RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted December 9, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 9, 2018 (edited) Perhaps loyal Hattons customers should stand behind Hattons and not move their business elsewhere and maybe try complaining to Bachmann over the hold up of their orders.You could do, but it doesn’t work like that...Models are made in batches, once they are gone, there gone. Would you be ok seeing your wanted item sell out, whilst waiting someone else’s spat to be resolved ? Edited December 9, 2018 by adb968008 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted December 9, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 9, 2018 Perhaps loyal Hattons customers should stand behind Hattons and not move their business elsewhere and maybe try complaining to Bachmann over the hold up of their orders. In a perfect world .Not your battle to fight,sorry to say much as all are sympathetic to the noble cause I have a flash vision of a Jarrow-like crusade of indignant RMWebbers holding up traffic om the A 447 on the approach to Barwell with banners flying. Brexit ? You ain't seen nothing yet Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chamby Posted December 9, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 9, 2018 Has anyone with a Hattons pre-order for Bachmann's new releases made enquiries over the 'phone yet? It would help others to know the official response being given by their customer facing staff. During last year's stock control issues at Hattons, I developed a respect for the frontline staff who were always honest with me... even though they were not perhaps able to share all the dirty washing in public. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 In a perfect world .Not your battle to fight,sorry to say much as all are sympathetic to the noble cause I have a flash vision of a Jarrow-like crusade of indignant RMWebbers holding up traffic om the A 447 on the approach to Barwell with banners flying. Brexit ? You ain't seen nothing yet As long as the demonstration doesn't reach Parisian levels ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted December 9, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 9, 2018 Bring out the full yellow fronts, small yellow panels etc. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matabiau Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 Has anyone with a Hattons pre-order for Bachmann's new releases made enquiries over the 'phone yet? It would help others to know the official response being given by their customer facing staff. During last year's stock control issues at Hattons, I developed a respect for the frontline staff who were always honest with me... even though they were not perhaps able to share all the dirty washing in public. I did a couple of weeks ago following the release of the Southern H2. I rang a couple of times over a period of two weeks each time being told they should be arriving in the next few days. They didn’t needless to say so I cancelled my order. At no time was there any suggestion of a dispute between Hattons and Bachman’s but I didn’t push the matter as it was hardly the fault of the person on the telephone. This is hardly doing Hattons’ or Bachmann’s image any good by keeping the customer in the dark. I just hope it is resolved soon and everyone will forget about it and move on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 You could do, but it doesn’t work like that... Models are made in batches, once they are gone, there gone. Would you be ok seeing your wanted item sell out, whilst waiting someone else’s spat to be resolved ? If it is a spat, the effects could be longer term than that. People might avoid placing orders for Bachmann items at Hattons period. It would take a while for such confidence to return. To be honest, if the market is heading for spats between various parties involved in supplying this hobby, I,ll be off out of it. The hobby is supposed to be a leisure. I do not like this feeling of being a bargain counter in someone else's spat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 I also think RMweb could have performed a responsible press role and clarified the situation. I wouldn't have expected full business details, but at least an assessment of the point of dispute. I have given as much information as I feel it is appropriate to do so (and more than you will find anywhere else), even if I told you everything I think I know it wouldn't actually be of any use to you or anyone else - an assessment would only be an opinion and that's of even less use. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve1023 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 Has anyone with a Hattons pre-order for Bachmann's new releases made enquiries over the 'phone yet? It would help others to know the official response being given by their customer facing staff. During last year's stock control issues at Hattons, I developed a respect for the frontline staff who were always honest with me... even though they were not perhaps able to share all the dirty washing in public. I used the website chat facility thinking I would be talking 'live' with somebody, after 20 minutes of waiting a response the facility cut out without response to my question, so I ordered what I wanted elsewhere, the item duly arrived less than 48 hours later. A further 24 hours after said item arrived I got a response to my question through my e-mail, alas too late. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted December 9, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 9, 2018 Despite cries to the contrary, it is not important that we know the rreasons for the supply issues. it is (IMHO) important the Hattons face up to their customers and tell them realistically if (and perhaps when) they can expect their orders to be fulfilled. I do not like cancelling orders placed in good faith, but in return I do expect a supplier to keep me appraised with the delivery of that order. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 Just as an aside to all this I do note that Hattons Pre Owned stock does seem to be rather on the high side, . 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDG Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 Has anyone with a Hattons pre-order for Bachmann's new releases made enquiries over the 'phone yet? It would help others to know the official response being given by their customer facing staff. During last year's stock control issues at Hattons, I developed a respect for the frontline staff who were always honest with me... even though they were not perhaps able to share all the dirty washing in public. Yes Via their live chat facility as I said a few pages back. The answer I got was that they did not know when they would be getting a delivery from Bachmann, and when pressed further they said they had not been given a hint of a date. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 Just as an aside to all this I do note that Hattons Pre Owned stock does seem to be rather on the high side, . Hattons always was a bit steep when it came to second hand stuff. People pay it though. How many places can you buy second hand items where the retailer will give refunds if there is something wrong?* Not many. *Within reason Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 Hattons always was a bit steep when it came to second hand stuff. People pay it though. How many places can you buy second hand items where the retailer will give refunds if there is something wrong?* Not many. *Within reason Jason My mention of pre used has nothing to do with the actual preused category itself ( I have used it several times with an approx. 25% dissatisfaction rate which was perfectly well sorted out to my satisfaction ) My point is they have a lot of it for example over 250 pre used 00 Steam locos across Hornby & Bachmann, many other categories show high levels of S/H stock take a look at Bemo & Roco as an example. There is a lot of capital obviously tied up waiting for the items to eventually sell, I have no problems with Hattons having been a customer since the 60s and do order frequently but never pre order just buy as and when they show stock is available, in fact they had another order from me just last week 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed-farms Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Hattons always was a bit steep when it came to second hand stuff. Are you sure they always are. In the last few months I have bought 2 Farish Dutch seacows for £22 each and a Dapol/N Gauge Society Collett Full Brake for £23 - The seacows can fetch up to £40-50 and the Collett £40 easily, so I got these for about 50% Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted December 10, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2018 Are you sure they always are. In the last few months I have bought 2 Farish Dutch seacows for £22 each and a Dapol/N Gauge Society Collett Full Brake for £23 - The seacows can fetch up to £40-50 and the Collett £40 easily, so I got these for about 50% The cheap/well-priced stuff goes quickly.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chamby Posted December 10, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2018 Despite cries to the contrary, it is not important that we know the rreasons for the supply issues. it is (IMHO) important the Hattons face up to their customers and tell them realistically if (and perhaps when) they can expect their orders to be fulfilled. I do not like cancelling orders placed in good faith, but in return I do expect a supplier to keep me appraised with the delivery of that order. Agreed, we don’t need to know the reasons, but the consequences for customers are rightly our concern. It is typical in this situation that the customer message is managed on a short term basis, the word “soon” is frequently used. This may be based on hope rather than reality, but it serves to get the business through to the next day. The reality may be rather different however, particularly if the impasse is over deeply held principles, a loss of confidence in the other party, or an activity that one of the parties has heavily committed to (financially and/or resources) that the other has issue with. Some things are not so simple to resolve! I don’t think we need to worry though, as Bachmann customers, about whether we can still get our goods: the question for those who prefer to buy through Hattons is more about whether to wait, or shop elsewhere. Hattons have helpfully publicised their last dispatch days leading up to Christmas, which will help their customers to make their own informed decision. It might be inconvenient, but it’s not an insurmountable problem! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted December 10, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2018 I feel sorry for Hattons . There is an inference they are the bad guys here .Maybe they are or aren’t, I really don’t know . However I would have thought if you placed an order with Hattons and then they place an order with Bachmann then really Bachmann should fulfill these orders . Ok if there is a dispute refuse to accept any new orders , but surely not fulfilling existing orders is bad form, and inconveniencing the end user. I’m assuming it’s not for monetary reasons and there is no financial risk, but more related to T&Cs . OK of course you can cancel order with Hattons and go elsewhere, but with some models in short supply , that’s not always possible. Is it fair to Hattons simply to cancel? From the posts above business seems to be moving. Hattons have produced some fine models and seem to appreciate the need to supply them at reasonable costs . So I absolutely respect their business model and want it to succeed. No idea what’s caused this, whether it’s the direct competition with the 66 a reaction to “Sale of the Century” or Hattons generally discounting of Bachmanns product. Hope it gets resolved , for Hattons and Model Railways in general Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 it will all come down to: Can both parties resolve whatever their impasse is Have Bachmann set aside everything that Hattons ordered prior to the impasse Will customers wait long enough or go elsewhere Will Bachmann hold onto said set aside stock (if it exists) if the impasse isn't resolved shortly and other retailers want to order more stock. Personally if I had a pre-order but could see the same stock at the same price elsewhere i would move my order because waiting around might not result in a happy ending. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 I feel sorry for Hattons . There is an inference they are the bad guys here .Maybe they are or aren’t, I really don’t know . However I would have thought if you placed an order with Hattons and then they place an order with Bachmann then really Bachmann should fulfill these orders . Ok if there is a dispute refuse to accept any new orders , but surely not fulfilling existing orders is bad form, and inconveniencing the end user. I’m assuming it’s not for monetary reasons and there is no financial risk, but more related to T&Cs . OK of course you can cancel order with Hattons and go elsewhere, but with some models in short supply , that’s not always possible. Is it fair to Hattons simply to cancel? From the posts above business seems to be moving. Hattons have produced some fine models and seem to appreciate the need to supply them at reasonable costs . So I absolutely respect their business model and want it to succeed. No idea what’s caused this, whether it’s the direct competition with the 66 a reaction to “Sale of the Century” or Hattons generally discounting of Bachmanns product. Hope it gets resolved , for Hattons and Model Railways in general It is difficult to know who is the villain and who is the hero, that is simply because none of us are in receipt of the facts. One thing we can see is that there has been market disruption, Hattons products are now all over the place with other retailers and said retailers are also benefiting from extra orders for Bachmann stock as a result of the non delivery to Hattons. However, Hattons Sale of the Century may be taking out some money from these retailer with prices they cannot match, so maybe the benefits offset the losses albeit on a limited range of products that weren't or are no longer big sellers. Hattons are also now selling the slower moving Kernow commissions in addition to the Olivia's items plus the Gaugemaster limited edition Terrier locos and sets from Dapol in O. This is clearly beneficial to those retailers with Hattons taking on some of their stock as well as them being able to purchase wholesaled Hattons products. Overheard one retailer extolling the quality and price points of the Hattons products on Saturday so it would seem that retailers are pleased with an expanded range of products and manufacturers. Bachmann are probably not losing out because their stock will still sell through other retailers, it's difficult to gauge whether this is hurting Hattons. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
srihaggis Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Personally if I had a pre-order but could see the same stock at the same price elsewhere i would move my order because waiting around might not result in a happy ending. I ordered an Arriva DVT from a local model shop whom I always generally pre-order from (This was during Hornby's supply farce), said DVT started appearing online at some retailers but quickly disappeared, my retailer kept saying still waiting for delivery, and as soon as the box shifters started to show no stock, I quicky looked on eBay and there was 1 shop on there (Chester model centre) selling them at retail, so I grabbed one. Eventually my original retailer rang me about a month later to say they won't be getting any, so based on this experience, if it's available somewhere else, buy it or risk loosing it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Are you sure they always are. In the last few months I have bought 2 Farish Dutch seacows for £22 each and a Dapol/N Gauge Society Collett Full Brake for £23 - The seacows can fetch up to £40-50 and the Collett £40 easily, so I got these for about 50% Yes. I remember in the 1980s when they had loads of dirt cheap second hand Triang and Hornby-Dublo that they couldn't give away. But all the Lima and Mainline was at prices close to the new models. A bit similar to now. There are bargains though. But as Newbryford says, they go quickly. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 I always check the new arrivals page first thing every morning. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamysandy Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 I'm not at present in the market for British Trains and that's unlikely to change very much so the problems between Bachmann and Hattons don't bother me.But over the last Eighteen months I have picked up a selection of Secondhand Kato trains in what I would term the prestigious end of things. On Friday morning I ordered an eight coach add on set for a Shinkansen Bullet train and by about 2 pm I'd had a message saying it was on its way The Postman was at the door with it at 8-30 am this morning! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chamby Posted December 10, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2018 It is difficult to know who is the villain and who is the hero, that is simply because none of us are in receipt of the facts. One thing we can see is that there has been market disruption, Hattons products are now all over the place with other retailers and said retailers are also benefiting from extra orders for Bachmann stock as a result of the non delivery to Hattons. However, Hattons Sale of the Century may be taking out some money from these retailer with prices they cannot match, so maybe the benefits offset the losses albeit on a limited range of products that weren't or are no longer big sellers. Hattons are also now selling the slower moving Kernow commissions in addition to the Olivia's items plus the Gaugemaster limited edition Terrier locos and sets from Dapol in O. This is clearly beneficial to those retailers with Hattons taking on some of their stock as well as them being able to purchase wholesaled Hattons products. Overheard one retailer extolling the quality and price points of the Hattons products on Saturday so it would seem that retailers are pleased with an expanded range of products and manufacturers. Bachmann are probably not losing out because their stock will still sell through other retailers, it's difficult to gauge whether this is hurting Hattons. There is no villain and no hero here, it is simply market forces playing out. Hattons have had an aggressive strategy over the years to become the nations largest retailer of model railways, thanks to the internet, opportunism and hard graft. They have taken market share from nearly every other retailer in the land. It might seem unfair on the small retailer, but Hattons did nothing wrong, on the contrary. Similar things are happening right now along the high street. Now it looks like another player in the business that feels they are impacted by Hattons’ continuously expanding ambition is not being as passive about it as those retailers were. Bachmann have clauses written into their trading terms and conditions for a very good reason. Presumably Hattons signed up to these some time ago, maybe they have just out-grown them... maybe they are just testing them. You only find out where boundaries really are by pushing against them, until they push back. Dialogue ensues, it will be interesting to see where it leads. This is all normal stuff in a dynamic market place. I’m interested, but not at all worried. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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