Should we build layouts for us...or for others...

[bcnPete]

Had an interesting conversation with a friend over a couple of pints the night before I exhibited my 2FS KoL layout at the BHMRC show in May last month. He was a modeller but hasn't done so for almost 25 years of late. He was basically questioning what I was and what we (the hobby) are doing to encourage the future younger generation to embrace the hobby.

 

I outlined that my own interests (BR blue early eighties) stem from trying to recreate extracts from my own upbringing, spotting days and bring back some happy memories from the past. I am pretty limited in what I like and whilst I appreciate good modelling, at shows I normally do a quick tour and then come back to the layouts that resonate with me...usually BR blue ones

 

His response was that his son (about 14/15) would most likely visit a show, completely bypass my small shunting layout and seek out something along the lines of:

 

- a roundy roundy

- something moving at all times

- rolling stock representative of today's railways

- DCC / sounds

 

My layout does none of that!

 

He was of the opinion that for the hobby to survive then we had a responsibility to try and encourage the younger generation, rather than build models which not only satisfy oneself but a small group that remember that era.

 

Of course I disagreed with this. Whilst I still travel by train these days and have an acute awareness of today's rolling stock, I have no interest to recreate this and I know that my enthusiasm would dry up fairly rapidly. Most of my layouts these days are extracts from the prototype as I really enjoy the research element of the hobby, especially uncovering new pics of rolling stock from said era or an article on a particular line.

 

I also think that having different layouts is what makes an exhibition interesting...different eras, different scales etc. If the majority of layouts were all as above then it might be a tad boring! I am currently building my two teenage sons a 4mm shunting layout and the rolling stock is all BR blue which they love! No brainwashing there then

 

My friend and I ended the conversation by agreeing to differ and I said that I would continue to model BR blue and I threw him down the challenge to make a layout such as he suggested for exhibit in two years time...which of course he declined!

 

Just thought I would share it and wondered if we can have a discussion about it.

 

Pete

[HillsideDepot]

That's an interesting point. However, given the way shows are run at the moment why should I build something I don't like?

Currently exhibitions pay travel costs and provide overnight accommodation if appropriate, but exhibitors pay for the layouts and rolling stock. If we all said "OK my new layout will do 15 shows, so I will add on 1/15th the cost of building it to my expenses" I very much doubt it will go to one show let alone 15. And if we're starting to think like that, do we cost in our time as well?

I've done several shows which donate their proceeds to charity and as they tend to be fairly local I'll usually decline the expenses when they come around. That's my choice, and my way of offering something back for an enjoyable weekend "playing trains" usually with an appreciative audience. But its not always so, some shows quibble over expenses and make assumptions of requirements; shows which have the sole aim of raising funds for the organising club. That already feels a bit like they're living off my goodwill, and now I have a responsibility for the future of the hobby too?

 

I hope I don't sound mean, and I'm certainly not against encouraging young entrants; I've nearly 15 years experience doing various volunteer leader roles in the Scout Association and working with young people is important to me. I am more than happy to engage with young people at shows, and indeed will try to start a conversation if they look interested in my dirty blue 1970s diesels!

 

But the "I'll do it my way" attitude might mean we're not encouraging the new comer, and without new blood it's arguably downhill all the way. Although, perhaps we should ask, why do we start building model railways? Is it the desire to replicate what we see (or saw) on the real railway? Or are we modellers who happen to find trains interesting? Trains rather than aircraft, or ships, or indeed dolls houses.

It's an interesting question...

[Ramblin Rich]

These are interesting thoughts and there's obviously no right answer as different people build models for different reasons*; some like to 'make an exhibition of themselves' whereas others prefer a solo 'stay at home' approach. The actual design of a layout is another factor - I can allow only so much space, which probably means an oval setup; so, then, do I design it so the optimum viewing is from the inside (ie from my own, operators view) or outside (as for any potential viewers) - if I can't actually commit to having a layout of exhibition standard, I must do something that will satisfy myself first....

 

 

* or don't build but prevaricate endlessly - what, me...?

[steve1]

Your friend appears to be basing his research' on a very small reference group, thereby making it meaningless. I have been exhibiting for more than 30 years (blimey that sounds pretentious even if is true) with small, non DCC layouts in a varity of prototypes but have had all sorts of young people, girls and boys, expressing an interest.

 

In addition, I'm d*mned if I'm going to build a layout to someone else's edict, especially someone who can't be bothered to build it themselves.

 

steve

[naturol]

Its not only teenagers or small children that are capable of walking straight passed a layout and not give it a second glance, I have exhibited a variety of era from Corperate blue, through to modern image, and settings from actual real location suburban stations, to industrial, and it's generally the adults that are more likely to walk by,

Children are influenced by their piers, encouraged and assisted, and have detail pointed out to entertain them.

Their attention span may be short but the duty of responsibility must surely lie with parents to give their offspring as many opertunities and experiences to allow them to form their own path.

So. Encourage your pal to lead by example, I look forward to seeing him at a show with his son, or seeing his model in print, but I guess I shouldn't hold my breath.

 

Paul, building what I like........

[bcnPete]

In addition, I'm d*mned if I'm going to build a layout to someone else's edict, especially someone who can't be bothered to build it themselves.

 

So. Encourage your pal to lead by example, I look forward to seeing him at a show with his son, or seeing his model in print, but I guess I shouldn't hold my breath.

Paul, building what I like........

Exactly! What I should have made more clear in my original post, is that we had the beers/conversation the night before I exhibited and the conversation got under my skin a little that night and through the next day whilst exhibiting...so when he rocked up in front of my layout...and his son gave it about 30 seconds before moving on, that's when I threw down the challenge to him!

 

I will be seeing him in a few weeks time and I will bring this up with him again and reiterate that he takes it on as a project

[Reorte]

Obviously build your layout for whatever reason you want to, you're only doing it for the wrong reason if you're not getting any enjoyment from it.

 

What will get children interested - the obvious answer seems to be "ask them!" I don't necessarily think that it needs to be current day in order to seem relevent to them, since many simply aren't interested in the railway these days. They may be interested in a different one though, whether that's another time or country. And a lot will depend upon just what age you're thinking about.

[BG John]

Unless you're building a layout specifically to exhibit for a particular purpose, like educating or entertaining kids, build what you want for yourself.

 

But, if you have exhibiting in mind when you build it, you need to consider both the practicalities of making it exhibitable, like baseboards you can transport, viewing angles etc., and have to decide if you can live with any compromises that entails.

 

Ultimately though, it's the exhibition manager who invites you, and they're responsible for the market research etc.. It's up to them to choose layouts that will achieve whatever objectives they have for the show, and the audience they want to attract. If they want lots of kids, but invite layouts kids won't like, it's their problem, not yours!

[Clive Mortimore]

Something similar came up in the Lunester Lounge thread the other day. Save you all from the antics on there this is what I wrote.

 

"It goes back to the old agrument, are exhibition layouts to entertain the public or to display our modelling skills. A well made and operated model should be able to do both.

 

I am a modeller not a card carrying member of EQUITY."

[kevinlms]

Sometimes, individuals or clubs might want to build a layout that strictly speaking DOESN'T interest them, but still a good idea to do so.

 

A typical case in point was my clubs' Thomas layout. However there was quite a bit of discussion on exactly HOW we built it. Some members wanted basically a bare boards twin (or more) track oval, where the kids would do do 'what they always do' and just run trains around flat chat. Thereby making any scenery irrelevant.

 

What won out in the end was a 'typical' oval with a station, goods yard, loco depot, extra track work & full scenic treatment. The idea was to show parents what could be done on a fairly modest budget. It is INVARIABLY run as a twin track oval, even though the rest of it does properly work, we don't do so, as it is too stressful on the layout manager.

 

The 2 controllers look like a stud contact type of controller, with a large child friendly handle, behind which are electronic controllers, set so that trains cannot run fast enough to derail on the bends.

 

Certainly NO ONE ever complains that, what we did was wrong!

[hayfield]

The fact is that only those who are involved with large clubs/groups can exhibit large layouts, as man power is needed to transport and show a layout

 

Some smaller layouts do attract large crowds but usually have some form of hook to capture the attention, this may be sound, stunning scenery, well lit at eye level etc

 

Layouts for children to play with are very popular with younger ones and clubs like the Model Railway Club have areas where young people can have a go and build something. This could be developed into a build (and run) a layout in a weekend (a 6' x 4' CJF plan may be a starting point)

 

As for ones own layout, it has to be something you are interested in. Far too often layouts are not finished as interest is lost in building it due to many reasons (normally when a problem arises) and stumbles when other things (which do interest you) take their place

 

Modular layouts may be a way forward, but it must be hard to keep things on the go most of the time. 

 

The problem of providing a stream of new enthusiasts/modellers into the hobby, must be taken up by both modellers, clubs and manufacturers. To that extent both shows and layouts are an important tools to enable this to happen

[Kris]

You should be building a layout for yourself first and others second. If you do it the other way round it's likely that you will loose interest fast. 

Thankfully everyone likes different things, so that come exhibitions, there tends to be some thing for all. Just imagine what an exhibition would be like if all the layouts were small shunting planks, or all BR Blue roundy roundy. It would be a touch dull. 

[bcnPete]

All valid points raised here.

 

I certainly don't get offended if people walk straight past my layout(s) that I have exhibited without a passing glance as it does not interest them - as mentioned in my OP, I always do an initial scan of an exhibition and come back to my favourites. We all like/appreciate different things which is a great part of this hobby.

 

Whilst I am making my sons a 4mm layout and I certainly don't want to force them into this hobby...if they can have fun with it then so be it but if it's not their thing I won't be offended.

 

I think the hobby these days is up against mobile phones, tablets, PS3's etc. all distractions that we didn't grow up with - if my two can keep themselves from looking at a screen for 15 minutes then I feel something of an achievement!

[olivegreen]

For every layout seen at an exhibition, there must be dozens at home which are built purely for the pleasure of it and which will never be seen outside - nor, quite likely, by anyone else but the owner. For that reason alone, as Kris and others have said, layouts should be for yourself first and others second…if at all.

 

That said, it is from seeing layouts in magazines and at exhibitions that many of us get our inspiration of what can be done and what to avoid.

 

I am generalising, I know, but we surely have to admit that for the young today, what the older among us might see as gimmickry is in fact the norm. But 'gimmickry' comes at a price - even bcnPete's friend's son's roundy-roundy controlled by DCC plus sound (which in that context only, I would call a gimmick - I'm not knocking DCC in general) would not be cheap to acquire. 

 

I would suggest that the young whom we are trying to attract do not generally have the skills, patience, desire or time to build the sort of detailed layout with scenery that impresses by its art, and would be discouraged if they had the slightest inkling of the dedication it takes to achieve such a result.

 

My conclusion from this is that exhibitions should perhaps include some simple flat-board layouts of the 'train set' type, with little scenery - perhaps just a bit of painted board and a few ready-to-plonk buildings - all RTR of course, DCC if thought necessary etc etc... and with perhaps an idea of the cost and time involved in building it displayed so the paying parent can see what he or she is potentially in for.

 

But what exhibition organiser is going to risk this, given the likely criticism from the more elitist among the paying visitors? And what magazine editor is going to publish an article on the same lines?

[ParkeNd]

I would say that people of any age visiting a model railway exhibition are already interested in model railways. How likely is it that you will visit a sewing exhibition to find out if you are interested in sewing?

 

Most people judging by the mad dashes when an exhibition opens its doors are there in the hope of buying more locos at low prices from the manufacturers own stands. The layouts are really an added benefit rather than the main attraction and may succeed in converting an existing modeler to a new gauge or a new technique.

 

Despite being an N Gauge modeller I found the The International N Gauge Show ((TINGS) boring - the low detail and compromises required to make layouts portable made them "worse" in my eyes than home layouts, and several layouts bandied about by the cliques that can exist in our hobby were a huge dissapointment. Warley with its chance to see multiple gauges is a much better use of an exhibition.

 

So I think layouts should be built for the builders reasons, and tiny shunting planks at exhibitions are just a waste of time - they make me feel conned when "more than 100 layouts" turns out to be 60 layouts plus 41 shunting planks. The exhibitors are there to display their skills to the over 50s after they have stuffed their bags with cheap returned locos. Whilst I might have thought at one time we had a chance to create a large population of new 14-35 year old modellers I am now of the opinion that new 60-65 year old recruits is more likely. They are already rich in life skills and can spot a poor layout or one with no action at 10 paces and walk straight past.

 

Magazine articles and forum threads pictorially showing layouts developing seem much more suitable than exhibitions for drumming up new recruits. Exhibitions are great for blokes days out away from the missus.

[PLD]

YOU should build a layout for yourself - one that is going to maintain your interest during building and you are happy to spend upto 8 hours a day playing with.

 

The Exhibition Manager should select layout for others tastes not just their own. A good show will have a balance to have something for everyone, and not be full of identical layouts of any style or era...

[Giles]

I build exactly what I like and find interesting, and if it then so happens that others feel the same, then it will get exhibited. It has proved in the past that people of all ages appear to have enjoyed my layouts - but I certainly wouldn't dream of dumbing down a layout for anyone - and I don't think anyone would actually thank me for it either..... I've never had a complaint (or observation) that my layout was boring for kids- or anyone - NOT that it is aimed at that at all.... I model what I enjoy, but I'm glad if others enjoy it too.

 

I must say that layouts take a great deal of time, and I certainly wouldn't spend that time on something that I really didn't want to do.

[HeeleyBridge]

If you don't build YOUR layout to suit YOU, then what the hell are you building it for?  We've seen the results of trying to please other people right here on RMWeb, in AndyP's  Bitton thread.

 

As for getting kids involved, you just have to give them the opportunity, not just to look and watch. If they show ANY interest at all let them DO something.

 

Sadly, my own sons were not interested, or not interested enough, to take up the hobby. The oldest sometimes muses over "a big train set in the loft".

 

His six year old daughter loves trains. She loves model railways and the roundy roundy has already lost its appeal. She wants shunting, scenery and detail. She also wants to do it herself, but granddad is allowed to help with knives etc. Building kits is now getting under way.

 

I have no idea how long it will last, but she has already booked me for the Sheffield Model Railway show in October and is planning a visit to the NRM and Loughborough in the meantime. Ooh my poor aching wallet.

 

Crowd pleasing large roundy roundy layouts at exhibitions should be the preserve of clubs, manufacturers (those were the days) and retailers.

[Kylestrome]

The answer the OP's question is embodied in Rule No. 1. 

[PaulRhB]

Exhibitions are generally about providing an overview of the hobby not one specific group. Imagine the GWR branchline show taking in as much? You have to accept not all will be to your taste at a show as its deigned to satisfy hundreds of different peoples particular slant on the hobby. That issue regularly comes up in here with people trying to redefine shows despite them actually working! Yes shows get it wrong and if they do it regularly or spectacularly then they will succumb to market forces.

Warley is hated by some, irritates others but there are still thousands who go every year and make it viable.

 

You can't please all of the people all of the time, and you'd be mad to try

[Boris]

I agree absolutely with Paul says there, exhibitions are there to entertain and also to ideally break even, or better still make a bit of money for the host/organising club.  I got out off one show a few years ago which had 22 layouts, 12 of which were depicting fictitious GWR branch line termini in 4mm, suffice to say I've not been back since and neither have a number of other people I know.  Having operated exhibition layout on and off for 20+ years I've got to say that one of the key questions you should ask yourself when planning a layout to take to exhibitions should be "is this layout interesting enough operationally to keep me amused for 8 hours a day" as there is nothing worse than a beautifully constructed layout staffed by someone who is bored out of their brain and can't wait for the day to end!  Likewise there's nothing more likely to put people off a layout than no movement on it for significant periods of time.

[jcm@gwr]

I've only built 1 layout specifically for exhibiting,

and, yes, it's a shunting plank!

But, the concept was to engage newcomers to

the hobby, the controls are on the front.

 

It's 0 gauge, and it was built to prove a few things

(mostly for myself), e.g. to show that scale can be

compact, and built on a budget. Also, it was my first

go at building track (Marcway 3-way, & copper-clad

track) and using slow motion point motors.

 

I've only done a few local shows and there is always

a queue waiting to 'Havatry' (the layout's name!), not

always youngsters or novices, either!

 

My next one will possibly be a Timesaver (as against

the current Inglenook), but, it doesn't get used much

at home, where I still trying to build my shed based

00 gauge layout (12' x 8'). I'm also very involved with

my club's 39' x 16', 4 track, 0 gauge roundy with 2

branches off (3 termini). 

[Reorte]

Thinking back to kids it's not just Thomas whizzing around at F1 speeds that'll get them interested. Perhaps it was an exception but I'm reminded of something I saw a couple of years ago at the Stockport show. The layout in question was a short O gauge BR blue shunting plank, with quite a few locos on it, all getting in each others' way to give a bit of a shunting puzzle. Two children had been let loose on it, and one was on the controls and the other standing at the end of the layout carefully waving him on and getting him to stop at the right place. The exhibitor said they'd been at it for ages, trying to swap the places of two locos, but they clearly hadn't got bored and wandered off. What worked there I think was involvement and something to actually try to do instead of play with randomly.

[johnb]

I build layouts to suit me! Yes I do exhibit them and enjoy the interaction with all ages. I do give some thought to the presentation for exhibitions, but the aim, if exhibiting, as has been said above, is to enjoy operating for 6 to 8 hours a day for two days.

 

My view is that my layout is my take on the hobby, if people like what they see that's great, if they don't well that's their choice which I respect. I enjoy the design and build process and like to present it at shows.

 

John

[bcnPete]

and tiny shunting planks at exhibitions are just a waste of time 

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one I am afraid - My last two 2FS layouts have both been less than 2 metres in length and both have been well received at exhibitions.

 

These days I don't have space to accommodate much more at home but I like to exhibit them to help try and convince people that you don't need a big space to enjoy this hobby and that you can still have some fun in the process.

 

The Shunting Plank, BLT, MPD and Roundy Roundy are all part of the mix that makes up an exhibition IMHO. Granted, I might only have an interest in one or two of them, but its all about choice I think