New OO gauge Class 73

[SRman]

A further update on my E6007: The Hobby Shop, Faversham and DCC Supplies have come good on the promise of a replacement bogie frame. In fact, a whole bogie assembly arrived in the mail today. I have now unclipped the bogie frames and swapped them so my model now has 'proper' brake gear. 

I figured it was easier just to swap the frames rather than messing around with the drive shafts and resoldering wires. The frames are clipped at the front and back of the bogie chassis, and there are also two more clips, one each in the centre of the sides of the bogie chassis.

[rob D2]

Well,you get to respray it, add extra pick ups, and stick all the detail bits back.

 

What's not to like for £130 ?

[roundhouse]

Still no reply to my email to Dapol regarding getting replacement buffer for my green one.

[SouthernBlue80s]

Agree Bob....I have learnt over the years to wait while the first batch to arrive of any model is reviewed by folks on here. The £100 + price point having being breached means that in my mind i want things to be right and not have the hassle of sending back (at cost to me) locos. I'm happy to support manufactures like Dapol with my pound but, these are not marketed as railroad type locos. I have a number of locos (Heljan black wheels/class 17 et,al.) that i wished i'd waited for but have missed out on some (HST @£107) by waiting. I have broken this stance with the up coming APT by ordering the full Monty sound version but I think the tread toward crowd sourcing will compel people to order without the luxury of waiting to make sure the product is good enough for the price.

 

B

 

I agree with this. I have a £100 limit in my mind for a loco. Once this figure is passed I might still well purchase ....but it must be just right.

I was going to order a blue 73 but this thread stopped me.

 

Class 73s I saw regularly at Faversham station in 1982 did not have lemon yellow ends.

It is a real shame as the detail on the model, as all agree, is excellent.

[Mike Storey]

I have broken this stance with the up coming APT by ordering the full Monty sound version but I think the tread toward crowd sourcing will compel people to order without the luxury of waiting to make sure the product is good enough for the price.

 

B

 

Despite Rapido apparently intending to continue with that model (of financing!) there are several experienced people now predicting that the age of crowdsourcing, at least for expensive items like locos, is over. There have been some emerging difficulties with that way of doing things. One person has certainly ended up with a significant loss, on one project, having underestimated the final costs of his product (and that wasn't even a loco) but having to honour the agreed retail price. "Kickstarter" certainly seems to be near dead in the model railway world anyway, although current examples can still be found. 

 

It seems that, for relatively obscure classes, we will be relying on generous retailers turned commissioners, or new entrants with some dosh, but this could still have the effect you describe, in terms of limited numbers, and thus buying blind may still become necessary rather than a choice. The way they seem to have got around this in Germany, Switzerland and Austria, for example, is to charge far more, to ensure greater returns from a smaller number of initial sales, but, unlike in the UK, it is rare to see the remainder discounted if sales are slow. (Hornby International brands are about the only firm in Europe doing this, and their initial prices (sometimes along with functionality and quality) are lower than most to begin with!) Mind you, that hasn't stopped several of them going bust and being re-financed by new owners.

[jjb1970]

I think it is often forgotten just what a turbulent and troubled time the mainland European model train suppliers have had and for quite a while going back probably to the 1990's there have been significant financial issues. Despite the well publicised problems of Hornby and Bachmann in recent years the UK market has seemed remarkably stable by comparison.

[DoverPriory]

£130? more like £600 with postage! I have sent 15 back to Hattons.

 

I pre-ordered 5 all faulty - livery, blemishes, poor running, electrics designed by an ape. Only for both sets of replacements to exhibit the same problems. Plus 3 of them caught fire! (due to the DCC incompatabilities mentioned elsewhere).

I emailed Dapol 9 times (all the addresses on here and through their website) but got no reply.

Hattons meanwhile responded within 10 minutes offering replacement/return/money back. Ive had to settle for the latter now can't fault hattons but not due to them am well out of pocket for postage.

 

I'm still trying to speak to someone at Dapol because I want to hear their story but the phone is never answered. is there another number the website one just rings?

I totally echo the sentiments in your post from the electrics designed by an ape ( on reflection an ape would probably have made a better job of it) to the blemishes. Attempts at contacting Dapol have also been totally fruitless. Only Hattons come out of this saga with any credit. Dapol will get no more business from me, and I suspect, quite a few others! Have dusted off my old Hornby 73's and bought another ' new ' one on eBay for £72, at almost half the Dapol cost it's got to be a bargain.

But in all seriousness I think the sourcing of these items from China is becoming a serious quality issue. 

[Gwiwer]

 

 

I think the sourcing of these items from China is becoming a serious quality issue. 

 

Not so much the sourcing as the management of quality control.  It is that which appears to be severely lacking with the class 73.  The actual parts, the general construction and the supply of the locos is fine.  it is the "detail" in its widest sense which has not received adequate attention.  That might be the same whether the locos were manufactured in China, Chad or nearer to Chester.  The fault lies fairly and squarely with Dapol whose silence remains deafening when faced with a significant amount of valid criticism.

[SRman]

I agree with Rick, above. Did no one at Dapol even think to actually test this so-called DCC-ready locomotive on DCC? Did they not look at the headcodes and the lighting and say "This doesn't seem right."?

Did they set any of the models beside others, even from their own stable (and that could include their N scale models too), to see how the livery colours compared?

Obviously not!

[dibber25]

Despite Rapido apparently intending to continue with that model (of financing!) there are several experienced people now predicting that the age of crowdsourcing, at least for expensive items like locos, is over. There have been some emerging difficulties with that way of doing things. One person has certainly ended up with a significant loss, on one project, having underestimated the final costs of his product (and that wasn't even a loco) but having to honour the agreed retail price. "Kickstarter" certainly seems to be near dead in the model railway world anyway, although current examples can still be found. 

 

It seems that, for relatively obscure classes, we will be relying on generous retailers turned commissioners, or new entrants with some dosh, but this could still have the effect you describe, in terms of limited numbers, and thus buying blind may still become necessary rather than a choice. The way they seem to have got around this in Germany, Switzerland and Austria, for example, is to charge far more, to ensure greater returns from a smaller number of initial sales, but, unlike in the UK, it is rare to see the remainder discounted if sales are slow. (Hornby International brands are about the only firm in Europe doing this, and their initial prices (sometimes along with functionality and quality) are lower than most to begin with!) Mind you, that hasn't stopped several of them going bust and being re-financed by new owners.

To the best of my knowledge, Rapido Trains does not use Kickstarter or crowd-sourcing, although one or two commissioning groups, who use Rapido for manufacturing, certainly do so. Rapido simply operates a pre-order - a reservation - system with regard to manufacturing quantities. (CJL)

[Oldddudders]

Comparisons with European models on pricing still invariably show that OO is measurably better value than HO.

 

Leaving aside the quality and hue issues, the EDL at £130 is considerably better value than the R37 X5600 series railcar currently on offer by a leading French boxshifter. The plastic X5600, also made in China, naturally, measures 145 mm over buffers, has but 4 wheels, is also DCC-ready, and runs indifferently. Yours for €219, or £167 at today's rather poor rate of exchange. Matching trailers the same length retail at €85, again DCC-ready for lighting control.

 

And the quality and colour issues with the EDL all point to a model rushed through the final stages, with recovery of initial investment aforethought. The deafening silence found from Dapol by many in this thread hardly implies otherwise. Major recalls and replacement can be very costly, no doubt.

[47606odin]

I got to speak to Dapol

It took 45 minutes of rining and 5 minutes to find someone who knew anything. they tried everything to put me off.

I got to speak to a Kevin Gimley who said he was sales manager. I explained about my problems and he said he didn't know about them, no emails had been received because the always anser them all but can i send it again because their email is always not working.

He said he had not seen a class 73 because his job was taking orders. there were no problems with them that he had been told. I asked to talk to the designers. he said there were none, all quality and design was subcontracted but would not say where /who. but we can guess who. Dapol just buy and sell stuff there is no testing done.

he told me he was very busy and did not have more time. so i asked to speak to the managing directory but he was not in. he only comes in 1 or 2 days each week because he has other businesses. kevin said this like it was good.

 

so there we have it. just my experience of dapols customer service.

well, Kevin didn't reply to any of my follow up emails, after he contacted me, and to say he was not aware of problems is untrue. i think i'm not going to bother with Dapol again after this, especially if thats their attitude

[No Decorum]

That is downright dreadful. If Dapol took note of the criticisms, a reasonable model (sorry, folks, but I quite like it) could be turned into a superb one and there would be a good deal less reluctance to order 59s and 68s.

[Revolution Mike]

Folks

 

Some of the last posts about contacting Dapol are rather missing the point - you should be contacting your retailer as the first point of contact if you have a problem as it is them you have a contract with and it is the retailer's responsibility to take things up with Dapol.  That doesn't excuse Dapol, but equally we as customers should play our part in doing things correctly.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Oldddudders]

Folks

 

Some of the last posts about contacting Dapol are rather missing the point - you should be contacting your retailer as the first point of contact if you have a problem as it is them you have a contract with and it is the retailer's responsibility to take things up with Dapol.  That doesn't excuse Dapol, but equally we as customers should play our part in doing things correctly.

 

Cheers, Mike

Undoubtedly correct. But.

 

The retailer is in many cases a one-man band and thus already an endangered species. Heaping live coals on his head, in an era when manufacturers already treat his kind with some disdain, is counter-intuitive. He has innocently delivered the product, which has turned out to be less than the purchaser expected.

 

Sticking a few *^+~s into the firm that released the disappointing product does seem a reasonable response in the real world.

[Revolution Mike]

Despite Rapido apparently intending to continue with that model (of financing!) there are several experienced people now predicting that the age of crowdsourcing, at least for expensive items like locos, is over. There have been some emerging difficulties with that way of doing things. One person has certainly ended up with a significant loss, on one project, having underestimated the final costs of his product (and that wasn't even a loco) but having to honour the agreed retail price. "Kickstarter" certainly seems to be near dead in the model railway world anyway, although current examples can still be found. 

 

As Chris said, Rapido does not use crowdfunding. We (Revolution Trains) have used crowdfunding for the Pendolino and TEA with a decision being made at the end of this month on our next two potential products. I agree with you that Kickstarter is difficult for the model railway world (hence why we use our own system) - the time periods don't work and the cost of using it offer no benefit to the backers.

 

Clearly with any funding mechanism you have to have a good idea at the start of the project as to what the final product costs will be! That is true however the model is funded, otherwise you lose control of costs and end up with something that is far too expensive to produce or for the market to bear.

 

Provided you are open and honest with people throughout the development process I don't see an inherent problem with crowdfunding, but clearly you have to demonstrate that people can trust you to look after their money and deliver a decent product.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Revolution Mike]

Undoubtedly correct. But.

 

The retailer is in many cases a one-man band and thus already an endangered species. Heaping live coals on his head, in an era when manufacturers already treat his kind with some disdain, is counter-intuitive. He has innocently delivered the product, which has turned out to be less than the purchaser expected.

 

Sticking a few *^+~s into the firm that released the disappointing product does seem a reasonable response in the real world.

 

As I said, it is not an attempt to absolve the manufacturer of blame but a retailer may well be in a much better position to deal with customers problems/queries than a manufacturer.  The manufacturer is largely set up to deal with its customers (which are the retailers) not individual consumers. The retailer should be more used to dealing with individuals (that is their job).

 

It shouldn't change the end result (which should be satisfaction or a refund) but it might well make the whole process less fraught.

 

Cheers, Mike

[47606odin]

regarding contacting Dapol, Dapol requested contact via their contact email address, it is on their Facebook page in reply to my comments.

 

it was stated that issues were news to them and to contact them with the issues, i also mentioned people had and received no reply

[tetsudofan]

As Chris said, Rapido does not use crowdfunding. We (Revolution Trains) have used crowdfunding for the Pendolino and TEA with a decision being made at the end of this month on our next two potential products. I agree with you that Kickstarter is difficult for the model railway world (hence why we use our own system) - the time periods don't work and the cost of using it offer no benefit to the backers.

 

Clearly with any funding mechanism you have to have a good idea at the start of the project as to what the final product costs will be! That is true however the model is funded, otherwise you lose control of costs and end up with something that is far too expensive to produce or for the market to bear.

 

Provided you are open and honest with people throughout the development process I don't see an inherent problem with crowdfunding, but clearly you have to demonstrate that people can trust you to look after their money and deliver a decent product.

 

Cheers, Mike

 

 

Mike,

 

What you say is the way that things should be done but in this case we are dealing with Dapol....... and they live in a different universe.

 

Dan mentioned above that he was on the phone for at least 45 minutes and once he got through to somebody he got nowhere which, having had dealings with Dapol in the distant past, is no big surprise to me.

 

My local shop, The Hobby Shop at Faversham, is a one man operation. What would have happened to his business if he had to spend 45 minutes waiting to speak to someone at Dapol? Customers could have walked into the shop and probably left when he was on the phone, he could have lost customers who were trying to phone him when he was on the phone etc., etc. He would not remain in business for very long.

 

The only time you get an immediate response from Dapol is when its in their interest. I expressed an interest in one of the forthcoming Black Label models and got an almost immediate email response from Mr. Bright.

 

With regard to the Cl.73s I've already got 4 versions which have not lost any parts, have been run-in on analogue and perform well but, having read many of the comments above, I'm worried about how the locos will run on dcc so much so that I have not yet plucked up the courage to order some sound decoders.

 

Keith

[Legend]

Maintaining good customer relations has got to be one of the key priorities for a manufacturer, accepting that in most cases, unless you deal direct your contract is with the retailer. It seems though that Dapol have spectacularly failed by not replying to criticisms. I feel really sorry for people who so looked forward to this model and who are now disappointed . For me I have no interest in 73 but I have been monitoring the thread because I am interested in a 68. There's no way on earth I'm preordering a 68 until I establish if it runs well and is properly decorated.The complete lack of customer care from this manufacturer has completely put me off!

 

Bad enough £100+ but would you spend £400+ on a "Black Label"loco with this mob ? I just don't think they have any notion of customer care

Edited January 26, 2016 by Legend

[Derekstuart]

With an attitude like that it is no wonder they won't talk to you.

 

An objective and well mannered complaint is all that you need. Insulting people is going to get you nowhere. Perhaps when you grow up a bit and approach these challenges with a little more decorum then you might find the response you receive is better.

 

All I keep reading is the same people whinging about the same problems. Those who are trying to write what they have done to remedy matters can barely get a word in edge ways.

 

If you don't like them- send them back. It is as simple as that.

 

I totally echo the sentiments in your post from the electrics designed by an ape ( on reflection an ape would probably have made a better job of it) to the blemishes. Attempts at contacting Dapol have also been totally fruitless. Only Hattons come out of this saga with any credit. Dapol will get no more business from me, and I suspect, quite a few others! Have dusted off my old Hornby 73's and bought another ' new ' one on eBay for £72, at almost half the Dapol cost it's got to be a bargain.

But in all seriousness I think the sourcing of these items from China is becoming a serious quality issue. 

[Barry Ten]

I've tested my BR green 73 on DC and it runs about as well as any modern model out of the box, which is to say fairly quietly and smoothly, and seems OK through pointwork, albeit slightly stiff through one. Paint and decoration look very well done. Not to knock Dapol, though, but I was puzzled by a design feature of the bogies and I don't think I've seen it mentioned here - apologies if it has been. All the many diesel models I own allow for the bogies to pitch forward and backwards in both directions, but the bogies on the 73 can't pitch up at their fronts by any significant amount. This is because of two moulded nubs on the top front of the bogies, which (deliberately, it would seem) impede upward swing by rubbing against the chassis. With the design as it is, therefore, if the 73 encounters any kind of transition to an uphill gradient, it's effectively become a rigid 0-8-0 chassis because there's little scope for the bogies to pivot into the vertical curve. The inner axles therefore can't pitch down to maintain track contact. It seems a weird feature, and unnecessary, but I reckon it would be feasible to file down the nubs a bit without removing the bogies, and that ought to offer a bit more vertical play. Any thoughts?

[locoholic]

I'm still trying to get hold of one of the Dapol Collector's Club green SYP Cl 73s ( the one that they still have plenty of).

 

After two phone calls to Dapol I put a comment on their Facebook page & got a response from Joel Bright. I then sent an email, & got an order form with the reply. It apparently needs to be printed & sent to them (they already have my address & credit card details) but the only way I could print it was to take a screen shot & paste it into Paint. Then I need to pay for a stamp & send them a cheque.

 

Having read all the other comments above, I'm wondering if I shouldn't just give up. If, by some miracle, the loco does turn up, what kind of hassle will I be in for if it is defective & needs to be returned?!

[newbryford]

I've tested my BR green 73 on DC and it runs about as well as any modern model out of the box, which is to say fairly quietly and smoothly, and seems OK through pointwork, albeit slightly stiff through one. Paint and decoration look very well done. Not to knock Dapol, though, but I was puzzled by a design feature of the bogies and I don't think I've seen it mentioned here - apologies if it has been. All the many diesel models I own allow for the bogies to pitch forward and backwards in both directions, but the bogies on the 73 can't pitch up at their fronts by any significant amount. This is because of two moulded nubs on the top front of the bogies, which (deliberately, it would seem) impede upward swing by rubbing against the chassis. With the design as it is, therefore, if the 73 encounters any kind of transition to an uphill gradient, it's effectively become a rigid 0-8-0 chassis because there's little scope for the bogies to pivot into the vertical curve. The inner axles therefore can't pitch down to maintain track contact. It seems a weird feature, and unnecessary, but I reckon it would be feasible to file down the nubs a bit without removing the bogies, and that ought to offer a bit more vertical play. Any thoughts?

 

Maybe the restricted upward movement is to prevent the bogie pivoting into anything fixed on the main chassis? Also excess vertical pivoting is not good for a two-axle bogie as the weight transfers onto the rear axle under power, thus trying to lift the lead axle, which can then derail. This is more pronounced on a two rather than three axle arrangement.

 

Early Bachmann 66's suffered in a similar way with minimal lead axle vertical play to prevent the bogie pivoting into fixed detail. The solution was to put a thin washer around the bogie pivot screw between the bogie moulding and chassis casting to slightly raise the body to allow some front end upward movement whilst pivoting. I Think Bachmann then slightly altered the chassis moulding for future releases.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[roundhouse]

I've tested my BR green 73 on DC and it runs about as well as any modern model out of the box, which is to say fairly quietly and smoothly, and seems OK through pointwork, albeit slightly stiff through one. Paint and decoration look very well done. Not to knock Dapol, though, but I was puzzled by a design feature of the bogies and I don't think I've seen it mentioned here - apologies if it has been. All the many diesel models I own allow for the bogies to pitch forward and backwards in both directions, but the bogies on the 73 can't pitch up at their fronts by any significant amount. This is because of two moulded nubs on the top front of the bogies, which (deliberately, it would seem) impede upward swing by rubbing against the chassis. With the design as it is, therefore, if the 73 encounters any kind of transition to an uphill gradient, it's effectively become a rigid 0-8-0 chassis because there's little scope for the bogies to pivot into the vertical curve. The inner axles therefore can't pitch down to maintain track contact. It seems a weird feature, and unnecessary, but I reckon it would be feasible to file down the nubs a bit without removing the bogies, and that ought to offer a bit more vertical play. Any thoughts?

I wonder whether its something to do with maintaining traction rather than the bogie lifting off the rials if pulling a load.

 

The Hornby VEP could do something similar just pulling itself without a bit of tweaking. Off course I could be way off but just a thought.

 

EDIT

 

Didnt see Micks post when typing this as much the similar thoughts

Edited January 26, 2016 by roundhouse