Cooper craft - Cautionary notes for customers - Its fate and thoughts on an alternative

[Bucoops]

I really want a quint set or 3...

[TheTurfBurner]

In all serious, where does a consumer rights issue end and fraud begin? This is much more sinister than an amateur being way out of his depth.

 

Brief update - I have reported Dunn/Cooper-Craft to Action Fraud at: https://www.actionfraud.police.uk/report-a-fraud-including-online-crime-questions Report made on 21 November and I have a crime number and pro forma reply that they will contact me again within 28 days with information on what action they have taken. 

 

I have also reported him to Trading Standards through the Citizens Advice web site as well as writing again to Worldpay and his web site host Sinclaire Knight: http://sinclaireknight.com/services/printing/ - in both cases quoting the crime number and suggesting, for the sake of their reputation, they should not be doing business with an alleged fraudulent trader.

 

I will keep you advise of developments (if any). 

[Bucoops]

I've also reported him to trading standards.

[billbedford]

In all serious, where does a consumer rights issue end and fraud begin? This is much more sinister than an amateur being way out of his depth.

 

 

I think people here should keep a sense of proportion here. Paul Dunn, for all his faults, is not exactly a second Robert Maxwell.

[Bucoops]

Small time or not, allowing money to be taken for goods that you have no ability to supply and then refuse to refund - in my personal case it took about 5 or 6 requests - I'm no legal legal but that smells of obtaining money by deception, which as an offence I understand has been replaced by fraud as a general term.

 

I think anyone who is owed money would prefer to just get it back, but assuming the above stories are true (I have no reason to believe otherwise, especially after the trouble I had) and he is unwilling to refund then other routes need to be looked at.

 

It's a sad state of affairs

[Willie Whizz]

I think people here should keep a sense of proportion here. Paul Dunn, for all his faults, is not exactly a second Robert Maxwell.

So, Bill, to turn the tables: if you supplied a customer with goods before his cheque was cleared; and it bounced; and when you tried to get your stuff returned or the money paid, he laughed in your face, dared you to do your worst and told you where to go ... and then from talking to other small suppliers you learned he'd blatantly done the same to them ... I wonder whether you'd be quite so calm about it.  Sometimes the amount of money involved is quite immaterial to the emotion generated by the sheer attitude.  Been there myself (in another context), but also indeed used to work for a business Robert Maxwell did the equivalent to (for millions), as well as having an Aunt whose pension he busted, so worn the t-shirt both ways.

 

Sooner or later, Mr Dunn will upset a railway modeller who really can't keep a sense of proportion; and instead of firing-off an angry e-mail to RMWeb they will take ... well, shall we just say, rather more direct, robust and personal action to enforce their rights, since the Law seems completely effete and helpless in such matters.  I suppose I should say I wouldn't approve, and indeed  I suppose I wouldn't really ... but somehow the words seem to be rather sticking in my throat; how odd ....

Edited November 26, 2017 by Willie Whizz

[billbedford]

So, Bill, to turn the tables: if you supplied a customer with goods before his cheque was cleared; and it bounced

 

 

There hasn't been a year that I've been in business that I haven't written off some money because someone had decided not to pay me. For small amounts e.g. 20, 30 even 50 quid the amount of time and hassle it takes to get people to pay is just not worth the effort. Maybe if the sum involved was nearer a thousand I would think differently, but I very much doubt that anyone here has invested that sort of money in some obsolete plastic kits.

[jjb1970]

Post deleted

Edited November 27, 2017 by jjb1970

[Craigw]

So, Bill, to turn the tables: if you supplied a customer with goods before his cheque was cleared; and it bounced; and when you tried to get your stuff returned or the money paid, he laughed in your face, dared you to do your worst and told you where to go ... and then from talking to other small suppliers you learned he'd blatantly done the same to them ... I wonder whether you'd be quite so calm about it.  Sometimes the amount of money involved is quite immaterial to the emotion generated by the sheer attitude.  Been there myself (in another context), but also indeed used to work for a business Robert Maxwell did the equivalent to (for millions), as well as having an Aunt whose pension he busted, so worn the t-shirt both ways.

 

Sooner or later, Mr Dunn will upset a railway modeller who really can't keep a sense of proportion; and instead of firing-off an angry e-mail to RMWeb they will take ... well, shall we just say, rather more direct, robust and personal action to enforce their rights, since the Law seems completely effete and helpless in such matters.  I suppose I should say I wouldn't approve, and indeed  I suppose I wouldn't really ... but somehow the words seem to be rather sticking in my throat; how odd ....

 

In Bills defence on this matter, when I have pre-ordered some of his 3D printed wagons, he has shipped them to me with an invoice for the payment less the deposit I have paid. I regard that as more than an honourable and decent thing to do. Bill has done (and left himself open to ) exactly what you said.

 

The situation with regards to CC is somewhat different I admit. I think the site should be pulled until things are resolved one way or another.

 

There is no way on earth I would click the "add to cart" button on the Coopercraft site and if I see anyone contemplating ordering I advise them exactly the same.

 

regards,

 

Craig W

[Colin_McLeod]

I think people here should keep a sense of proportion here. Paul Dunn, for all his faults, is not exactly a second Robert Maxwell.

May be not Maxwell but so what? jjb1970 is taking action and if others who are owed money take similar action then perhaps this ongoing retaining of money can be stopped. The problem is ongoing maybe because the sums of money involved are small and creditors decide it is not worth pursuing. If everyone on here who is owed money telephoned him on a frequent basis untll he gives in and makes the refunds then something will have been achieved.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Colin_McLeod

[Clearwater]

There hasn't been a year that I've been in business that I haven't written off some money because someone had decided not to pay me. For small amounts e.g. 20, 30 even 50 quid the amount of time and hassle it takes to get people to pay is just not worth the effort. Maybe if the sum involved was nearer a thousand I would think differently, but I very much doubt that anyone here has invested that sort of money in some obsolete plastic kits.

Sure - I don’t doubt that but the analysis is assymetric. People not paying, bad debts, is a cost of business and one that businesses factor into their profit margins. For some people losing £25-50 for Goods that never turn up could be a big deal (read some of the rtr threads on pricing for example). I suspect that for some of the people above taking action that they are not on the breadline and “could afford” a small loss but that’s not the point. If those people’s actions help others then great. All power to their elbow.

 

Some people don’t read rmweb - I suspect the comments above are a percentage of those who’ve lost money, don’t read this forum, are too embarrassed to admit they’ve been duped. Why should Dunn’s lifestyle be subsidised by him not producing what he’s been paid for?

 

It may be small time but that doesn’t make it any less wrong.

[kandc_au]

Biggest issue at the moment is those new to the scene go to the front of his website and get caught.

By his own actions he is showing contempt for anyone who goes to his site and the powers that be over there need to get off their rear ends and do something about it!
Andy Y from here has tried to help and yet even that was turned down, so one can only assume he is quite happy to screw everyone he can for what little he can get out of then and to hell with them!

He needs to be held to account!

 

Khris

[hayfield]

Brief update - I have reported Dunn/Cooper-Craft to Action Fraud at: https://www.actionfraud.police.uk/report-a-fraud-including-online-crime-questions Report made on 21 November and I have a crime number and pro forma reply that they will contact me again within 28 days with information on what action they have taken. 

 

I have also reported him to Trading Standards through the Citizens Advice web site as well as writing again to Worldpay and his web site host Sinclaire Knight: http://sinclaireknight.com/services/printing/ - in both cases quoting the crime number and suggesting, for the sake of their reputation, they should not be doing business with an alleged fraudulent trader.

 

I will keep you advise of developments (if any). 

 

 

I do hope you give action Fraud links to both (or is it three) threads on Coopercraft. Doubt if they would do much about a single transaction but when its several they may take a bit more interest, could also be worth copying in trading standards with the links as well

 

At first I felt sorry for him, now my view has totally altered 

 

Good luck

[Andrew F]

Did anyone ever receive anything by post from him? ; even items he has/had in stock.

 

He didn't supply me the items he told me he definitely (for what that's worth) held.

[TheTurfBurner]

I do hope you give action Fraud links to both (or is it three) threads on Coopercraft. Doubt if they would do much about a single transaction but when its several they may take a bit more interest, could also be worth copying in trading standards with the links as well

 

At first I felt sorry for him, now my view has totally altered 

 

Good luck

 

Yes - both reports included links to this site. However, posts here are anonymous hearsay and cannot be actioned or used as evidence. It requires in person reports before anything can be done.

 

If everybody here who has lost money to Dunn reported him to Trading Standards and/or Action Fraud, his web site could be gone and nobody else would pay hard earned cash for items they will never receive. Reports to Trading Standards and Action Fraud are not difficult, the web sites are quoted above, the process is painless - and FREE.

[Willie Whizz]

There hasn't been a year that I've been in business that I haven't written off some money because someone had decided not to pay me. For small amounts e.g. 20, 30 even 50 quid the amount of time and hassle it takes to get people to pay is just not worth the effort. Maybe if the sum involved was nearer a thousand I would think differently, but I very much doubt that anyone here has invested that sort of money in some obsolete plastic kits.

 

Most businesses would no doubt say the same, but here it is the conduct of the business itself that is at issue.  I think the difference here is that it isn't a one-off single instance; the man is being quite blatant, consistent and unapologetic in his conduct if what we read on here is to be believed (and I see no reason why it shouldn't), which itself is probably only the tip of the iceberg.  As far as I can see, whether or not he started-out with honest intentions has become immaterial; the man appears to be a candidate for the BBC Rogue Traders show and the only thing likely to keep him off it is the lack of another nought or two on the sums involved.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think people here should keep a sense of proportion here. Paul Dunn, for all his faults, is not exactly a second Robert Maxwell.

I think that we all appreciate that, Bill. It's very  easy for a one-man business to get into difficulties without there originally being any evil intent.

 

But when in a hole, one should stop digging.

[lofty1966]

I think people here should keep a sense of proportion here. Paul Dunn, for all his faults, is not exactly a second Robert Maxwell.

Given enough time though the little weasel has the potential.

[cctransuk]

Given enough time though the little weasel has the potential.

 

Really? What evidence is there that he has done ANYTHING other than source readily obtainable products designed by his predecessors? As to actually producing anything himself, or making any discernable efforts to get his injection moulding equipment functional, I've heard nothing but lame excuses.

 

He sames to make some pocket money by attending some exhibitions, and by accepting payment for goods that he knows he can't supply.

 

I surmise that he wonders why he should make any real effort in those circumstances.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Willie Whizz]

I think by "potential", Lofty may have meant "the potential to become a second Robert Maxwell" ...

[cctransuk]

I think by "potential", Lofty may have meant "the potential to become a second Robert Maxwell" ...

 

Quite so - sorry that I missed the subtlety !

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[BG John]

Has he really managed to hang on to enough of other people's money, to buy a yacht that he can fall overboard from?  

[Siberian Snooper]

Has he really managed to hang on to enough of other people's money, to buy a yacht that he can fall overboard from?

 

At least, if he fell overboard, it should lead to the closing down of his website.

[thegreenhowards]

Did anyone ever receive anything by post from him? ; even items he has/had in stock.

 

He didn't supply me the items he told me he definitely (for what that's worth) held.

I have received items at least three times, but only when dealing by phone, and on one occasion I had to chase. If you talk to him and ask him what he has in stock he’s generally happy to supply it. I think he’s being rather harshly treated on here, although for understandable reasons. I’d put him down as 90% IT illiterate incompetent, and only 10% fraudster.

 

Having said that, the website is unforgivable, and I have every sympathy for those who’ve lost money.

 

Andy

[Steamport Southport]

There hasn't been a year that I've been in business that I haven't written off some money because someone had decided not to pay me. For small amounts e.g. 20, 30 even 50 quid the amount of time and hassle it takes to get people to pay is just not worth the effort. Maybe if the sum involved was nearer a thousand I would think differently, but I very much doubt that anyone here has invested that sort of money in some obsolete plastic kits.

 

Small amounts of losses are to be expected in almost any business. I don't even bother chasing after shoplifters anymore as it's not worth the hassle.

 

 

But if quite a few people are paying into his account then it soon adds up. £20 here, £30 there. When the average LNER coach kit is about £20 with postage then I could see the amount being potentially thousands. Especially if the buyer is someone like me that usually buys in bulk in order to save postage.

 

If it was a reputable owner with this range then I wouldn't hesitate to buy a full rake of coaches. In fact I was looking at the Coronation set which is still advertised at £110 before all this happened.

 

 

 

 

Jason