DJ Models Announcement 01/05/19

[highpeakman]

3 minutes ago, pheaton said:

the person was issued with 50 ordinary shares...as per the filing on the 18th january 2018

 

Agreed. Had missed that filing. 

[Legend]

I think we have got to the stage where we are trying to pick holes in everything , which I suppose more fundamentally shows the breakdown in trust, but the guys just put an "out of office" message on . Seems entirely reasonable to me given he is a one man band .   He probably will be in contact as these days you really have to be somewhere extremely remote not to be in touch, but I suppose what he might be saying is don't use my mobile number (which is on the page) as I'm away.   Might be away in China checking up on projects , or he might simply be on holiday.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Legend

[Covkid]

13 minutes ago, Torper said:

 

So if you don't have a proven track record there's no point even trying?  While I appreciate that it's tempting to continue putting the boot in, why not wait and see if he manages anything.  As for his predicament, I found the post by Highpeakman earlier on this page both informative and enlightening - it could help explain a lot.

 

DT

 

I have reread "Highpeakman"'s post and I understand it might be a symptom of Dave''s issues but............. just how much bad luck can one guy have before assumptions start to be made. It is possible that one of the factories he has been done business with, could produce stuff from his CAD and tooling to competitors, but to form an opinion it would useful to know whether any other model manufacturer has suffered similar.

 

I am minded to think that Dave has three major products in development, and needs to focus all his efforts on getting them on to UK model shop shelves. Does he have time in his busy schedule to be worrying about IP if there are threat's his survival is threatened by people cancelling orders for his product 

[Great Western]

Okay, I’m going to wait and see if/what he says come the announced update date before making further comment.

[guzzler17]

34 minutes ago, Great Western said:

 

Nothing, if you have a proven track record of delivering - trying, but just not quite getting there just sums up this firm sadly. 

It's all very odd as many have written about earlier on.

 

What might seem to be even odder is that I have more models from Mr Jones in his pre-Dapol days that I do from his current business.  At that time he was driving HGVs as his main occupation and doing some model making in his spare time.

 

If Mr Jones has free capacity then perhaps he could resurrect his earlier business and run it concurrently with DJM.  At least that would generate a bit of cash which he's said he's short of.  For that bit of consultancy advice I'll be sending him an invoice

 

My solitary Mermaid will be my only DJM model as there's nothing else he does that floats my boat.

[Ravenser]

May I suggest that at this point it might be more helpful to pull together a list of all outstanding /unfulfilled DJM projects (including commissions/collaborations) , together with a note of their last known status?

 

Someone has done the job in respect of what DJM has actually made in another thread:  https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/143704-current-availability/

 

I think we now need a listing of what has been announced and hasn't so far been delivered. 

 

Someone somewhere (I can't find the posting) remarked that DJM needed to deliver the outstanding projects OO APT-P, 92 and N King , as if this was all that was left standing . Someone else has mentioned the N gauge Shark. DJM have registered a Class 17 design of unspecified scale  , implying that it was worth investing money to protect a project . Is the Hudswell-Clarke a live project or a dropped one?

 

It's a little hard to work out where we are - so much has been announced, dropped , drifted , revised - and that is part of the problem DJM have created

 

There's also the matter of the reported 14 designs still to be registered as "his"

 

If a list could be constructed , separated into OO and N , of all announced but unfulfilled DJM projects, stating:

 

- Whether DJM have announced that this project is cancelled

- Whether it is in collaboration with anyone

- Whether it has been "crowd-funded" 

- Last known comment from DJM and approx date of comment

 

This would be a useful resource , from which anyone could check whether a project had in fact been cancelled, whether DJM were still talking about producing it, and whether it might also be someone else's project.

 

It would allow us to work out what might still notionally be live, what had definitely been dropped , where monies from crowd-funders might be outstanding - and also to identify where there might be a chance that DJM might try to assert a legal claim against  anyone else's projects

 

I don't expect DJM to announce further cancellations of crowd-funded projects - not least as  he would then have to refund the crowd-funders in cash - so I expect any existing crowd-funding schemes would simply be left to drift along uncancelled without further updates - "pending until dormant"

 

This may be more practical use than debating the minutiae of DJM's legal structure

[peterfgf]

I'm afraid I lost interest in DJM after receiving my J94 for my Derbyshire based model railway.  It's a nice model up-top, but what a botch in having both geared drive and couplings rods on all wheels: totally unnecessary, wasteful of energy and expensive.  I thought the design of the drive train demonstrated a lack of understanding of both model making and engineering.

Peterfgf

[njee20]

9 minutes ago, Great Western said:

Okay, I’m going to wait and see if/what he says come the announced update date before making further comment.

He hasn't said he's posting an update on the 17th, he's said he's not around until the 17th so any updates will be after that. You've always been trolling his threads baying for blood, good to see that's not changed.

[JSpencer]

Any update should about real progress of a project when it is made. There is utterly no point in him making references to anything else in any public announcement as it either serves no purpose or can have a negative impact.

[DavidH]

19 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

Any update should about real progress of a project when it is made. There is utterly no point in him making references to anything else in any public announcement as it either serves no purpose or can have a negative impact.

 

Someone with a solid business plan would have come out fighting at the start of the week - and issued a breakdown of the live projects with an honest estimate of schedules and some idea of funding in place. And they would have done it without recourse to hyperbole or finger-pointing, or blame-shifting ...

Or you could just go on holiday

[Great Western]

43 minutes ago, njee20 said:

He hasn't said he's posting an update on the 17th, he's said he's not around until the 17th so any updates will be after that. You've always been trolling his threads baying for blood, good to see that's not changed.

 

Okay, your welcome to your opinion - raise concern - equal troll. 

 

Typical. 

[John M Upton]

51 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

Someone else has mentioned the N gauge Shark. DJM have registered a Class 17 design of unspecified scale  , implying that it was worth investing money to protect.

 

The Class 17 was in N and made it as far as a lovely looking working EP prototype.   

 

Unfortunately just as it looked like it would be produced, it seems that was when the great factory bust up happened and it was effectively and sadly shelved.

 

If DJM had delivered that and it was as good as it promised to be then it could have been a very different story. 

[PaulCheffus]

43 minutes ago, peterfgf said:

I'm afraid I lost interest in DJM after receiving my J94 for my Derbyshire based model railway.  It's a nice model up-top, but what a botch in having both geared drive and couplings rods on all wheels: totally unnecessary, wasteful of energy and expensive.  I thought the design of the drive train demonstrated a lack of understanding of both model making and engineering.

Peterfgf

Hi

 

The 2mm Scale Association complete 08 kit (not the Farish replacement chassis) allows you to build it with all wheels geared and it would look a little silly without coupling rods on all the wheels so I am puzzled by your comment that I've highlighted in bold.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Barry Ten]

2 minutes ago, PaulCheffus said:

Hi

 

The 2mm Scale Association complete 08 kit (not the Farish replacement chassis) allows you to build it with all wheels geared and it would look a little silly without coupling rods on all the wheels so I am puzzled by your comment that I've highlighted in bold.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

That kind of arrangement is the case on all the American steam stuff I've seen in N, where the coupling rods are just going along for the ride, but whether it scales up reliably to 4mm is a different issue.

[tomparryharry]

1 hour ago, njee20 said:

He hasn't said he's posting an update on the 17th, he's said he's not around until the 17th so any updates will be after that. You've always been trolling his threads baying for blood, good to see that's not changed.

 

The fact that Mr Jones is not here ( or there) is neither here nor there, either. If I wanted to have a meeting with the man, the last place that meeting would be via the pages of this particular forum. Mr Jones might not have had the best of luck, foresight or experience, but letting anything information wise would be highly counter-productive.

 

In a highly charged situation such as this, I would respectfully suggest Mr Jones might stay silent, until he can release a model worthy such it can dispel all of the negativity, and boost his ratings also. It would appear the current vogue is to regard DJM with a certain suspicion, either fiscally, quality, or deliverability. The sure-fire way to counter that is to put the product on the shelves, so to speak. Quality does talk in this hobby and always has.

 

I wish Dave Jones well. I've got 3 of the 18" austerities, and they're all good runners.  I hope he can break through the current circle of ill-thought press, and apparent lack of delivery, and get back to where he wanted to be.

 

Good luck to the man.

 

Ian.

[woodenhead]

20 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

 

The fact that Mr Jones is not here ( or there) is neither here nor there, either. If I wanted to have a meeting with the man, the last place that meeting would be via the pages of this particular forum. Mr Jones might not have had the best of luck, foresight or experience, but letting anything information wise would be highly counter-productive.

 

In a highly charged situation such as this, I would respectfully suggest Mr Jones might stay silent, until he can release a model worthy such it can dispel all of the negativity, and boost his ratings also. It would appear the current vogue is to regard DJM with a certain suspicion, either fiscally, quality, or deliverability. The sure-fire way to counter that is to put the product on the shelves, so to speak. Quality does talk in this hobby and always has.

 

I wish Dave Jones well. I've got 3 of the 18" austerities, and they're all good runners.  I hope he can break through the current circle of ill-thought press, and apparent lack of delivery, and get back to where he wanted to be.

 

Good luck to the man.

 

Ian.

He can't stay silent - he has to communicate with his crowdfunders who right now will be wondering just what the heck is going on and he needs second payments to move forward - again will require communication

 

No-one expects a response on this forum.

[GWR-fan]

As a businessman why does he not know at any point in time the status of any and all projects?  He is dealing with other people's money and should be aware of his undertakings as crowd funding requires people's trust if he is to succeed.  It seems that his time of late has been spent more with personal issues and perceived squabbles with others rather than getting projects completed.  When an issue arises he has a commitment to his customers to keep them reliably informed.  After having read most of the threads related to funded projects it seems that basically all have suffered from excuses and little or no forthcoming information and when that information was available it was restricted in its distribution.  For the sake of those who have invested money I hope that Dave uses the next week wisely and concentrates on getting projects to the market rather than time spent chasing rainbows.  If he has the time to chase legal issues and register designs then he has the time to progress promised projects or at least comment on their status.  

[Markwj]

I kind of think/ hope he is going to use the next couple of weeks to have a holiday and get his head in order and decide his best move without the usual smoke and mirrors. I hope he doesn't have to fly to china to sort out and 'find the answers' as that would suggest he has less of a grip on things than we give him credit for.

[Anglian]

7 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

We are each entitled to our own opinions and if Jason of Rapido or the Accurascale lads were to establish a crowd funding scheme for models I wanted I would be there with the deposit immediately. These guys have credibility, but they don't need to crowdfund, and that is the whole point we are discussing in this thread - the viability of a model manufacturer.

 

As you write they have credibility and don't need to crowdfund; I'd be very pleased to buy from them and am quite excited to see what Accurascale do for their first steam locomotive. Perhaps I should have qualified my posting – I've seen a good number of Kickstarters fail in my other hobbies and seen folks left out of pocket with nothing to show for it hence why I won't take the risk. However, I have placed pre-orders for locos I've not seen in the flesh and will be buying the Rails Terrier and the Model Rail E1, so I am supporting those who are commissioning models, in a way I feel comfortable with.

 

As you write we all have different attitudes towards our spending. Perhaps I'm behind the times but I can't help but think that if a company is prepared to risk their own investment capital they have a great incentive to ensure their success. In my professional life I've seen so called entrepreneurs trying to launch businesses using other peoples money and when it doesn't work out all they do is walk away leaving a trail of debt and other people in a poor, or worse, position. (I was one of them on two occasions.) Those experiences have certainly coloured my judgement about crowdfunding – it's the same basic principle of transferring the financial risk to others. I have no choice but to accept financial risk in my professional life but I just choose not to with my hobbies.

 

Accurascale started with one wagon, produced it beautifully and are growing – I think they have a great future and a sustainable viable business. On the other hand a business based entirely on crowdfunding (if my understanding of DJM is correct) has thus far proved not to be working out too well. Is it sustainable? Time will tell. Of course if it doesn't succeed that may be due to reasons beyond using crowdfunding to raise capital.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Anglian

[GWR-fan]

Crowdfunding is not the issue,  business management is what has lead to the problems that we see.  As far as I am aware all the projects needed to reach at least a break even point before the decision was made to proceed.  What I am interested in was each project a "standalone" project or was their cross funding as issues arose to cover a shortfall?  There was an illfated investment scheme in the U.S. called the "ponzi scheme".  The investment company was offering returns far higher than the industry norm and questions eventually were asked as to how the scheme could be so successful.  The truth be told the company was using the money of new investors to fund and sustain the abnormal returns to the original investors.  Basically a pyramid scheme.  Eventually those lower down the ladder were out of pocket.

 

If fully funded then why is there uncertainty as to the outcome?  Have initial project costings exceeded expectations in the original plan?  Why is there so much secrecy?  Crowd funding depends on a customer having the trust that the project will succeed.  If a project is to succeed then the manufacturer really needs an incentive to see the project to completion by perhaps investing his own capital, say 50%.  When the manufacturer has no skin in the game then he only has his reputation to lose not his hip pocket.  There is an element of risk,  however,  a trustworthy manufacturer with a proven track record would have outlined any possible issues that may have arisen and would have factored a contingency into the initial costings, plus keep the investors fully informed of all progress to date,  good or bad.   It seems though that all funds have dried up with very little to show and excuses are being sought to explain the delays.    An ill wind is a bad omen and unfortunately I can feel the chill in my bones. 

[peterfgf]

4 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

 

That kind of arrangement is the case on all the American steam stuff I've seen in N, where the coupling rods are just going along for the ride, but whether it scales up reliably to 4mm is a different issue.

Paul and Barry,

Steam locomotives, both prototype and model,  have coupling rods to distribute power to all driving wheels.

Diesel and electric models often have gear trains to distribute power to all driven wheels ( at least the more recent and better models do). In prototype nomenclature these would be termed B-B or C-C as opposed to Bo-Bo or Co-Co which have independent motors on each axle.

Gear trains introduce friction (which shows as heat) and reduce the power transmitted to the wheels.  My DJM J94 was a poor hauler in comparison with the straightforward Hornby J94.

You only need coupling rods or gears.  Not both. 

Peterfgf

[5944]

4 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

 

That kind of arrangement is the case on all the American steam stuff I've seen in N, where the coupling rods are just going along for the ride, but whether it scales up reliably to 4mm is a different issue.

It would probably have worked fine if there hadn't been so much slack and backlash between the gears. Yes there should be a little bit of give between them, but you shouldn't be able to turn one gear at the start of the gear train nearly half a turn before the wheels start to move. 

[Barry Ten]

45 minutes ago, peterfgf said:

Paul and Barry,

Steam locomotives, both prototype and model,  have coupling rods to distribute power to all driving wheels.

 

 

Ah, right - I always wondered what coupling rods were for.

[njee20]

5 hours ago, Great Western said:

 

Okay, your welcome to your opinion - raise concern - equal troll. 

 

Typical. 

Yes, you always play the wounded crusader too, but actually you’re just unpleasant most of the time. The boss even told you as much earlier.  

 

I’m far from a Dave apologist, but you literally just post contextless comments saying how awful he is. All the time. It’s really dull. 

[lochlongside]

On reading his initial announcement - as an investor in two 00 Class 92 and having paid the initial deposit - my first thought was oh s**t there goes my cash  again (I lost some to the original K**n P***s failure several decades (70s) ago); and the follow-up was no better.

My second thought was hmmm not unexpected - but thank God I did not put any cash into APT (I actually wanted one, I really was severely tempted but nearly two years of non-performance waiting for Class 92 progress was off-putting... hence the thanks ( I only wish I had read the N gauge King thread - I would have even saved my £60) and I do feel for those who put significantly more cash into APT as I fear it is either MS&L or GC(R)  - it is not a happy feeling especially if it was a significant proportion of their annual budget.

Being supportive of DJM for a moment (possibly not popular I know but....) losing a parent is no joke, and it obviously knocked him sideways - as a one man band the pressure has pushed him off course, but even before this - in the past - he has come across as well-meaning but has always promised more than he can deliver. Despite the hype my 02 and 14xx are not outstandingly runners especially c.f. Hattons P or Hornby Peckett/H. My Cl 71 is limited to parcels and freight - it is hopeless for express passenger workings (I use the Hornby Cl71 for that), and only DJM's promise that the Cl 92 motor would be better persuaded me to invest in it.

I agree with those above that if he really can see a way ahead he needs to come clean, produce an update, advise a plan and then actually show tangible progress. Talk is not going to fix this, but product progress based on current funding  and hitting new advised deadlines will. The only other alternative I see for him is to sell up to someone with a track record of delivery but who will probably want more cash than originally proposed from us to complete the projects and  even that will only happen if work to date is viable.

I fear however that realistically any money in projects is now sunk. Having read here how some got project refunds and some did not on other transactions (no proportionality as far as I could see) it indicates to me a level of financial disorder (in my opinion I emphasise !); and I just feel that asking for it back on what is an ad-hoc crowd-funding model type investment runs counter to the concept and is unlikely to happen. A small court claim (cost £25 plus) is also probably going to be a waste of time and possibly money/effort.

The other possibly more significant factor is that this poisons the well not only for other crowd fundings but for follow-on funding to complete the DJM current projects. I cannot be the only person who although trying in my own mind to minimise the potential loss by rationalising it as "merely the equivalent of a  Bachmann coach"(!!) at the same time now has little intention of pouring more cash into the DJM Cl 92 project without some tangible indication of genuine product progress. Accurascale beckons !!