roger440 Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I would suspect it's highly unlikely that the AWS was isolated on the move. It wasn't. Because it sounded again AFTER the TSR according to the report. The TPWS though? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rods_of_Revolution Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 What I suspect we don't know until the report comes out is how intentional that action was...? I'm only familiar with modern stock, but I can't imagine the situation in the cab would be too different from modern stock, which makes it basically impossible to accidentally isolate or accidentally override the AWS once an application has been made by the system (or before an application for that matter.) Usually the isolators will be out of the way, high up on the back wall of the cab, protected with glass/plastic seals, or for example in a HST Power Car, they are even more out the way in the clean air compartment. This means under normal circumstances action to isolate such systems has to be deliberate, which it should be! If they put the AWS isolation switch next to the switch for the hot plate, you could end up isolating the AWS and being left with no hot water to make a brew, a real worse case scenario! It'll certainly be an interesting report to read, as most RAIB reports are. Kindest Regards, Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
11B Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I see that on Realtime Trains WCR 5Z62 Carnforth Steamtown to York Holgate sidings was activated at 08:01hrs this morning, and still showing as a WCR service! http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U55308/2015/04/03/advanced I wonder if it will run, no other WCR service that is meant to run today from Carnforth have been activated? May have to nip down and see.... Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR(S) Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I see that on Realtime Trains WCR 5Z62 Carnforth Steamtown to York Holgate sidings was activated at 08:01hrs this morning, and still showing as a WCR service! http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U55308/2015/04/03/advanced I wonder if it will run, no other WCR service that is meant to run today from Carnforth have been activated? May have to nip down and see.... Ian When a train is activated on RTT, it doesn't mean it will run. It's only definitely running if it shows a departure time somewhere on the timings list. Not sure why some RTT pages say something like the page will be updated if the train is activated on the system but others just make it look like the train is running. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I'm only familiar with modern stock, but I can't imagine the situation in the cab would be too different from modern stock, which makes it basically impossible to accidentally isolate or accidentally override the AWS once an application has been made by the system (or before an application for that matter.) I think what I was getting at was whether the crew knew it was continuing to run with both systems isolated after their intervention rather than whether the intervention was accidental. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted April 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 3, 2015 I see that on Realtime Trains WCR 5Z62 Carnforth Steamtown to York Holgate sidings was activated at 08:01hrs this morning, and still showing as a WCR service! http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U55308/2015/04/03/advanced I wonder if it will run, no other WCR service that is meant to run today from Carnforth have been activated? May have to nip down and see.... Ian The giveaway is that it was activated exactly 2 hours before departure time. 'The computer' seems to do this automatically (presumably to protect the path on the day?) on an awful lot of trains. There are many many DBS (and presumably other FOC's) trains that are activated every day even though they don't actually run. If the train has been activated > 2 hours before departure it shows someone has actually made a manual input and there's a good chance the train is actually running. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Richard E Posted April 3, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 3, 2015 I see the notice says they still have to pay track access charges - do these apply even if a service fails to run? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted April 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 3, 2015 The giveaway is that it was activated exactly 2 hours before departure time. 'The computer' seems to do this automatically (presumably to protect the path on the day?) on an awful lot of trains. There are many many DBS (and presumably other FOC's) trains that are activated every day even though they don't actually run. If the train has been activated > 2 hours before departure it shows someone has actually made a manual input and there's a good chance the train is actually running. Auto activated paths - I don't know the details but there are paths which can be set to automatically activate, and this is 2 hours before departure - as you say it doesn't mean they will run. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ruggedpeak Posted April 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 3, 2015 I see the notice says they still have to pay track access charges - do these apply even if a service fails to run? Need a lawyer to wade through the contract, but as this appears to relate to a failure to meet certain standards by WCR, they could well be required to pay the charges as it is not NR's fault that they are suspended and can't operate. All guesswork, but failure to pay the charges may break the contract or at least trigger serious implications for WCR. NR have put the necessary paths etc in place and incurred costs to do so, so they should be able to charge for work they've done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 It's not about a single incident though it looks like it was the final straw for NR. Yes, I suspect if you read through this sorry tale http://www.accessdisputesrail.org/New%20ADC%20Web/Access%20Dispute%20Adjudications/ADA20%20Documents/ADA20%20determination.pdf from the Rail Access Disputes arbitration scheme you will get a feel for how the Network Rail-WCRC relationship has been heading for some time. Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 No sympathy If the safety systems laid down by the infrastructure operator call for certain actions (no matter how idiotic they seem) then that's what you do if you want to remain part of the industry - end of story............................. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gary H Posted April 3, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 3, 2015 No sympathy If the safety systems laid down by the infrastructure operator call for certain actions (no matter how idiotic they seem) then that's what you do if you want to remain part of the industry - end of story............................. Indeed. I've said it before, if you make a mistake on the railway, stop the job and hold up your hands and normally everything will be OK. Woe betide you though if you try and cover it up and get found out! I've seen it happen many times over the years and it never ends well. On this occasion it was by the grace of god that 2 train loads of people went home unharmed that day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Surely if you rely on automated systems then the need to LOOK at the signals is reduced and the driver will be less vigilant (human nature?). We now seem to be saying that we can turn off these systems and still drive the train? Sorry for non-informed speculation. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Surely if you rely on automated systems then the need to LOOK at the signals is reduced and the driver will be less vigilant (human nature?). We now seem to be saying that we can turn off these systems and still drive the train? Sorry for non-informed speculation. Ed Which, I'm sorry to say, is what that is. The driver's primary responsibility is to observe and act on all signals. The "automated systems" - AWS and TPWS - are back-ups in the event of the driver's failing in that responsibility; they are not a substitute for it and must not be relied upon. In fact, if either of those systems does actually intervene, the driver is obliged to account for his actiuons, or lack of them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted April 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 3, 2015 You can turn off the systems but there are strict instructions on speed, sometimes a second competent person and only to the nearest point it can be taken out of traffic. You don't run normally. These are safety systems and they do occasionally fail so you have to have a bypass to get the train clear. The instruction to contact the Signalman means they can take into account any risks and implement the procedures to temporarily replace the protection the automatic system provides. It's not about AWS and TPWS breeding complacency, in fact quite the opposite drivers are very aware of the consequences of setting them off. There's only a problem if you do it regularly or due to not following the rules of driving. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted April 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 3, 2015 Everything you could ever want to know here, in this case sections 1 & 2 http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Rule_Book/Rule%20Book%20Modules/TW%20-%20Train%20Working/GERT8000-TW5%20Iss%205.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I've seen on Facebook that DB have stepped in with traction on at least one service due this weekend. Wonder how many others it will pick up in the coming weeks, I don't generally follow who does what rail tour so I don't know DB's general involvement in them, are they still common or is it something that DB doesn't generally do? The fact that WCR walked away from work it was doing with NR to improve it's procedures makes you think this is a top down issue or there is a serious disjoint between the owners/directors of the company and it's general management that allowed such a situation to develop. The resolution to this problem might involve more than just putting new procedures in place, to regain the confidence of NR, railtour organisers and the general public who will travel on it's trains it might require a change in management of the company, even a sale to new owners with a record of safety. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium skipepsi Posted April 3, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 3, 2015 It is our railway and if you are not prepared to play our way you won't play on it .Seems to me perfectly straight forward the company has a different attitude to NR but NR has the power not the company. They could make the company install a safety team they believe in before addressing the issues arising, if only to demonstrate to their insurers that they have done everything possible to reduce risk. The notice sets out what has to be done and is explicit on what has to be done before the ban is lifted, it also sets out what actions need to be progressing. I think if the company try for legal review rather than compliance NR will bankrupt them rather than accept them as they are. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Since making that post I have been reading the AWS/TPWS thread, and I think the following are interesting Re the double yellows etc., it was possible to run all the way from Waterloo to Woking in the evening peak on double yellows all the way at 75 mph+. At times you could see the tail lights of the train in front as well as the next couple of signals and adjust speed accordingly. Continually pressing the AWS reset every 40 seconds was a pain in the bum. So yes, you can get a bit blasé about it. TPWS grids are in rear of the signal to which they apply - i.e the train passes over the grids before it reaches the signal (or platform stop blocks or whatever else the grids are there for). If you are used to driving on double yellows - and it is common on some parts of the network due to lack of capacity - it is a situation which demands which levels of Driver concentration but because of the repetitive nature of continually resetting the AWS it almost encourages the opposite because it becomes not necessarily blase but almost a sort of automatic reaction. It is possible, and quite safe, to run at speed on double yellows but it can easily, and quickly, turn into a trap hence the search for and development of far more sophisticated systems such as ERTMS. which is what I was trying to say Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 It is our railway and if you are not prepared to play our way you won't play on it .Seems to me perfectly straight forward the company has a different attitude to NR but NR has the power not the company. They could make the company install a safety team they believe in before addressing the issues arising, if only to demonstrate to their insurers that they have done everything possible to reduce risk. The notice sets out what has to be done and is explicit on what has to be done before the ban is lifted, it also sets out what actions need to be progressing. I think if the company try for legal review rather than compliance NR will bankrupt them rather than accept them as they are. And that is before the ORR get involved! Mark Saunders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I suspect most of those might be the same person I can't see that happening either somehow. So who owns the company? Apparently WCR are now saying all services will run using their coaching stock but with another operator providing the traction/crews - must be cheaper than the penalties for refunding and compensating all the rail tours planned with WCR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Done a bit of Googling (well not much) David Smith. And there were issues between WCR and NR last year over the Scarborough expresses. Link to an adjudication on the dispute: http://www.accessdisputesrail.org/New%20ADC%20Web/Access%20Dispute%20Adjudications/ADA20%20Documents/ADA20%20determination.pdf Hmm, this looks like the culmination of a list of disputes between the two parties. So if we have someone who feels aggrieved with his treatment by NR then he might have to put in some additional management to put distance between himself and NR to improve the relationship. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meil Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Isn't the real issue here that the Driver missed an AWS signal and therefore the AWS initiated a brake application. Instead of accepting that and reporting to the signalman as required the crew disabled the AWS to continue and did not report the incident. My question is what was the footplate inspector doing when all this was going on? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted April 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 3, 2015 West Coast don't run with an inspector. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Isn't the real issue here that the Driver missed an AWS signal and therefore the AWS initiated a brake application. Instead of accepting that and reporting to the signalman as required the crew disabled the AWS to continue and did not report the incident. My question is what was the footplate inspector doing when all this was going on? And ended up stopped across a high speed junction luckily after an express had crossed the junction and not before. Having read the adjudication above it looks like there is a long term concern about WCRs Safety Management. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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