Bachmann NRM/Locomotionmodels.com - GNR Ivatt C1

[Legend]

It's the C1 (large boiler type) Legend. Someone like Graeme King may be able to answer about whether this opens the doors about a small boiler type.

Thanks 2750. Appreciate the answer. As usual I got it the wrong way round!

[newbryford]

Thankfully it wasn't a D34 or Darlington Station.............

 

Cheers,

Mick

[JSpencer]

Not being an expert on such things , is this the large boiler end version? Is that a C1 or C2? And probably stupid question but is the only difference the size of boiler? The NRM has both large and small boiler end versions doesn't it? So would both be exclusive?

I would interpret these questions on exclusivity as people enquiring whether they have to pay £180 to get an Atlantic or whether they should wait for a lower cost main range model. Coupled with the few people who have said too expensive for me, this should be a warning to manufacturers they are pushing it in terms of price. Oh yes I know costs are up but there is a ceiling the uk public will pay. Looks to me like they are very close to it.

Reading everything today, there may never be a main range model for this loco class.

[JSpencer]

A smart move, because frankly they needed to. It's already apparent on here that some people are put off by price. I am both relieved because I thought at one stage all this hype was about a reintroduced J72, and in a conundrum, I don't need one but I think it will be a rather nice model. Should I spend £180 on myself on something I might use once a year...................it's a tricky call.

An all new J72 at -say - £100 is certainly something I would not buy. The current Bachmann one is perfectly adequate for my layout.

I did not hear any hype for a J72, so curious by the statement.

 

I don,t intend to use my C1 for much but it fills an early chapter in the Flying Scotsman saga. Just need the Stirling single (and then the SECR D class for the boat train saga).

Edited July 29, 2014 by JSpencer

[DLPG]

Fancy the BR C1 but not sure about the £179 price tag, need to persuade the wife

[Guest Belgian]

Reading everything today, there may never be a main range model for this loco class.

Doesn't the Brighton version fill that 'hole' in effect? The H2 has been announced, but an H1 would be relatively simple to tool up for as it was, to all intents and purpose, an H2 with the Ivatt running plate. If carefully tooled, the running plates could be interchangeable parts on the production line. That would produce two varieties for the main range.

 

As an aside, and in view of the long-standing 'feud' between LNER and Southern modellers as to which group has been the more neglected by the mainstream manufacturers, it would be interesting to know in, say three or four years time, which of the two 'families' - the ex-GNR or ex-LBSCR - of models has sold the most!

[Ian Hargrave]

Fancy the BR C1 but not sure about the £179 price tag, need to persuade the wife[

Let boldness be your friend....I assume you post so that someone....perhaps like me ....will give you the encouragement to buy..It is a super model of an iconic loco. All the best things come at a premium.We have a wonderful national collection of great railway engineering.This is one way of ensuring its perpetuity. Shock,horror,it's more than we expected,(Actually,I guessed the price correctly...no "insider information " there,I assure you).

It is also an indisputable fact that we've had quality cheaply for over a decade.We now have to realise that those days are over.

This is a"something special " moment.......is this something to exercise the gentle art of persuasion over ?

You decide......but don't wait too long..this one's a winner.

[micklner]

Fancy the BR C1 but not sure about the £179 price tag, need to persuade the wife[

Let boldness be your friend....I assume you post so that someone....perhaps like me ....will give you the encouragement to buy..It is a super model of an iconic loco. All the best things come at a premium.We have a wonderful national collection of great railway engineering.This is one way of ensuring its perpetuity. Shock,horror,it's more than we expected,(Actually,I guessed the price correctly...no "insider information " there,I assure you).

It is also an indisputable fact that we've had quality cheaply for over a decade.We now have to realise that those days are over.

This is a"something special " moment.......is this something to exercise the gentle art of persuasion over ?

You decide......but don't wait too long..this one's a winner.

All very good.

BUT this country has been in a recession which we may or may not be coming out of. The price is very high for many people and a big step too far. 

It is all well and good blaming Chinese workers wages as the problem. Perhaps the makers should consider cutting their profit margins as well as simply passing it onto the consumer. In this case its model railways no one need to buy one. as to whether its a winner  time will tell. I have noted they are not saying how many are being made, it would appear scare tactics are being employed with the usual seller tactic "quick buy will you can " never heard that expression before or perhaps have we ?

 

I will happily make do with my old revamped K's version .  I could afford it but I simply cannot justify buying one, many people may have the same opinion.

[JSpencer]

Doesn't the Brighton version fill that 'hole' in effect? The H2 has been announced, but an H1 would be relatively simple to tool up for as it was, to all intents and purpose, an H2 with the Ivatt running plate. If carefully tooled, the running plates could be interchangeable parts on the production line. That would produce two varieties for the main range.

 

As an aside, and in view of the long-standing 'feud' between LNER and Southern modellers as to which group has been the more neglected by the mainstream manufacturers, it would be interesting to know in, say three or four years time, which of the two 'families' - the ex-GNR or ex-LBSCR - of models has sold the most!

Indeed I had said about H2 filling the model shop gap in another post. I guess model shops in the south will be happily over the moon about it while maybe for those in the north, they are probably jumping over the moon in rage... Either way both are over the moon and £180 is cheap for a trip round the moon compared with NASA.

 

As far as Bachmann is concerned, Southern is somewhat neglected in comparison to the North Eastern with 2 pages of locos vs 8 in the catalogue.

Edited July 29, 2014 by JSpencer

[Dunsignalling]

Indeed I had said about H2 filling the model shop gap in another post. I guess model shops in the south will be happily over the moon about while maybe for those in the north, they are probably jumping over the moon in rage... Either way both are over the moon and £180 is cheap for a trip round the moon compared with NASA.

 

As far as Bachmann is concerned, Southern is somewhat neglected in comparison to the North Eastern with 2 pages of locos vs 8 in the catalogue.

Indeed. But it goes a lot further than that.

 

In their entire 25 years, the much-lauded C Class is only the third Southern prototype Bachmann have EVER produced.

 

Even when they eventually get the E4 and the Atlantic out they'll only be up to five.

 

I have as many Bachmann diesel shunters as I do their SR locos!

 

I model BR Southern Region so I have Ivatt tanks and lots of BR Standards but for anyone into the SR pre-1948, Bachmann have always been next to useless.

 

John

[JSpencer]

My Nostalgia with the C1 stems from Rail Riders magazine number 20 published in 1987. The centre pages celebrated 125 years of the Flying Scotsman.

 

7 locos were:

No 1 Stirling single with 6 wheelers.

1621, a North Eastern M1 (later LNER D17/1) hauling 12 wheeler bogie teak coaches. This loco just did the part from York to Edinburgh, the bit being done by GNR engines.

251, GNR Atlantic, subject of today, again with 12 wheelers. These locos covered the journey London to York

 

All the above 3 are preserved at the NRM.

 

4472 - Flying Scotsman A1

60022 - Mallard A4

55019 Deltic

Intercity 125 HST

 

So after today's announcement, just missing the early coaches and first 2 locos. Not that I claim the magazine as accurate, just nostalgic.

Edited July 29, 2014 by JSpencer

[WD0-6-0]

I love the C1 and 251 in GNR livery would be great but I can't even afford the H2 so neither Bachmann or the NRM will be getting my money for these as much as I'd willingly give it to them I don't have it to give. My model of 4419 will have to wait.

Rhys

[Ozexpatriate]

As far as Bachmann is concerned, Southern is somewhat neglected in comparison to the North Eastern with 2 pages of locos vs 8 in the catalogue.

I model BR Southern Region so I have Ivatt tanks and lots of BR Standards but for anyone into the SR pre-1948, Bachmann have always been next to useless.

I won't argue with facts (Bachmann has indeed done or announced five SR locomotives) but the good news is that of those five locomotives three of them have or will appear in the recent past or future. At least this is a better direction for SR fans.

 

Bachmann have offered a better selection of SR brake vans than others.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Ozexpatriate

[OOgaugeJaf]

Would love BR version but that's too expensive for me. Yes a great model but no pay rise for the last 4 years. Someone mention earlier about us still exiting a recession and could not agree more.

[Ozexpatriate]

There's a lot of discussion here about the price point and I understand that this may well be more than some are able to afford, nevertheless ...

 

I don't recall what the NRM City Of Truro (with the plinth) price point was, but as I recall it wasn't vastly different from the price suggested here.

 

Let's not forget that this is a museum commission and anyone who purchases a C1 is supporting the museum.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Ozexpatriate

[Ian Hargrave]

All very good.

BUT this country has been in a recession which we may or may not be coming out of. The price is very high for many people and a big step too far. 

It is all well and good blaming Chinese workers wages as the problem. Perhaps the makers should consider cutting their profit margins as well as simply passing it onto the consumer. In this case its model railways no one need to buy one. as to whether its a winner  time will tell. I have noted they are not saying how many are being made, it would appear scare tactics are being employed with the usual seller tactic "quick buy will you can " never heard that expression before or perhaps have we ?..

 

 

I will happily make do with my old revamped K's version .  I could afford it but I simply cannot justify buying one, many people may have the same opinion.

Then that will be your and their choice.Incidentally,who is "blaming " the workforce,,,,why use that word ? Everyone is entitled to a fair return for their labour.

Do you seriously think that any of our Model railway companies could consider cutting their profit margins ? None of them are charitable institutions created solely for our benefit. Consider...where would any of us be without the quantum leap in quality that there has been in the last 15 years.

"Scare tactics" ? I think not..And the many people with the same opinion ? No doubt we'll be hearing from them soon.

The extent and quality of research and preparation over some years that has gone into the production of this model is awesome.

You want something cheap....fine...then this is not for you.

It seems we still want something without being prepared to pay a proper,costed market price for it.

[JSpencer]

There's a lot of discussion here about the price point and I understand that this may well be more than some are able to afford, nevertheless ...I don't recall what the NRM City Of Truro (with the plinth) price point was, but as I recall it wasn't vastly different from the price suggested here.Let's not forget that this is a museum commission and anyone who purchases a C1 is supporting the museum.

Without plinth Truro was about £130, but we are going back around 5 years.

[Bon Accord]

It seems we still want something without being prepared to pay a proper,costed market price for it.

 

 

Quite, but under 21st century economic conditions any person or company would be mad to think otherwise, as today buyers budgets are under ever increasing pressure.

Of course if an individual has money to burn or at the very least are not encumbered by large debt then their attitude will be different.

[The Stationmaster]

Glad to see it's getting a nice reception - seen close up the EPs are truly staggering in terms of detail and the quantity of individual parts and necessary hand assembly has obviously contributed to the price, but we are going to get what we pay for.

 

As Ian has said I think the surprise was that all three versions have been announced today and I think this makes good sense from the marketing viewpoint.  As others have said Brian Greenwood made it very clear that this is an NRM exclusive model, on that basis it won't be appearing in the main Bachmann range (and after all it will have its own atlantic anyway  which promises from what we heard today to be as good as the C1).

 

There were 3 EPs on show to illustrate the various detail differences between the three versions which the NRM are offering.  There were also a couple of cab mouldings, and several different smokebox doors.  I'm not sure it if has been mentioned elsewhere but it will come with an opening smokebox door and the front tubeplate etc modelled inside the smokebox.  One EP was running smoothly on the rollers and I understand from Graham Hubbard that it the loco has a 'small' flywheel.

 

It was a pleasure to attend the launch and to meet various NRM staff who until now have only been names or voices on the 'phone and i would like to add my thanks for not only the invitation from Brian but for Sandra's excellent map which got us to Durham station (at which point I changed nmy travel plans and joined a Cross Country train to avoid crossing London in the evening rush.

 

Now some of my less than professional snaps and sorry about the background in some of them.

PS Click on the pictures to enlarge them.

 

 

 

 

Edit typo, sorry Sandra

Edited July 30, 2014 by The Stationmaster

[Dunsignalling]

Glad to see it's getting a nice reception - seen close up the EPs are truly staggering in terms of detail and the quantity of individual parts and necessary hand assembly has obviously contributed to the price, but we are going to get what we pay for.

 

As Ian has said I think the surprise was that all three versions have been announced today and I think this makes good sense from the marketing viewpoint.  As others have said Brian Greenwood made it very clear that this is an NRM exclusive model, on that basis it won't be appearing in the main Bachmann range (and after all it will have its own atlantic anyway  which promises from what we heard today to be as good as the C1).

 

There were 3 EPs on show to illustrate the various detail differences between the three versions which the NRM are offering.  There were also a couple of cab mouldings, and several different smokebox doors.  I'm not sure it if has been mentioned elsewhere but it will come with an opening smokebox door and the front tubeplate etc modelled inside the smokebox.  One EP was running smoothly on the rollers and I understand from Graham Hubbard that it the loco has a 'small' flywheel.

 

It was a pleasure to attend the launch and to meet various NRM staff who until now have only been names or voices on the 'phone and i would like to add my thanks for not only the invitation from Brian but for sandar's excellent map which got us to Durham station (at which point I changed nmy travel plans and joined a Cross Country train to avoid crossing London in the evening rush.

 

Now some of my less than professional snaps and sorry about the background in some of them.

PS Click on the pictures to enlarge them.

 

 

Very nice. If they make as good a job of the Brighton one, it'll be worth waiting for.

 

John

[Legend]

Well as I've said before there are two sides to the argument. Yes costs have gone up but Rapido are able to produce a 4 car tilting train with lights through the same sales channel for £225. DJ a Q6 for £135. Presumably Dave is making an acceptable profit, and allowing for a margin at the retailer. These models will also have research and preparation I'm sure to a more than acceptable standard. So in this context £180 seems a bit steep. On the other hand I think the responses show that even for a Limited Edition £180 is approaching or beyond the level people will pay.perhaps the glass ceiling has been reached. We could go into macroeconomics but undoubtably lack of pay increases while living costs rise and disposable income drops is a major factor here. Even Hornby gets that!

 

Finally there is some canny marketing going on. No indications of quantities being produced, whether it will be produced in future years , the intention being given that this is a unique opportunity , jump on the boat or lose out. People are not daft , and are increasingly cynical,they deserve a full explanation so they can make an informed choice.

 

I'm still swithering .i can afford it but can I justify paying that for something that will probably stay in its box for most of the year? Not sure it's Value For Money for me. But we will see just how popular it is. I note there are still some Compounds available from Locomotion at £140, so they haven't moved that fast.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Legend

[coachmann]

Mike Stationmaster, I can tell you had a good day but have you overlooked the fact that it is Great NORTHERN and not Great WESTERN.....     

[martin_l_jones]

The Class 66 in Freightliner Shanks was an exclusive model to Kernow Model Centre when it was released, but then a year or so later Bachmann decided to manufacture exactly the same model for the collectors club, except for an anniversary logo on the cab sides......

[RateTheFreight]

It looks a stunning model. I only wish I could afford a GNR one!

 

Without going off topic, the cost is a big consideration. As Ian states, there is a valid argument to state that for a model of this quality and detail, along with I'm sure the not inconsiderable R&D costs, it is to be expected that an appropriately high price is attached.

 

My only hope is that these prices don't become the norm for 'standard' models as it will likely impact on the popularity of the hobby in my view. I once harboured dreams of modelling modern tin plate O gauge only to realise it was out of my league finance wise. That's why I'm all in favour of Hornby's railroad approach which whilst producing cheaper models affords the ability for novice modellers such as myself to have a bash at detailing up, modifying and to build a decent collection of stock up.

 

Ultimately though, people are free to spend their money on what they want. I look forward to seeing some videos of these in action once released.

 

Greg

[The Stationmaster]

Doesn't the Brighton version fill that 'hole' in effect? The H2 has been announced, but an H1 would be relatively simple to tool up for as it was, to all intents and purpose, an H2 with the Ivatt running plate. If carefully tooled, the running plates could be interchangeable parts on the production line. That would produce two varieties for the main range.

 

As an aside, and in view of the long-standing 'feud' between LNER and Southern modellers as to which group has been the more neglected by the mainstream manufacturers, it would be interesting to know in, say three or four years time, which of the two 'families' - the ex-GNR or ex-LBSCR - of models has sold the most!

One good point in favour of the C1 is that members of the class could regularly be seen on the GWR mainline in LNER days when they worked to Swindon (off the GC via Banbury & Oxford) - so there is a sort of market there for GW modellers  .

 

I love the C1 and 251 in GNR livery would be great but I can't even afford the H2 so neither Bachmann or the NRM will be getting my money for these as much as I'd willingly give it to them I don't have it to give. My model of 4419 will have to wait.

Rhys

I understand, and sympathise with, your position but on a point of detail not even Bachmann know the likely retail price of the H2 at present as its appearance lies in the future.  It was interesting to hear, in a chat with Graham Hubbard, some details of the way wage costs have moved in China since Bachmann came into the UK market and how other costs have also rise and I think you'd need a remarkably clear crystal ball to identify the retail price of something, such as the H2, which is some way off.

 

Another  interesting feature emerged in discussion with Bachmman folk and this was in respect of information about deliveries from China and it boils down to the fact that it is extremely difficult to forecast when models will arrive in this country.  They are advised when a container leaves the factory but such is the way things are routed and can be stowed that it is very difficult to accurately predict an arrival date and depending where the container is landed can make forecasts even more difficult.