Hornby's Warley Announcements.

[rembrow]

From my recollections there were 3 versions of the Radial, one in BR early and one in BR late and the other in a non BR livery, but I can't recall what it was. There are 4 releases of the BR Hopper, 3 singles and one 3 pack which will be good for producing rakes. I'll try and get more detail when I'm next in, later this week.

[Loconuts]

 I was at my local model shop a few days ago and it was interesting that they had received a Hornby order form for the Warley announcements - Radial tanks, hoppers and LMS horse boxes, with a required ordering date that meant he couldn't leave the order until the rest of the 2015 announcements are made in 8 days time. Seems Hornby are keen/desperate to tie up orders. As he said though, relating to the Radial, if the Oxford model is better than the Hornby version, he can always reduce or cancel the Hornby order. 

There is nothing wrong in what they are asking your retailer, Hornby might only be doing those models for next year and also maybe catching up on back orders.  They also might have a slot booked at a manufacturer and need to get the figures in.

 

We are just surmising that there are a lot of new announcements in the Hornby catalogue.

 

I cannot understand why there is all this knocking of Hornby, they are a business which has shareholders and have to make a profit at the end of the day.  If prices have to go up so be it, if batch quantities have to be reduced so be it, if they find it better to supply direct so be it, if they have to reduce discount so be it.  They are not a charity so get used to it.

 

Loconuts

[Unknown Warrior]

There is nothing wrong in what they are asking your retailer, Hornby might only be doing those models for next year and also maybe catching up on back orders.  They also might have a slot booked at a manufacturer and need to get the figures in.

 

We are just surmising that there are a lot of new announcements in the Hornby catalogue.

 

I cannot understand why there is all this knocking of Hornby, they are a business which has shareholders and have to make a profit at the end of the day.  If prices have to go up so be it, if batch quantities have to be reduced so be it, if they find it better to supply direct so be it, if they have to reduce discount so be it.  They are not a charity so get used to it.

 

Loconuts

I acknowledge that Hornby are not a charity. However, in my view, it is how you do business that wins or loses you friends!

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

I cannot understand why there is all this knocking of Hornby, they are a business which has shareholders and have to make a profit at the end of the day.  If prices have to go up so be it, if batch quantities have to be reduced so be it, if they find it better to supply direct so be it, if they have to reduce discount so be it.  They are not a charity so get used to it.

 

 

To make a profit they have to have customers who trust that they know what they are doing and will return for more product.

 

They have to deliver a good product and do it when they say they will in sufficient numbers to satisfy demand at the price set.

 

I don't have a problem with them setting a price which gives them a fair return on investment, I have bought many things during my lifetime where I have chosen by quality rather than price, but i if I were a shareholder I would have a serious problem with the apparent lack of direction within the selling part of the organisation, let alone the difficulty in actually getting product from suppliers.

[rembrow]

Bearing in mind that their announcement at Warley was almost certainly due to other manufacturers already announcing models that they had planned and that they will be issuing an order list for the other 2015 catalogue items, including new versions of existing models, to retailers by Christmas, makes it surprising that they want to cover 3 items a couple of weeks in advance. You say 'all this knocking of Hornby', well unfortunately it is their behaviour that is causing it. Perhaps if you bothered to speak to retailers you would find out the degree of dislike and anger they have for Hornby's practices over the last year. Both of the retailers I know, who are the only model railway suppliers in the 2 towns nearest to me, are desperate to move to other suppliers and have done so as much as they can, with one making Bachmann its main supplier and opening an Oxfordrail account and the other now at the position where Hornby is only its 5th largest supplier by volume, doing this in order to reduce their commitment to Hornby. One has even gone as far as ordering as much of the Hornby Group range as they can from wholesalers, to hit Hornby with reduced income. You will also have seen, if you've read other feedback from retail members on this forum, that this is by no means isolated.  

So I suggest you join the real world, Hornby believes it is the best and most prolific brand in the UK market, but to many it is behaving like a 'diva', over relying on its 'brand names' as being its saviour. However no business can rely on its brand image if it fails to maintain its credibility with its customers.

[James Makin]

Hi,

Yes indeed Hornby have done the 4-VEP in revised NSE with the darker blue - i've got an,as yet, unused one in stock ready for future use.

Due to the less than perfect cab ends of the Hornby unit i'm giving some thought to replacing the ends with MJT cast versions having compared those for my 4-CIG and 4-TC. If not a full replacement of the ends perhaps just the gangway sections.

Regards

 

I think it depends on liveries, weathering and the black as on later Connex liveried units can help disguise some of the issues -

 

 

I gave my VEP the opposite of a spruce up putting it into former Connex South Central for use on Worthing MRC's Loftus Road!

 

[TheWeatheringMan]

I think it depends on liveries, weathering and the black as on later Connex liveried units can help disguise some of the issues -

 

 

I gave my VEP the opposite of a spruce up putting it into former Connex South Central for use on Worthing MRC's Loftus Road!

 

Hi,

Got to say how much you are right having looked at your photos.

That really has disguissed the faults in the Hornby cab ends.

Regretably though it wont work for my NSE one and even less for my stored Rail Blue version.

Many thanks indeed for posting the photos.

Best Regards

[Budgie]

To make a profit they have to have customers who trust that they know what they are doing and will return for more product.

 

They have to deliver a good product and do it when they say they will in sufficient numbers to satisfy demand at the price set.

 

I don't have a problem with them setting a price which gives them a fair return on investment, I have bought many things during my lifetime where I have chosen by quality rather than price, but i if I were a shareholder I would have a serious problem with the apparent lack of direction within the selling part of the organisation, let alone the difficulty in actually getting product from suppliers.

I think that Hornby need to decide whether they want to sell to the likes of us, or not. If they just want to sell to the "toy" market, and aren't interested in the sort of things that we "modellers" want to buy, then why don't they say so, so that we can go to other suppliers to fulfil our shopping lists. Also, they could reduce their range to what it was in 1960, so they don't have to invest in expensive tooling to make new items every so often, and they could produce the same catalogue year after year, as it wouldn't change.

 

Conversely, if they do want to sell to us, then they have to make sure there is enough product to go around, and it is available at reasonable prices for us to buy through our usual suppliers, i.e., through retailers and not direct from them at full price. They must realise that we are not really interested in any supply and delivery problems they may have; that is their problem and it is up to them to solve it in order to make the profits that their shareholders expect them to make.

[Revolution Mike]

it is available at reasonable prices for us to buy through our usual suppliers, i.e., through retailers and not direct from them at full price.

 

The problem there is that we want "reasonable prices" but then object when Hornby sell direct. We either complain that things are being sold at "full price" (no such thing - there is merely an RRP) or we complain that Hornby are undercutting retailers by discounting stock.

 

We can't have everything! The simple reality is that selling through retailers (quite rightly) introduces a level of margin. As production prices increase the manufacturer can:

- take some of that margin from the shops (as has happened) making life very tough for the retailers,

- or they can sell direct and keep the retail margin

- or they can increase RRPs

 

All fairly unpalatable choices...

 

Given that some of the larger retailers are quite happy to commission their own models as it suits them, then I don't blame Hornby for considering that all options are fair game and being prepared to enter the retail market when it suits them. Of course the people who get shafted are the small retailers, but that is not solely Hornby's fault.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Willie Whizz]

I find your post confusing, because you appear to be blurring the distinction between the views of ordinary 'members of the public' customers as expressed on here, and of the retailers who are voicing frustration at their inability to get stock - almost at any price - from Hornby and yet are undercut by allegedly unavailable stock suddenly appearing in non-traditional outlets at heavily discounted rates.  These views often overlap, and one side frequently sympathises with the other, but they are by no means the same issue.

[bennyboy]

There is nothing wrong in what they are asking your retailer, Hornby might only be doing those models for next year and also maybe catching up on back orders.  They also might have a slot booked at a manufacturer and need to get the figures in.

 

We are just surmising that there are a lot of new announcements in the Hornby catalogue.

 

I cannot understand why there is all this knocking of Hornby, they are a business which has shareholders and have to make a profit at the end of the day.  If prices have to go up so be it, if batch quantities have to be reduced so be it, if they find it better to supply direct so be it, if they have to reduce discount so be it.  They are not a charity so get used to it.

 

Loconuts

 

With the way that Hornby are pissing off both their customers and their retailers they are going to end up not having many people wanting to buy or sell their products, so perhaps they can get used to that.

[Ozexpatriate]

Hornby's reported dealings of late smell of a business not in the best of states, desperate for cash flow and evidence of ongoing order book to please the bean counters at the bank.

Hornby has been in a distressed financial condition for a few years now. We may not like the way they are behaving, particularly regarding their treatment of their retailers, but, absent the necessary and long-awaited improvements in their supply chain, my suspicion is that their executive management deem their choices necessary for the financial survival of the company.

[Ozexpatriate]

The problem there is that we want "reasonable prices" but then object when Hornby sell direct. We either complain that things are being sold at "full price" (no such thing - there is merely an RRP) or we complain that Hornby are undercutting retailers by discounting stock.

I find your post confusing, because you appear to be blurring the distinction between the views of ordinary 'members of the public' customers as expressed on here, and of the retailers who are voicing frustration at their inability to get stock.

I can't speak for Mike, but that's not what I read in his post.

 

We, collectively contribute to the problem by our price-sensitive behaviour, including griping about pricing.

 

I interpreted Mike's point (and many have reinforced it directly) as being that lots of people welcome Hornby selling their product at rock-bottom prices, and he quite correctly points out that this behaviour hurts the retailers too. You could argue that it is moot since by and large the retailers have little new stock, but the consumer behaviour is what it is.

[JSpencer]

Ah...of course...the 4-VEP! I'd forgotten all about that one!   I held off buying any of them due to the medicore reception it received. Didn't they do that in NSE livery? Maybe if they make improvements to it (the main criticisms were traction tyres and a poor representation of the cab ends IIRC) I might be tempted by the blue/grey and possibly NSE if that comes out again with corrections/improvements.

 

As for Braunton, now that loco in its current preserved form I'm sure would be popular. I'm really hoping they announce it for 2015!

The way I see it, if the 4-VEP Came out like this in - say - 2000, everyone would be saying "superb" "excellent" etc etc. as it was it came out after the Bachmann 4-CEP, was more expensive than it with some blatantly silly errors. Consequently with hind-site, the original pair of sets barely sold.

 

I brought a pair because basically, if they don,t sell then Hornby will probably write off the 4-VEP as a bad idea.

 

The blue and grey has been long delayed, maybe due to SK but equally plausible that orders have not been great. There is possibly a dilemma at Hornby, do they spend money retooling it knowing that they may not sell enough to get a return (the second batch of Bachmann blue grey 4-CEPs and batch of blue grey 2-EPBs did not move either - am I the only person who likes emus in blue/grey ?) or do they stay with same tooling and do a smaller batch to cover the few orders they have or do they drop the entire thing?

[Ozexpatriate]

I think that Hornby need to decide whether they want to sell to the likes of us, or not. If they just want to sell to the "toy" market, and aren't interested in the sort of things that we "modellers" want to buy, then why don't they say so, so that we can go to other suppliers to fulfil our shopping lists.

What they really need to do is fix their supply chain. This remains the root of all their problems from the Olympic souvenir fiasco to current pricing variances. Their real problem is that they are not manufacturing enough product at acceptable quality levels to meet demand.

 

They are working on it. Clearly they (and no doubt other model railway companies) miss the able Mr. WaiShing Ting (one time CEO of Sanda Kan).

[Ian Hargrave]

There is nothing wrong in what they are asking your retailer, Hornby might only be doing those models for next year and also maybe catching up on back orders.  They also might have a slot booked at a manufacturer and need to get the figures in.

 

We are just surmising that there are a lot of new announcements in the Hornby catalogue.

 

I cannot understand why there is all this knocking of Hornby, they are a business which has shareholders and have to make a profit at the end of the day.  If prices have to go up so be it, if batch quantities have to be reduced so be it, if they find it better to supply direct so be it, if they have to reduce discount so be it.  They are not a charity so get used to it.

 

Loconuts

Sir Alan Sugar would be charmed by this.Its charms are lost on me.Like most members of this forum,I make my own decisions ,taking into account well reasoned argument and civilised debate.I decide that which I find acceptable and that which I do not.Bad manners are unacceptable in any society where civilised norms apply...."get used to it" ?

[brushman47544]

Seven days to go and still very little speculation about what we might see announced and in the new Catalogue, other than what we already know from Warley. With such a lack of interest, Hornby should be worried.

[2ManySpams]

I think the constant stream of announcements from an increasing number of suppliers combined with a failure to deliver in various quarters has generated a good amount of apathy towards the annual announcement.

 

To be honest I've completely lost interest in all the froth and speculation. All very pointless if you have no idea if/when it will turn up and what the quality will be. I suspect others are in the same boat.

[Downer]

I think there's a good chance of a J50, either as a new model in the main range or as a chassis-upgraded version of the Lima one for Railroad.

[Markeg]

I agree with you Downer, but think it will be all new tooling to a high standard.

When you look at Hornby's small tank engine range, its not a patch on Bachmann.  I would put it all in the railroad range, so new tooling and motor.

That means probably close to a GBP100 for a small tank engine.  So a decent Loco I think will be in the offering.

 

Mark

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The smallest 'goodun' among Hornby's tanks is the M7, much the same size as a heavy 0-6-0T like the J50. That was never a cheap offering, as I recall it the list price very similar to the Britannia which was a near contemporary release. The price I imagine was the difficulty, working out much the same as a large named green tender loco, otherwise we might have seen a few more smaller tank locos to their best standard then prevailing. (Not that I am ungrateful for the L1, a subject never remotely expected to see get a RTR model.)

[Joseph_Pestell]

Speaking as a former retailer, I would be well ****** off with Hornby and some of their recent actions.

 

Ruining the retail distribution chain is no way for a manufacturer to ensure itself any sort of profitable future.

[Venator]

Bearing in mind that their announcement at Warley was almost certainly due to other manufacturers already announcing models that they had planned and that they will be issuing an order list for the other 2015 catalogue items, including new versions of existing models, to retailers by Christmas, makes it surprising that they want to cover 3 items a couple of weeks in advance. You say 'all this knocking of Hornby', well unfortunately it is their behaviour that is causing it. Perhaps if you bothered to speak to retailers you would find out the degree of dislike and anger they have for Hornby's practices over the last year. Both of the retailers I know, who are the only model railway suppliers in the 2 towns nearest to me, are desperate to move to other suppliers and have done so as much as they can, with one making Bachmann its main supplier and opening an Oxfordrail account and the other now at the position where Hornby is only its 5th largest supplier by volume, doing this in order to reduce their commitment to Hornby. One has even gone as far as ordering as much of the Hornby Group range as they can from wholesalers, to hit Hornby with reduced income. You will also have seen, if you've read other feedback from retail members on this forum, that this is by no means isolated.  

So I suggest you join the real world, Hornby believes it is the best and most prolific brand in the UK market, but to many it is behaving like a 'diva', over relying on its 'brand names' as being its saviour. However no business can rely on its brand image if it fails to maintain its credibility with its customers.

 

My local retailer (an independent model shop) says Hornby are their best and most helpful supplier (they stock Hornby, Bachmann, Dapol etc). I'm sure largely depends on the relationship between the retailer and the rep who deals with them.

 

Feel free to disagree, I'm just saying what my 'local' have to say when I've asked them.

[Multiple identity account]

My local retailer (an independent model shop) says Hornby are their best and most helpful supplier (they stock Hornby, Bachmann, Dapol etc). I'm sure largely depends on the relationship between the retailer and the rep who deals with them.

 

Feel free to disagree, I'm just saying what my 'local' have to say when I've asked them.

Hi Venator,

 

I for one will agree totally to what you say. Each individual (be it person or shop) is bound to have a different experience. I've been buying Hornby models for the past 16 years. I've bought from both local hobby shops and also direct from Hornby and I've never faced a single problem with Hornby. Whereas with Bachmann I've had quite a few issues (wasted too much on returns and all that). That however doesn't make me hate them. I can still get a Class 47 and 37 from ViTrains, Mk1s and Mk2Es from Hornby and so on and so forth... Incidently I've never had an issue communicating with Hornby (or other manufacturers) also.

 

Hornby have been going through some troubled times over the last 3-4 years. Rather than going on bashing Hornby I find have patience and being understanding a key to being happy. Nothing is going to be perfect. At the end of the day it is a hobby and it's not controlling my life. 

 

I am happy waiting for Hornby to get back on their feet and I surely look forward to seeing them there soon.

 

Cheers!

AJA Models.

 

PS: Feel free to disagree, but this is what I've seen over 16 years. I will stand by Hornby for I still get my quality products from them.

[Multiple identity account]

Seven days to go and still very little speculation about what we might see announced and in the new Catalogue, other than what we already know from Warley. With such a lack of interest, Hornby should be worried.

Most of the main announcements were made. And people (if you read carefully) have pretty much narrowed in on speculation of further announcements. Most probably upset about duplication, however I feel it was bound to happen due to the wishlist polls.