Hornby's Warley Announcements.

[paulbb]

One year a maker will build one of the lovely Hawksworth panniers (94XX,16XX either will do) - not to mention Scottish pre-group

classes from the LNER (J36,37), or the lovely Caley 4-4-0 , 0-4-4 classes, 0-6-0 Jumbos. But the Scots ones are regarded as a 'minority'

and geographically limited (not like the Adams radial of course). So I am not hopeful.

[Unknown Warrior]

The last new LMS locos from Hornby were in 2007 (The Stanier 2-6-4T and the rebuilt Scot/Patriot) Since then just the CCT. Fortunately Bachmann have kept the faith! However there are one or two pickings left: How about a design clever Turbomotive?

 

Oh and could we have a rerun of the Stanier Period 3 Coaches in BR Marroon, perhaps with a few additions to the range?!

[davidw]

I've no idea what Hornby will produce -  though I'm sure we've been given cryptic clues. 

 

For my region and period of interest, what I'd like then to produce is an A2/3 - they've shown that Thompson machines will sell, and with a common chassis between this and the A2/1 and A2/2 this would close the gap of  ECML express locos. The chassis with minor mods would also be suitable for a V2.

 

But I suspect Hornby will play safe with a retooled B12 if any ECML stuff appears at all. 

 

Coaching stock: if anything I'd like to see a Gresley RF. But I'll be happy if further Mk1's are  offered FO, BSO and RB would be nice.

[cctransuk]

But if before any design is undertaken, no scans produced, no development of any kind undertaken. They announce I'm going to build X.

 

...... and then be castigated for taking half, or a whole, decade to develop and release a model.

 

I heard of Hornby's interest in the Adams Radial well before any of the latest generation Pullman cars were released - they were mentioned at the same time, as well as the Brighton Belle and many more of the recent releases.

 

How many years ago was that ?  I can't remember ! What I do know is that we now live in a financially very different world from those days.

 

Many members here SERIOUSLY underestimate the time between a model being decided upon and its release - think in large fractions of decades, not years.

 

I am in the fortunate position of having the time and the research material to receive a suggestion for a transfer sheet after breakfast, and sometimes be able to have it ready for sale by evening. It ain't like that in the RTR market.

 

All the best,

John Isherwood,

Cambridge Custom Transfers.

www.cctrans.org.uk (NOTE NEW URL)

[GNR Dave]

I thought Hornby didn't do exhibitions anymore. How are they 'displaying at Warley'

[Unknown Warrior]

I have to say that this busyness of duplication really bothers me. At the end of the day I want the best model available, which might not be the first one released. For example I did not buy the Hatton's 10000 because I felt that Bachmann's version would be better. Fortunately I was right so it was worth the wait.

 

The Adam's Radial is one many of us have been waiting for a long time (I just wish I had bought the 00 works version, I very nearly did. Since then I have bought all three of their LMS offerings: the two MR 2Fs and the L&Y Saddle Tank and have been pleased with all three). If we now have the possibility of up to four versions of the Radial, how do you make a choice. Possibly on the track record of the manufacturer, but that would not be giving Oxfordrail a chance, or do you wait and see and then not perhaps get the version you want? I know what I want: The version as preserved at the Bluebell in LSWR Livery. Currently of course I don't know if it will even be available! In my view it just puts even more uncertainty into a crowded market place and may mean more of us will hold back and not preorder as freely as we have done in the past. The customer has to consider cash flow, just like the manufacturer.

 

If there are to be four Radials then that is three other prototypes that will have to wait for another day.

 

Just a few thoughts.

[Mike Bellamy]

I thought Hornby didn't do exhibitions anymore. How are they 'displaying at Warley'

 

 

Stand B25 - looks like a large stand in the middle of the hall

 

http://thewarleyshow.co.uk/pdf/Hall%20Plan%202014.pdf

 

 

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[wombatofludham]

I don't buy the idea that Hornby are about to revamp or retool their 90 in competition with Bachmann.  Firstly, it doesn't boil water, Hornby's idea of "modern image" (whatever that means) are Southern milkfloats that are older than Methusulah's granddad, albeit lovely models that they are, or Tornado, which admittedly is more "modern image" than a 2-BIL.  Secondly, the class were not designed by the LNER or Southern.

 

It would be nice if they revisited the LMS and extended the coaching range, a range of just one style of suburban coach to the standards of the two ranges of LNER suburban would be nice, we're not greedy, and a LNWR George the Fifth to tie in with the project to build a replica, would be splendid, a pretty 4-4-0 would fit their range nicely.

[Karhedron]

Many members here SERIOUSLY underestimate the time between a model being decided upon and its release - think in large fractions of decades, not years.

It is true that sort of time-frame may often be the case but it is not necessary. A model can go from idea to sale in around 2 years. For an example, look at the models produced on commission for the N Gauge Society. They announced their model as a K45 in October 2012. In the intervening time they have changed it to a K41 after Farish announced they were producing the K45 as part of their range of Hawksworth coaches.

 

We have received the first batch of decorated samples and hope to see the finished models arriving in Q1 2015. That is less than 2.5 years from making the decision to the model reaching customers. That time included a change of prototype and also all the R&D since a preserved K41 had to be located, the owners asked for permission to measure it up etc.

 

Dave Jones of DJM is also working to timeframes of around 2 years. Granted he has not released a model yet but we have seen EPs of his first announcements and there is no reason to believe he cannot stick to this schedule.

 

The point being that model development does not have to take as long as some companies are taking at the moment. By moving slowly and taking 5+ years from decision to release, they drastically increase the risk of duplication.

 

The most expensive part of model development is the tooling and this is pretty much the point of no-return. Prior to that, the work has been done on CADs and money wasted by dropping a product would be around £10K. Granted this is not trivial but for a big manufacturer, it may be less than the money they would lose if the product was duplicated by a rival.

 

My point in all this is that manufacturers should streamline their R&D processes and then make announcements once they are ready to "cut metal" and produce the toolings. If they did this, not only would it radically reduce the risk of duplications, it would minimize the financial risks of duplication since the less advanced manufacturer would have less to lose by backing out of a particular model.

 

Operating in this way would not be any form of cartel or collusion and would not be anti-competitive. It would benefit manufacturers by reducing the risk of duplication and it would benefit modelers by reducing the time from announcement to release. What it would require is for manufacturers to adopt a more agile development model.

[Mallard60022]

S15.     Pah, wrong again.

P

[Lochinvar]

I'm not sure that it's RM members that are under-estimating the timescales. If anything,many on here appear to have a more realistic take on things than the manufacturers - and some of the big retailers (one,in particular,with their misleading "Soon" tag).

 

DR

[DJM Dave]

It's an interesting debate,

 

The problem I see for Hornby is justifying to their shareholders why they have decided ( if they duplicate models already announced or even produced by others) to essentially acknowledge that their dividends will drop because they won't be selling as many as they originally envisaged.

 

Once the shareholders start asking those questions, then I would imagine a change of policy by Hornby.

 

However I have heard that there will be duplication in the next announcements, and one could be the 71!

Luckily I'm the only one to scan and measure the real thing though ;-)

[DJM Dave]

After all the hot air released, i'll grab my crystal ball for a closer look at Hornbys new model announcements...

Ahh the clouds are clearing, or is that the froth...

 

I see a GWR King, knew about that, maybe a duplicate Adams Radial, a duplicate class 71, an LNER pre-group 0-6-0 tank, a Southern 4-6-0 and one other. Oops the clouds are back.

 

Would like that other one to be a Bullied 4 Sub, fingers crossed.

 

Off the Hornby track, still hoping for the SECR Wainwright D Class as next years Bachmann/NRM model to complete their set of pre-grouping 4-4-0's (the have already got the tender), and dare we hope for an H Class, I believe that they measured it up on the Bluebell when they were researching the E4.

Or is this just wishful thinking adding to the froth.

That's a damn good Crystal ball you have there, or perhaps we share the same source?

[SDJR7F88]

After a resent announcement something tells me Hornby may have a new 14xx, 48xx and 58xx on the card...

[Express Blue]

After all the hot air released, i'll grab my crystal ball for a closer look at Hornbys new model announcements...

Ahh the clouds are clearing, or is that the froth...

 

I see a GWR King, knew about that, maybe a duplicate Adams Radial, a duplicate class 71, an LNER pre-group 0-6-0 tank, a Southern 4-6-0 and one other. Oops the clouds are back.

 

Would like that other one to be a Bullied 4 Sub, fingers crossed.

 

Off the Hornby track, still hoping for the SECR Wainwright D Class as next years Bachmann/NRM model to complete their set of pre-grouping 4-4-0's (the have already got the tender), and dare we hope for an H Class, I believe that they measured it up on the Bluebell when they were researching the E4.

Or is this just wishful thinking adding to the froth.

 

 

Is your crystal ball based in Margate perchance?

[Oldddudders]

The fact that things like the Radial tank appear so highly is because a lot of the engines of the time period have been done. If your taking the Southern by example, a rebuilt Merchant Navy, and rebuilt West Country are there, as are schools, Lord Nelson's, T9, Wainwright-C class thingies, Greyhounds or something or other, Q1, N-15,  SNIP and a USA dock tank. You have the entire range more or less covered from top link to slam door and transition diesel or ED too. This means the whole transition layout is possible and that is why the market is driving towards that period, its also the same in other regions, especially when people want pre-grouping engines that lasted till the end of steam, or near enough.

 

A quick count in Williams' and Percival's "BR Steam Locomotives from Nationalisation to Modernisation" reveals that BR inherited over 70 different classes of steam loco from the Southern Railway. I think we can agree your list doesn't quite reach that figure. Suggesting that the Southern steam fleet has been "done" if an 0415 appears is stretching things a little.

[Revolution Mike]

Hornby's twitter feed has silhouette's of various steam engines which I presume will arrive or be announced this weekend. No idea if any of them are new.

 

 

Cheers, Mike

[Andy Y]

'Fraid not Mike; they're the same ones (Crost,K1,D16,Black Motor,J15) which were shown at RMweb Live  apart from the J15 but it looks like those will have later livery samples on them.

[Wild Boar Fell]

Mike,

They are the Crosti 9f, K1, D16, 700 & J15  announced this year.

Regards,

Wild Boar Fell

 

Too slow again!

[The Black Hat]

A quick count in Williams' and Percival's "BR Steam Locomotives from Nationalisation to Modernisation" reveals that BR inherited over 70 different classes of steam loco from the Southern Railway. I think we can agree your list doesn't quite reach that figure. Suggesting that the Southern steam fleet has been "done" if an 0415 appears is stretching things a little.

 

I can agree the list I did doesnt reach that figure, but then its also ludicrious to suggest that companies would model every single one of those 70 at the expense of engines from other regions when some examples from eslewhere would sell more than the part of the 70 you quote that remain.

 

The fact is that the broad range has been done. You can model anywhere pretty much in the southern region and the line would look more or less accuarte and realistic because of the amount of stock that has been produced. With what I listed above you have the broad range of a locomotive fleet. Now with comissions such as the radial tank, and engines to come like the E4, Black Motor, and someone will plum for the S15, the Southern range has been done because not only are the steam models produced but also slam door stock, diesels and EDs. Coaching stock is also there as are wagons. Its all there ready for you to buy and model!

 

Other areas dont have that range. There are massive gaps in locomotive fleets for different regions and although others are noticing the trend into Eastern region machines, it still leaves massive swaithes of the territory not covered to any extend remotely close to what the Southern region fans currently enjoy. The Midland and Western are well supported too, with the former getting attention from Bachmann, but of course wish list polls and the companies own research show which engines are in demand. With so many modelling the Southern region because it has been done it means shops are confident to invest in producing models to cater for the novel engines that the market wants because they know many people model that area and as a result the demand is there.

 

Companies such as Hornby and Bachmann are opening up new areas as the contenders for choice become all the more interesting when the popular ones have been covered. Modern techniques means that some engines produced some years ago only need the chassis upgrade to meet the current standard. Bachmann have opened up the GC area, expanding into GN. Hornby have gone for GE, but the North East region and Scotland dont get anywhere near the attention of others despite significant polling in wish lists, but I believe they are slowly moving northwards.

 

To honestly suggest that the Southern region hasnt been done, when you compare it with elsewhere is more than stretching things a little.

[The Black Hat]

Hornby's twitter feed has silhouette's of various steam engines which I presume will arrive or be announced this weekend. No idea if any of them are new.

 

 

Cheers, Mike

 

Id recognise a K1 anywhere and looking at the silouette it looks a damn sight nicer than any of there otheres there.....

[Mad McCann]

I reckon Tim Dubya's nailed it.

[Dunsignalling]

S15.     Pah, wrong again.

P

I consider that Hornby have shown no urgency in producing an S15 because their main competitor has historically made so few Southern models that they don't consider there is any real threat that they will beat them to it.

 

Bachmann no longer ignore things Southern to the same degree as in the past but appear to be concentrating their efforts further East. So far, they have displayed no inclination to making anything originating on what both companies seem to regard as Hornby's home territory - Eastleigh and the LSWR.

 

Maybe Hornby is right and there is no danger of a Bachmann S15 but, fortunately, some newer entrants to the 4mm scale r-t-r loco market are displaying no such reticence.

 

Hopefully, one of them will snatch the prize from under the big boys' noses!

 

John  

[lapford34102]

and one could be the 71!

Luckily I'm the only one to scan and measure the real thing though ;-)

Hornby, nee Tri-ang were there long before you were Dave.

http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/OO%20Latest/MinicRailwayA.htm

 

Suspect they already have enough info already to make a fair stab at it, after all they do

have a bit of experience of pre-lidar model making...... :-)

 

Stu

[phil gollin]

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The Black Hat  :-

 

...........  To honestly suggest that the Southern region hasnt been done, when you compare it with elsewhere is more than stretching things a little.

 

.

 

No, unfortunately I think you are not looking at the southern in the most popular (????) modelling era (post nationalisation to the end of steam).

 

There are PLENTY of basic gaps in coverage of Southern steam, small and large tanks and medium sized 4-4-0s and 0-6-0s, as well as a couple of old models which could do with updating, and that is NOT including the models which came near the top of the recent poll.  A lot of classes lasted through to the end of the fifties and very early sixties  -  it is just that the "end of steam" saw a very limited number of classes last in any significant numbers.  

 

Ultimately the manufacturers have to go with what sells, and I  PRESUME  that the southern orientated items are selling (and polling) well and hence will continue to attract  interest.

 

I hope that your particular preferred model(s) sell and that that will attract attention to your favoured region, but I do not know anyone who can make any authoritative statements about such matters.

 

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