NR suspend WCRC from tonight

[acko22]

I would have to agree with Paul there are some great steam drivers out there who were only a twinkle in their parents eye in the days of BR steam.

 

A quote I once heard from a neighbour who drove steam and was later foreman at Longsight (many years later) "Driving a steam engine properly isn't a skill its an art", just because they don't do it day in and out doesn't mean they won't have the abilities of their predecessors it's like riding a bike you never forget just some of us are better than others.

 

As for what naughty things people have done, well the days of getting away with it are over so we all have to play by the rules now and hope there are nice people in the right places (like Paul) who will let the steam trains keep rolling and not have to stop behind every late running service!

[Captain Kernow]

Back in the mid-1990s I do recall a particular run on the main line 'somewhere in Devon and/or Somerset' with a rather nice steam loco that had been built 'in a large engineering works somewhere in Wiltshire', and where rumours soon started up that they had exceeded the maximum permissible line speed for the section of line concerned. Imagine the surprise on the face of the loco inspector when I told him sometime later that train speeds were recorded on the hot box detector equipment located in the panel!

[brushman47544]

It's a whole different ball game now....you can't just exceed speed limits for the hell of it, everything is recorded on OTMR and modern day footplate crew are accountable for everything.

 

It always amazed me how early holiday trains from the West Country used to arrive at Paddington when I saw them in the late 70s/80s. Those that were non stop from Exeter or Taunton could be up to 20-25 minutes early. Clearly some of that will have been unneeded recovery time, but on the few occasions when I travelled line speeds were exceeded. As you say Phil, that would not be accepted on today's railway. I understand why, but in the past experienced drivers could perfectly safely exceed a speed limit by a small margin to make up a bit of time, which now they cannot do. I'd call it de-skilling...

[Hobby]

I'd call it de-skilling...

 

I don't agree, speed limits are there for a reason and did those older drivers know why the speed limit was set as it was and had the knowledge to understand the implications of lots of trains going over that stretch of track in excess of that speed and what it could do to the formation? I doubt it. I suspect the old PW guys used to curse the "speeders"!There are other ways of getting time back other than speeding, the driver that does things that way uses just as much "skill" as the one that pushes the boundaries of speeds on curves...

 

Then there's the effect on the passengers, I can remember one time going over Shap in pre electric days pulled by a double headed 50 and being flung around as the driver tried to emulate Stirling Moss, that trip was neatly summed up by a BR guy sat at a seat with some of his mates travelling on the cushions who said "Who needs electrics with this prat up front!", which I felt summarized things quite well...

[Glorious NSE]

Here's a question...

Does the ability to nowadays be more confident that speeding doesn't (or shouldn't) happen allow PW engineers to work to a tighter margin (and so improve line speeds for everyone on the same infrastructure?)

For example, if you have a curve capable of being negotiated safely at 90, did they used to put 70 on it as they knew that every so often somebody would chance it at a higher speed and they needed a big margin of error?

[The Stationmaster]

It always amazed me how early holiday trains from the West Country used to arrive at Paddington when I saw them in the late 70s/80s. Those that were non stop from Exeter or Taunton could be up to 20-25 minutes early. Clearly some of that will have been unneeded recovery time, but on the few occasions when I travelled line speeds were exceeded. As you say Phil, that would not be accepted on today's railway. I understand why, but in the past experienced drivers could perfectly safely exceed a speed limit by a small margin to make up a bit of time, which now they cannot do. I'd call it de-skilling...

They made up time because they were usually slackly timed and very often running out of path and thus finding a suitable path which didn't exist on paper but did in reality because other trains weren't where they were supposed to be.  It really is not very easy to exceed the permanent speed restrictions on the Berks & Hants, even with an HST which has power in hand, as the result is considerable passenger discomfort and complaints.  But it was possible in loco hauled days to beat the point-to-point times in numerous places and I used to do it almost every morning east of Reading on the Up on a train timed for 90mph but with 95mph stock and loco.

 

A bit over 40 years ago I had a trip on the Pullman up from Cardiff one morning - we ran into Paddington 12 minutes early, without exceeding any speed restrictions and purely because we'd got to Wootton Bassett before time and Swindon panel gave us a run.

 

Equally with modern steam running generally the timings are slack and are thus easy to beat if conditions are right.  And don't forget that normally steam engines running on the mainline are in tip-top condition and (usually) burning very good coal so they are both steaming and riding well which encourages good running.  The only adverse factor is the tendency to heavy loads which doesn't help but provided a Driver and Fireman have good road knowledge, the weather is good with good rail conditions, and nothing untoward happens, then no doubt time can be gained, in fact I would be more surprised if it wasn't.

[phil-b259]

Here's a question...

 

Does the ability to nowadays be more confident that speeding doesn't (or shouldn't) happen allow PW engineers to work to a tighter margin (and so improve line speeds for everyone on the same infrastructure?)

 

For example, if you have a curve capable of being negotiated safely at 90, did they used to put 70 on it as they knew that every so often somebody would chance it at a higher speed and they needed a big margin of error?

 

As I understand things, the maximum speed through curves is mainly related to the amount of cant or tilt the p-way engineers can put in (Hence the APT concept). This in turn is actually governed by the slowest trains - not the fastest so you cannot add a 'safety margin' at the top end without risking serious problems at the bottom end of the speed profile.

 

Thus the answer to you question would be a firm No.

[Hobby]

As an aside I remember in the early 70s using an LM railrover to travel from Preston to Euston on a Sunday (and back via Paddington - Birmingham!), they must have cancelled all the engineering works as we arrived at Euston 2 hours early! A feat I've not yet managed to emulate since I became a guard unfortunately!  

[Pacific231G]

I would have to agree with Paul there are some great steam drivers out there who were only a twinkle in their parents eye in the days of BR steam.

 

A quote I once heard from a neighbour who drove steam and was later foreman at Longsight (many years later) "Driving a steam engine properly isn't a skill its an art", just because they don't do it day in and out doesn't mean they won't have the abilities of their predecessors it's like riding a bike you never forget just some of us are better than others.

 

 

Isn't currency (how long since you last drove) also a factor? It is for flying and that's also an art as much as a skill. It's not necessarily about doing it every day but skills do deteriorate with time if not practiced even for people with plenty of experience . An experienced person won't need very long to bring their skills back up to .scratch but what happens if a driver  hasn't driven for over say a month, would they need some sort of check?

[pete_mcfarlane]

And don't forget that normally steam engines running on the mainline are in tip-top condition and (usually) burning very good coal...

Talking about the supposed end of mainline steam, a couple of years back wasn't it apparently finished because there wasn't any coal of the right type? And those prophesies of doom turned out to be wrong. 

[acko22]

David,

 

Totally agree with you about the currency of a driver is also a big factor. I am guessing you fly and on that note you will know as well as I do the drivers who have the ability pick things up very fast and are back in the zone quickly enough.

As for checks while I cant say the defacto timescale answer I know drivers do have to complete competancy training every so often, for modern traction they have to do it on routes and tractive types. For steam I would imagine they have to do it with each class also as tornado and another steamer for example would be 2 completely different beasts to work on.

[Reorte]

For steam I would imagine they have to do it with each class also as tornado and another steamer for example would be 2 completely different beasts to work on.

Wasn't unfamiliarity a contributor to the Blue Peter incident?

[PhilH]

Slightly different on mainline steam ops. Bear in mind on a steam engine you have the same bits to twiddle albeit in different places on different locos. So basically driving technique stays the same.

 

This is where the owners rep is a useful tool to have on the footplate. We are not there as passengers simply to look pretty and wave at people (as some seem to think). We are there to pass on relevant information about that particular engine, where everything is located, where we would like to see the water level etc. We are there to help diagnose problems quickly as we usually know the engine better than the supplied crew and to generally assist the crew with the running of the loco in an advisory capacity. We do not get involved with the running of the train, that is nothing to do with us, we do not interfere in how they do things unless we feel it is detrimental to the engine. Even then we have to be as diplomatic as possible.

 

The point of all of this waffle is that modern day steam drivers do not perhaps have to be as current on a particular class of engine as you would imagine.

 

To a large degree a steam engine is a steam engine is a steam engine.....

 

Wasn't unfamiliarity a contributor to the Blue Peter incident?

As was ignoring the advice of the owner's rep

[Pacific231G]

David,

 

Totally agree with you about the currency of a driver is also a big factor. I am guessing you fly and on that note you will know as well as I do the drivers who have the ability pick things up very fast and are back in the zone quickly enough.

As for checks while I cant say the defacto timescale answer I know drivers do have to complete competancy training every so often, for modern traction they have to do it on routes and tractive types. For steam I would imagine they have to do it with each class also as tornado and another steamer for example would be 2 completely different beasts to work on.

I do fly, it's my other hobby, but I've known people with superb handling skills who I wouldn't let anyone I care about fly with. For thoser who do develop it judgement seems to come with experience; research seems to show though that handling skills depend far more on currency than total hours. I don't know how that balance of skills and judgement works with steam loco drivers though.

[The Stationmaster]

Isn't currency (how long since you last drove) also a factor? It is for flying and that's also an art as much as a skill. It's not necessarily about doing it every day but skills do deteriorate with time if not practiced even for people with plenty of experience . An experienced person won't need very long to bring their skills back up to .scratch but what happens if a driver  hasn't driven for over say a month, would they need some sort of check?

Probably one of the most important factors.  And what's more it isn't really over much going over a route on diesel or electric traction as the sort of road knowledge you need for steam working - on other than a billiard table - isn't what you need for modern high-powered traction.  The impact of gradients for example is a different kettle of fish when running steam compared with a diesel (which might not even notice many of them and when it does it doesn't present big problems) whereas on some roads the profile can be very important for loco handling and, especially, water management.

 

As PhilH has said the Owner's Rep is there to deal with any technical niceties and problems and a good rep will know the engine really well which can be a useful input to handling sometimes.  But road knowledge and, as you call it, currency, is probably one of the most important elements in running and one where a good Traction Inspector who really knows the road well can be a big help as two heads are probably better than one in that respect.  (Hence when assessing for working over norms [=currency over a road] for steam working the first thing I would do is ignore the figure for diesel etc working.)

[The Stationmaster]

Talking about the supposed end of mainline steam, a couple of years back wasn't it apparently finished because there wasn't any coal of the right type? And those prophesies of doom turned out to be wrong. 

Easy enough to find suitable substitutes if you look, not so easy if you're writing the cheques.  Some years back there was a private pit in South Wales producing ideal coal for GW engines, only trouble was it cost about 3-4 times as much as the next nearest (Russian) equivalent, guess which one folk chose once they knew about the Russian stuff and where to get it.

[royaloak]

It doesnt matter how good the driver is if the fireman isn't up to the job, working a steam engine is a team effort and all 3 have to play their part or it isn't going to work. 

[Edwin_m]

As I understand things, the maximum speed through curves is mainly related to the amount of cant or tilt the p-way engineers can put in (Hence the APT concept). This in turn is actually governed by the slowest trains - not the fastest so you cannot add a 'safety margin' at the top end without risking serious problems at the bottom end of the speed profile.

 

Thus the answer to you question would be a firm No.

There is a maximum amount of cant permitted, which is influenced by what happens if a train stops on the curve.  Within this limit the cant actually chosen for a particular curve is influenced by the mix of speeds operated over the curve, and the amount of acceptable "cant deficiency" which corresponds to the lateral forces felt by the train and passengers.  Trains running faster than the "equilibrium speed" where the cant deficiency is zero for that curvature and cant will cause wear on the outer rail, while those below that speed will wear the inner one.  I guess it is possible to get higher speeds at the cost of greater rail wear. 

 

However this isn't directly relevant to the previous point about whether less tendency to speeding allows the engineers to set a higher speed for curves.  I guess in theory it could be, but I'd be surprised if it is.  The permitted cant deficiency, and hence ultimately the speed on a curve, is defined by passenger comfort and well below the level where there is a risk of the train overturning.  As Stationmaster says, excessive speed round curves is likely to give rise to passenger complaints (and probably buffet staff complaining about breakages!) so any speeding would probably have taken place more on the straighter sections. 

[kenw]

On the matter of driver's experience, it's worth baring in mind that it's basically 50 years since the end of steam in regular service in most areas, and not far short of it totally. Plus in those last areas passing out on steam would probably have ceased a couple of years or so beforehand. This puts even the most junior regular firemen past retirement, and given the time taken to become a driver in the steam era, well past retirement for drivers. In the Newcastle area it's now a few years since the last former firemen finished, and many years since for former regular steam drivers. So all current steam crews must be preservation era. (It's actually a few years now also, since the last regular drivers passed on Deltics finished).

There has of coarse, as already noted, still been some outstanding performances. One in particular that I experienced was the first running of the 'Coronation' railtour (weekend Kings X - Edinburgh return with the 3 working A4s). Northbound with Sir Nigel Gresley he topped Stoke Bank at 70, with 12 or 13 on! And this was from keeping to the 75 limit on the approach to the bank. I said afterwards that I always thought Stoke was uphill Northbound

[kenw]

Wasn't unfamiliarity a contributor to the Blue Peter incident?

As was ignoring the advice of the owner's rep

 

As was poor planning and operations.

 

It was autumn so leaf mold contamination.

Added to which it was a very damp evening, making rail conditions abysmal

The start's on a steep rising grade, which starts from half-way along the platform.

It's also on a sharp curve which adds to the drag.

The load was 12 coaches.

It had a driver unfamiliar with the engine or route, and a conductor driver unfamiliar with steam.

 

It was normal practice with steam for anything with over EIGHT on to be BANKED away from there,

and that was with regular crews used to handling such engines there on a daily basis.

 

The A2's the most powerful express steam loco?

On the conditions that evening, a 91 would have difficulty lifting it's train from there,

even with it's 6000hp, and southbound being at the rear so has the whole train passing over the rail ahead of it,

as well as modern wheelslip control and sanders.

[luckymucklebackit]

As was poor planning and operations.

 

It was autumn so leaf mold contamination.

Added to which it was a very damp evening, making rail conditions abysmal

The start's on a steep rising grade, which starts from half-way along the platform.

It's also on a sharp curve which adds to the drag.

The load was 12 coaches.

It had a driver unfamiliar with the engine or route, and a conductor driver unfamiliar with steam.

 

It was normal practice with steam for anything with over EIGHT on to be BANKED away from there,

and that was with regular crews used to handling such engines there on a daily basis.

 

The A2's the most powerful express steam loco?

On the conditions that evening, a 91 would have difficulty lifting it's train from there,

even with it's 6000hp, and southbound being at the rear so has the whole train passing over the rail ahead of it,

as well as modern wheelslip control and sanders.

 

Wonder if the driver was also familiar with the practise of stopping hard in these stations with all buffers pressing hard together, I hear that this was a required method at several locations.

 

Jim

[Siberian Snooper]

Wonder if the driver was also familiar with the practise of stopping hard in these stations with all buffers pressing hard together, I hear that this was a required method at several locations.

 

Jim

 

On a visit to York on a joint ARPS and the PWI, we were informed that the  practice there in steam days was to stop with everything buffered up and once stopped was for the hand brake in the rear guards compartment to be screwed down to stop any creep, until the RA. This also put everything on the outside rail and reduced the drag against the inside rail when getting away.

 

I suspect that even today it would be good practice to keep everything on the outside rail, but i don't know if this is possible with modern traction.

[PenrithBeacon]

This matter seems to have been resolved, see http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/statement-network-rail-revoke-west-coast-railways-suspension-notice

 

Regards

[beast66606]

This matter seems to have been resolved, see http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/statement-network-rail-revoke-west-coast-railways-suspension-notice

 

Regards

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/97861-nr-suspend-wcrc-from-tonight/?p=1882313

[kenw]

Wonder if the driver was also familiar with the practise of stopping hard in these stations with all buffers pressing hard together, I hear that this was a required method at several locations.

 

Jim

On a visit to York on a joint ARPS and the PWI, we were informed that the  practice there in steam days was to stop with everything buffered up and once stopped was for the hand brake in the rear guards compartment to be screwed down to stop any creep, until the RA. This also put everything on the outside rail and reduced the drag against the inside rail when getting away.

 

I suspect that even today it would be good practice to keep everything on the outside rail, but i don't know if this is possible with modern traction.

 

The Blue Peter incident actually happened just beyond the viaduct, so how it was stopped in the platform would hardly be relevant, and with buckeye coupled stock buffering up would be minimal, and you certainly wouldnt get the buffers pressed hard together.

Buffers are required to be retracted out of use when a buckeye coupling's in use, hence HST Mk3s and Mk4s which only operate in fixed rakes arent fitted with them.

 

In steam days there was a loco stationed at Durham specifically for banking departing trains up to Relly Mill. At the time of this incident there was still drivers who'd been through there on steam, who said it was normal practice to bank out anything with over eight on. There opinion was that he should never have been expected to restart with that load and in those conditions without banking assistance.

 

No, such a technique would be neither possible nor acceptable with modern traction. Modern passengers expect a nice smooth stop which requires a releasing brake and a minimal brake applied on coming to a stand. Also parking brakes are interlocked to prevent you trying to obtain power unless they're released.