and put the cross over 20mm to close to the station, doesn't sound much but it threw the diamond crossing in the middle out. Solution lift the track and re-position the crossover. As soon as I took out the track pins and gently moved it the 20mm the curve looked better. I will bang in some more nails tomorrow. Mrs M has gone to sleep so banging this time of night might wake her.

 

The other one is I have the controllers wired up so every thing is going the opposite way. Not a big problem I just need to re-wire the control panel.....no only the two wires coming out of each controller.

 

 

The SQUIGGLY bit was probably a Sand Pipe mate, other than that it's all good news.

 

Andy Videos yet?            

Videos once all is running properly, and I have learned how to use the video bit on my camera.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[newbryford]

 

 

The other one is I have the controllers wired up so every thing is going the opposite way. Not a big problem I just need to re-wire the control panel.....no only the two wires coming out of each controller.

 

 

 

You wouldn't need to rewire it with DCC......

 

Just sayin'..............

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Clive Mortimore]

You wouldn't need to rewire it with DCC......

 

Just sayin'..............

 

Cheers,

Mick

Hi Mick

 

In the time it takes to program a loco I would have swapped over the eight wires , so all my locos can run the right way. I could always leave things alone and just remember that the controller pointing to the left means the loco will go to the right, much easier than remembering all those numbers to key in....just saying.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Just don't try "steam engine with copper topped chimney - oh b*gger, they all look the same" - that's too many characters.

 

AKA "deja vu".

 

Mike.

[Regularity]

Hi Mick

 

In the time it takes to program a loco I would have swapped over the eight wires , so all my locos can run the right way. I could always leave things alone and just remember that the controller pointing to the left means the loco will go to the right, much easier than remembering all those numbers to key in....just saying.

I don’t want to get drawn into this: you either want to go digital or you don’t.

But, you can set the address on each loco to use the last 4 digits of its number, and leave the configuration at that and use them as pre-programmed. All you need to do then to select an engine is dial it up, and run it.

[Clive Mortimore]

I don’t want to get drawn into this: you either want to go digital or you don’t.

But, you can set the address on each loco to use the last 4 digits of its number, and leave the configuration at that and use them as pre-programmed. All you need to do then to select an engine is dial it up, and run it.

Hi Simon

 

Mick and I despite getting along with each other are at opposite poles when it comes to DC. I am a total proud Luddite and will stick to my DC without the extra C and Mick well he is just misguided by all the sales talk. So anything you see where Mick, Andy Peters or Andi Dell (because they are just as bad) mention me joining the 20th century is all banter.

 

Yours

 

Ned Ludd...aka Clive

[Andrew P]

Hi Simon

 

Mick and I despite getting along with each other are at opposite poles when it comes to DC. I am a total proud Luddite and will stick to my DC without the extra C and Mick well he is just misguided by all the sales talk. So anything you see where Mick, Andy Peters or Andi Dell (because they are just as bad) mention me joining the 20th century is all banter.

 

Yours

 

Ned Ludd...aka Clive

Yeah but,    well actually yeah, you do need to get with it man, like it's the 21st century, and things move on, we no longer poo through a hole in the wall into a bucket on the street below, (well some of us don't), and so the EXTRA C, is wot this new stuff is all about. 

 

AND just think of all the NICE NOISES you could have.          

 

Just sayin

Edited March 12, 2018 by Andrew P

[Regularity]

I got that, Clive, which is why I don’t want to get drawn into it - I don’t know any of you well enough: but despite the banter, there is the danger of disinformation, on both sides.

 

As far as I can see, DC is a simple, tried and tested solution based on simple ideas that rapidly leads to complicated wiring (complicated as in lots of wire everywhere). DCC is an initially more complicated but well established system that leads to a great deal of simplification of wiring, slightly beyond two-wires but only just. Unfortunately a lot of its promoters go into a great deal of rapture about the more detailed aspects, not realising that all they are doing is making it appear far more complicated than it has to be. Decent decoders (with or without sound) and an easy to use system mean it really can be as simple as selecting an engine and driving it, with the benefit of better running due to a constant supply voltage of 14v.

 

It’s a question whether you want the initial simplicity of 2-rail DC, followed by complicated wiring, or the “complication” of learning how to program a decoder to have a new address, and the simplicity of learning how to wire up an auto-reverse unit and electronic switches for frogs, in both cases, two-wires in from the power bus, and in the former, two wires out to the track, and the latter, one wire out to the frog.

 

Unless you want to fit everything with sound, then I think the “cost” of DCC for something as elaborate as your layout is pretty comparable to DC, but that’s not the point: if people want it, they will find the money, if only by not buying a couple of new engines.

 

The operational benefits of DCC really come on stream in a terminal layout where multiple simultaneous movements are possible, and in terms of authenticity required.

 

For example, a passenger train arrives. The station pilot drops onto the rear of the train and pulls the coaches out and puts them into another platform road (or takes them to the carriage sidings). On the prototype, the train engine would not remain on the stop blocks, but move slowly up the platform and halt at the signal, before going on-shed or taking up its next duty. This happens almost immediately it is released.

 

This is perfectly achievable in DC, but would require that each platform has its own section, with associated multipole switching, so that the train engine can be driven separately, and whoever is operating the points and signals also has to operate the electrical feeds.

In DCC, the station pilot us simply on a different controller than the train engine. Route setting and signalling us just that, with no need to think about power feeds, section switches and isolating sections.

 

In DCC, train drivers drive the trains, not the layout. That’s the real difference, and a properly set up system supports that, not complicates it. Forget the bells and whistles: the ability to enable normal railway operations is what it’s about.

 

Well, that’s my view.

 

By the way, you can easily change from DC to DCC, as long as you haven’t used bell wire for your wiring, by replacing on of you controllers with a DCC system, switching all sections to it, and all isolators on. This also means, should you see the light, that you can do things piecemeal - provided you can remember which locos are DC and which DCC, and run them with the appropriate system!

 

PS If you are yet to join the 20th century, are you using clockwork?

Edited March 12, 2018 by Regularity

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Simon

 

I am happy with what I know. There isn't that much more wiring, point motors need wires, frog switches need wires, sections or power feeds need wires, signals need wires and what about these droppers and bus wires I keep hearing about? My extra bits are a few cheap switches but no decoders. 

 

Most of the time I will be operating the layout by myself, Two trains rotating around the room and me shuffling stuff in the station, that is more than enough for one person. If I have a friend or friends around to play then yes it is possible to do more simultaneous movements but under the control of the signals, which would be a requirement with DCC as well.

 

I am not a fan of miniature loco sounds, I prefer hearing the wheels of the train as they whoosh along the track. I often hear a derailed coach bogie before seeing it, the added noise can mask this. Plus I like to have music on in the background and who would want to drown out this with an artificial racket.

 

 

Other DCC features are not applicable to my modelling. 1960s lights on diesels only showed up or lit at night or in bad weather. I tried operating in the dark and kept bashing into things. 

 

I am happy with my 19th century technology of switches and electro-magnetic motors. :locomotive:

 

Ned Ludd

Edited March 12, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[Denbridge]

Hi Simon

 

I am happy with what I know. There isn't that much more wiring, point motors need wires, frog switches need wires, sections or power feeds need wires, signals need wires and what about these droppers and bus wires I keep hearing about? My extra bits are a few cheap switches but no decoders. 

 

Most of the time I will be operating the layout by myself, Two trains rotating around the room and me shuffling stuff in the station, that is more than enough for one person. If I have a friend or friends around to play then yes it is possible to do more simultaneous movements but under the control of the signals, which would be a requirement with DCC as well.

 

I am not a fan of miniature loco sounds, I prefer hearing the wheels of the train as they whoosh along the track. I often hear a derailed coach bogie before seeing it, the added noise can mask this. Plus I like to have music on in the background and who would want to drown out this with an artificial racket.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3_Vf8Jk1-E

 

Other DCC features are not applicable to my modelling. 1960s lights on diesels only showed up or lit at night or in bad weather. I tried operating in the dark and kept bashing into things. 

 

I am happy with my 19th century technology of switches and elector-magnetic motors. :locomotive:

 

Ned Ludd

having been involved in preserved and miniature live steam i have yet to hear a 4mm sound fitted loco that sounds convincing. And a well wired DC layout will enable ALL prototypical movements under the control of signals and indeed yard movements.

[Clive Mortimore]

I the station area I am using code 75 points with electrofrogs. To save time bashing my head while soldering under the baseboard I decided to use Gaugemaster GM500 relay thingies, not switches operated by the point motors. They are mounted at the back of the control panel making wiring easier. I wired up the first section of station track this morning. The train would only go when the points were set one way., reverse the wires to the relay, no still only go when the points were set one way. Worked when the wires were removed from the relay, but you can never trust Peco electrofrog points to work once the ballast is laid. Asked my eldest to help me, failed electronics at university, so might be useful. After trying this and that, including powering with DC as relays prefer DC still nothing. It was suggested we take out the CDU from the circuit. Using a relay that still needs to be connected to its respective point we heard "click" and the poles changed. Rewired what had be dismantled. Turn the knob on the controller, a short so changed the point setting, another short. I swapped over the two track feed wires and the Type 2 went Brummmm Brummmm. :yahoo:

 

It appears the CDU being in the circuit was the problem, despite the Gaugemaster info showing it could be used with the GM500. The points furthest away from the panel are working fine without the CDU.

 

A BIG THANK YOU to Bobbie for helping.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[Clive Mortimore]

Before Andy , Andi and MICK suggest it wouldn't have been a problem with DCC. I am sure there would have been other issues.

[The Stationmaster]

I the station area I am using code 75 points with electrofrogs. To save time bashing my head while soldering under the baseboard I decided to use Gaugemaster GM500 relay thingies. They are mounted at the back of the control panel making wiring easier. I wired up the first section of station track this morning. The train would only go when the points were set one way., reverse the wires to the relay, no still only go when the points were set one way. Worked when the wires were removed from the relay, but you can never trust Peco electrofrog points to work once the ballast is laid. Asked my eldest to help me, failed electronics at university, so might be useful. After trying this and that, including powering with DC as relays prefer DC still nothing. It was suggested we take out the CDU from the circuit. Using a relay that still needs to be connected to its respective point we heard "click" and the poles changed. Rewired what had be dismantled. Turn the knob on the controller, a short so changed the point setting, another short. I swapped over the two track feed wires and the Type 2 went Brummmm Brummmm. :yahoo:

 

It appears the CDU being in the circuit was the problem, despite the Gaugemaster info showing it could be used with the GM500. The points furthest away from the panel are working fine without the CDU.

 

A BIG THANK YOU to Bobbie for helping.

 

Just you wait Clive - bet one of 'them' will be on here telling you one of those frog juice drink thingies (spawn?) will be just what you need and it would have saved you the time you spent sharing your hobby with your offspring, nothing like traditional railway modelling for family bonding

[Regularity]

Before Andy , Andi and MICK suggest it wouldn't have been a problem with DCC. I am sure there would have been other issues.

Yes, but maybe not due to DC or DCC...

Edited March 14, 2018 by Regularity

[Regularity]

Just you wait Clive - bet one of 'them' will be on here telling you one of those frog juice drink thingies (spawn?) will be just what you need and it would have saved you the time you spent sharing your hobby with your offspring, nothing like traditional railway modelling for family bonding

Mike’s right, Clive.

You could have used the CDU to power the point motors, and a juicer to the frog.

And that would just work.

[Andrew P]

Hi Mate, good to have a chat on the dog and bone, better than trying to explain on here, glad your sorted, of sorts.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Hi Mate, good to have a chat on the dog and bone, better than trying to explain on here, glad your sorted, of sorts.

 

Ned Ludd has got a phone??????????????????????

Hope it's not a mobile thingy!

What happened to the baked bean tin Clive?

 

Mike.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Any chance of some photos of the layout Clive.

 

Either digital or roll film will do.

[Regularity]

Crayons are also acceptable, if other technologies are beyond you...