NR suspend WCRC from tonight

[roger440]

Isn't the real issue here that the Driver missed an AWS signal and therefore the AWS initiated a brake application. Instead of accepting that and reporting to the signalman as required the crew disabled the AWS to continue and did not report the incident.

 

My question is what was the footplate inspector doing when all this was going on?

No, its not. Its is, i suggest, symptomatic of the ineffective management structure which allows such actions to take place. The NR report makes that pretty clear.

[Edwin_m]

The company procedures should be capable of addressing failings by an individual.  This should preferably be by detecting propensity to inappropriate behaviour and taking corrective action before a critical error is made.  But if a dangerous incident happens it should certainly include cooporating with the investigation and taking action to prevent re-occurrence. 

 

This looks very much like a case of the company failing in its duty to do one or more of the above things, which means its Safety Management System is either defective or not being applied correctly. 

[woodenhead]

The SMS is the difference between playing trains and operating trains.

 

In the last dispute NR came out looking like a professional outfit, I don't think anything had changed since last summer.

[stewartingram]

If WCR have been suspended due to irregularities in their safety procedures, surely this would be looked upon as a company wide issue? So does this include the maintenance regime I wonder; if (for instance) their safety checks on coaches were thus suspect (at the moment) then should these coaches be allowed out on the main line, to be used by (say) DBS to cover for a WCR charter?

 

Stewart

[roger440]

If WCR have been suspended due to irregularities in their safety procedures, surely this would be looked upon as a company wide issue? So does this include the maintenance regime I wonder; if (for instance) their safety checks on coaches were thus suspect (at the moment) then should these coaches be allowed out on the main line, to be used by (say) DBS to cover for a WCR charter?

 

Stewart

It would be for the new operator to be satisfied that the stock was suitable for use on the network. The responsibility would lie with that new operator.

[Gary H]

Isn't the real issue here that the Driver missed an AWS signal and therefore the AWS initiated a brake application. Instead of accepting that and reporting to the signalman as required the crew disabled the AWS to continue and did not report the incident.

 

My question is what was the footplate inspector doing when all this was going on?

It was considerably worse than that though. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/dangerous-occurrence-at-wootton-bassett-junction-Wiltshire

An 'awkward' first mistake was quickly turned into a potentially catastrophic disaster through actions by the crew. (hence my comments above in post #62)

It wasn't just Wootton bassett   but it was the straw that broke the camels back.

[Boris]

West Coast don't run with an inspector.

As I understood it with WCRC the Driver is also the inspector?

[woodenhead]

So the acid test; would you currently be happy to be on a mainline train hauled by WCRC traction and crew?

 

I wouldn't.

[PhilH]

I would now the eyes of the world are on them.

[PhilH]

As I understood it with WCRC the Driver is also the inspector?

Obviously in the context of the previous post I meant no separate TI.

[Bon Accord]

So the acid test; would you currently be happy to be on a mainline train hauled by WCRC traction and crew?

 

I wouldn't.

 

I would.

Then again it would seem I'm one of the ever reducing number of blokes these days who isn't afraid of monsters under the bed, the dark or spiders.

[John 37]

The statement released today by WCRC indicates that all trains will continue to run as scheduled, by an alternative operator.

That leaves more questions than answers, and many trips already cancelled.

You wouldn't be able to use any of the same crews I presume, and would DBS crews have all the route knowledge etc for the routes?

It seems a strange thing to promise, and not as easy to implement as West Coast have made it sound.

Actually leaving them to it might teach them a bigger lesson as this was a long time overdue.

[woodenhead]

I would.

Then again it would seem I'm one of the ever reducing number of blokes these days who isn't afraid of monsters under the bed, the dark or spiders.

To put it another way, would you be happy in the back seat of a taxi, if the driver was ignoring warnings and driving through red lights and then finally coming to a stop inside a road junction where the opposing route was a national limit dual carriageway.

[Bon Accord]

To put it another way, would you be happy in the back seat of a taxi, if the driver was ignoring warnings and driving through red lights and then finally coming to a stop inside a road junction where the opposing route was a national limit dual carriageway.

 

You haven't spent much time abroad, have you?

[Ian Hargrave]

I count four outings to date. ...the last one being a 46233 hauled round trip Crewe-Shap-Carlisle-Aisgill-Crewe last October which was wonderful.Let's see what happens with professional industry investigation before feeding WCRC to the prophets of doom. Some of us seem to be making judgement before the outcome  is known.Leave it to those who have the knowledge and responsibility please.That is their remit and not ours.We do not know the complete set of circumstances in any case.

[PaulRhB]

So the acid test; would you currently be happy to be on a mainline train hauled by WCRC traction and crew?

 

I wouldn't.

They have some excellent crews I've worked with, This isn't the first TOC /FOC to have someone isolate things instead of temp override. As CK said in an earlier post it's a suspension not the end at present. Don't tar all with the same brush. There will be a full investigation of the incident that led to the issues that caused the suspension and until the review date I don't think there's much else to add but speculation.

[Ian Hargrave]

To put it another way, would you be happy in the back seat of a taxi, if the driver was ignoring warnings and driving through red lights and then finally coming to a stop inside a road junction where the opposing route was a national limit dual carriageway.

I take it you won't be making any Heritage Steam  trips soon,then.Your analogy strains the limit of credibility.Lets try to see this settled in the hard,logical atmosphere of a professionally conducted process without responding to emotive reactions.What has happened is obviously disturbing but remember a lot is at stake in the future of WCRC,including people's livelihoods and the continued flourishing of main line steam.

[45156]

Interesting debate here, ladies and gents, and I have to say that as one who lives near the WCRC depot at Carnforth, I do meet up with some of the staff, and can see two sides of coin. The company is run by Mr Smith, and is run Mr Smith's way is an impression that I get from some of the conversations which I've had.  He certainly does seem to have ruffled some feathers at NR over the years.

 

I have been on WCRC specials from time to time, and have seen a few incidents, particularly surrounding loco failures - on one occasion, the steam loco which was booked ran a hot box on a loaded test run, was allegedly repaired, and then ran the same hot box in passenger service the following day, so regardless of any testing and certification, it would appear at first glance that it was not totally fit at all.

 

I'm not in the game of knocking WCRC as I've had a number of trips with them, and always felt totally safe up till now, though some of their mk1 coaches do creak a bit at speed.  I sincerely hope that WCRC can resolve this matter amicably and quickly, as WCRC does offer a service to the railway industry, and also caters for a niche market with their steam and non steam charter business.

[bgman]

So does it make a nonsense of this I saw this afternoon on the way home, posted at Exeter St.Davids ?

 

 

Just wondering !

[Steve-e]

Compass tours have issued a statement http://www.compassrail.co.uk/download/important.pdf

 

So it looks like their tourshttp://www.compassrail.co.uk/ should be running which is good I dont think the general public will care too much on the colour of the loco up front except on Steam tours perhaps.

 

Steve

[PhilH]

So does it make a nonsense of this I saw this afternoon on the way home, posted at Exeter St.Davids ?

image.jpg

Just wondering !

Not necessarily, depends who gets the contract. We ran the Torbays last year with DBS.

[jeff mcghie]

Compass tours have issued a statement http://www.compassrail.co.uk/download/important.pdf

Steve

Its the same (badly worded) statement put out by WCR, just a different logo.

 

Jeff.

[Boris]

Its the same (badly worded) statement put out by WCR, just a different logo.

 

Jeff.

If that is supposed to be a professionally written letter somebody needs to go back to school.

[acko22]

Having read the thread and the attachments, it appears NR have a number of serious concerns and the SPAD may have been the final straw.

 

While I feel sorry for anyone who has a booking with WCR that may no longer have a trip to go on or there is a change in traction (Diesel instead of the promised steam) I totally understand the actions NR have taken.

If WCR fail to meet the standards then sadly they have to be informed that they are not allowed to operate, I am sure everyone will agree with me that the safety of everyone is the number one concern.

 

Until NR are fully satisfied that all safety critical criteria is met then I whole heartedly agree that they should ban an operator until they are happy that the criteria is met.

 

As for drivers been involved in a SPAD which seems to have been the final straw for NR well I am sure that like any responsible operator they should be looking at the whole incident and if found that the driver was to be at fault deal with the individual as appropriate and if not then looking at the systems in place to avoid any future incidents by improving them.

 

To say that the ban is purely down to a single incident would be a bit of a misgiving as every company has had them no matter what traction or what type of service and you haven't seen DB, Virgin or the like been banned from operating.

 

While the investigation is on going and until NR release their findings I don't think there is much that can be drawn from any pre conceptions apart from the simple factor that NR do not feel that WCR are operating within the safety guidelines that are demanded of them.

[woodenhead]

I count four outings to date. ...the last one being a 46233 hauled round trip Crewe-Shap-Carlisle-Aisgill-Crewe last October which was wonderful.Let's see what happens with professional industry investigation before feeding WCRC to the prophets of doom. Some of us seem to be making judgement before the outcome  is known.Leave it to those who have the knowledge and responsibility please.That is their remit and not ours.We do not know the complete set of circumstances in any case.

  

They have some excellent crews I've worked with, This isn't the first TOC /FOC to have someone isolate things instead of temp override. As CK said in an earlier post it's a suspension not the end at present. Don't tar all with the same brush. There will be a full investigation of the incident that led to the issues that caused the suspension and until the review date I don't think there's much else to add but speculation.

What I find sad about this whole situation is that it is the future of steam rail tours and rail tours in general that could be at stake here.

 

It seems that one man's opinion about how he is treated and his attitude towards how his company should be run is at the heart of all this. When you are in such a dominant position in the industry as WCRC seem to be you would do anything to maintain that position and not having a good SMS seems completely at odds with being the premier choice of rail tour operator.

 

I often travel past Carnforth and I think it's wonderful that in out current plastic railway there still exists what is in effect a traditional TMD maintaining and operating classic traction be it diesel or steam. I wouldn't want WCRC to go under as it might not get replaced and we would all be a little but poorer without it. But that doesn't mean it can operate to different standards to all those other train companies it shares space with and I am sure the owners of steam locomotives want to confident their possessions would be returned undamaged as well as the general public being happy to finish a journey without incident.

 

No one has been injured so far but the SPAD was a close call and we could be having very different discussions at the moment had that express been a few minutes late. I am sure in a month WCRC will get its licence back but I hope that it's owner realises now that it's people's lives he is gambling with if his SMS is not up to scratch and he isn't ruthless in ensuring his staff adhere to the rules.