Hornby announce Class 800 IEP

[PaulRhB]

After watching the video via the Hornby train shed website, I'm not that impressed. It looks more akin to the Class 395 blue rapier rather than the quality and craftsmanship of the retooled Class 43s.

But which version of the rapier are you comparing it too full fat or Railroad? There's quite a difference side by side on the main range version and this is only a running sample so it's not decorated which makes a big difference to the look like the more basic Railroad Rapier.

 

Railroad

http://www.hattons.co.uk/32090/Hornby_R1139_Blue_Rapier_train_set_with_3_car_Class_395_/StockDetail.aspx

 

Main range

http://www.hornbyguide.com/company_details.asp?companyid=65

[YesTor]

That could be because the real thing is not that dissimilar to the 395 anyway! (yes I know the 800s are longer, etc but the resemblance is there).

 

As such the prof is not how it looks compared to Hornby's HST - its how the 800 compares with the real thing. The HST is a fundamentally different, 40 year old design and cannot be compared in terms of appearance.

 

The only problem is that as the 800s are not yet in passenger service its a bit difficult to examine them close up, but from the photos seen thus far Hornby have done a good job.

 

I think what perhaps hamish_barb is trying to say is that Hornby's 800 doesn't appear to be breaking any boundaries in the 'wow factor' department.  I have to say that I'm inclined to agree.  Detail and appearance-wise it does indeed seem to be pretty much on par with the earlier main range Class 395, and that tooling is a few years old now already?  Sure, it's all 'quite nice', however looking at the Hornby video and the first thing that struck me is how 'chunky' some of the separately-fitted detailing appears around the pantograph/roof-well area, while some of the roof detail such as cabling etc appears to be moulded-on.  I guess when it's all painted it will all appear to be acceptable, much like the 395. 

 

Still, when all is said and done this is a prototype and indeed a model that will most likely be around for the next couple of decades (at least), and this is surely an opportunity for Hornby to 'shine' by producing something truly innovating, as opposed to something just okay/acceptable/quite nice.  Some models that come to market are truly ground-breaking for their time, I'm just not feeling that the 800 will quite fall into that category.  Of course, there's still time for refinements and I hope that Hornby prove me wrong, and I'll happily eat my words.

 

In short 'good', but perhaps not 'great'...

Edited May 7, 2017 by YesTor

[hamish_barb]

I have both the class 395 blue rapier and the dcc ready retooled versions (Sir Chris Hoy)

 

Judging by the video, the class 800 looks like the blue rapier. I've only just started collecting but I can tell the difference quite easily between this and Hornby's Class 43's that I'm collecting, which are very very nice.

 

Also, compared to say similar Bachman models. I've got the class 221 which is I think at least 5 years old, and that looks miles better.

 

I was expecting more of the wow factor for this class 800, but unfortunately, I just don't see it right now, which is a shame because as other posters have rightly mentioned, this is our new "HST" and will be for the next few decades. Furthermore, for the eye watering price Hornby are charging, I honestly expect more.

 

IMHO, this model looks very toy like and could be a lot lot better. I may actually be cancelling my preorder once I've seen it in the flesh.

 

EDIT: Would also like to point out, that my Class 395s cost around £150 brand new, and for that price I find the quality to be very good. However for more than double the price (albeit with an extra car), Hornby cannot justify that price for a model that looks very toy like.

Edited May 5, 2017 by hamish_barb

[black and decker boy]

Hornby will be striving for the best balance between detail and price. The more detail the higher the price. The higher the price, the lower the sales may be.

 

Chinese factory prices are rising, currency rates have moved post Brexit and Hornby have to factor both into their pricing structure so a class 395 bought years ago for £150 isn't comparable to a class 800 to be bought later in 2017/18.

 

Let's wait for the production run before we judge the model.

[jjb1970]

Modern passenger trains tend to be much cleaner looking than older ones which removes a lot of the potential for model makers to achieve the wow factor.

[hamish_barb]

Modern passenger trains tend to be much cleaner looking than older ones which removes a lot of the potential for model makers to achieve the wow factor.

 

 

I think we will have to agree to disagree. As I briefly mentioned above, the Bachmann 221 is also a modern passenger train, but the level of detail is simply much higher than the Class 800 that Hornby are producing.

 

I know this is a pre-production model, but it looks as if Hornby is relying on the paint/vinyls to really spruce up the train, rather than the moulding. As YesTor mentioned above, the cabling on top of the trains looks very toy like

 

Even with brexit, when comparing it to the Class 395 (which I think is a fair comparison, as it is only a few years old), the extra £200 price increase is insanely high for similar levels of detail. Furthermore, if this train uses the same single motor bogey like the Class 395 and the Pendolinos/Eurostars, instead of the twin flywheel like the re-tooled Class 43s, then I'm afraid Hornby is taking us for a ride.

[Roy Langridge]

I think we will have to agree to disagree. As I briefly mentioned above, the Bachmann 221 is also a modern passenger train, but the level of detail is simply much higher than the Class 800 that Hornby are producing.

 

I know this is a pre-production model, but it looks as if Hornby is relying on the paint/vinyls to really spruce up the train, rather than the moulding. As YesTor mentioned above, the cabling on top of the trains looks very toy like

 

Even with brexit, when comparing it to the Class 395 (which I think is a fair comparison, as it is only a few years old), the extra £200 price increase is insanely high for similar levels of detail. Furthermore, if this train uses the same single motor bogey like the Class 395 and the Pendolinos/Eurostars, instead of the twin flywheel like the re-tooled Class 43s, then I'm afraid Hornby is taking us for a ride.

 

I just cannot see this level of detail in the 220 that you seem are saying is there. The tanks on the end of the roofs look toy-like and the grills on the sides are pretty basic. The bogies are rubbish on the 220 and much better on the IEP.

 

I am not saying that the IEP is much better overall, but it is not a step behind the Bachmann offering either.

​Roy

[Ron Ron Ron]

Although this is only a pre-production example, presumably the body shell is made up from early production test shots.

If so, I don't expect there will be any significant changes to the tooling.

 

Hornby have worked closely with Hitachi on this project and have said that they've worked from drawing supplied by the manufacturer.

However, on the limited evidence so far, it's potentially disappointing that they might have got the front end of the train wrong, most notably the windscreen size and shape.

 

The prototype's windscreen is prominently curved along its top edge. Hornby appear to have made it rather flatter, giving the impression that it's a little squat. 

It's hard to tell from the photos supplied and the video, but the headlight cluster also doesn't look quite right either, possibly being a little undersized and positioned too low down.

We'll have to wait for better photos of the model, taken from appropriate viewing angles, before we can form a more accurate opinion.

 

Comparison with photos of the prototype are currently difficult, as Hornby have yet to show us a painted examples.

The 3D demo examples they have been taking around the exhibition circuit and shown on the web site, are quite crude at the front end as one might reasonably expect, but clearly wrong.

 

 

https://youtu.be/F65ZXcxrSFU?t=45

 

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/WU16dA64WLo/maxresdefault.jpg

 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmMxSJ5WIAAQHjc.jpg

 

 

.

[black and decker boy]

Well, you don't have to buy one if you feel they are ripping you off.

 

I don't see that £375 RRP is too dissimilar to their competition for a 5 car multiple unit.

 

If Hornby get it wrong then you will be able to get the in bargain bin sales during 2018 but then again, if Hornby have got it right (like the peckett) then you will be sat on the sidelines with no trainset to play with whilst everyone else enjoys their sleek new Intercity Express Train

[phil-b259]

Although this is only a pre-production example, presumably the body shell is made up from early production test shots.

If so, I don't expect there will be any significant changes to the tooling.

 

Hornby have worked closely with Hitachi on this project and have said that they've worked from drawing supplied by the manufacturer.

However, on the limited evidence so far, it's potentially disappointing that they might have got the front end of the train wrong, most notably the windscreen size and shape.

 

The prototype's windscreen is prominently curved along its top edge. Hornby appear to have made it rather flatter, giving the impression that it's a little squat. 

It's hard to tell from the photos supplied and the video, but the headlight cluster also doesn't look quite right either, possibly being a little undersized and positioned too low down.

We'll have to wait for better photos of the model, taken from appropriate viewing angles, before we can form a more accurate opinion.

 

Comparison with photos of the prototype are currently difficult, as Hornby have yet to show us a painted examples.

The 3D demo examples they have been taking around the exhibition circuit and shown on the web site, are quite crude at the front end as one might reasonably expect, but clearly wrong.

 

 

https://youtu.be/F65ZXcxrSFU?t=45

 

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/WU16dA64WLo/maxresdefault.jpg

 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmMxSJ5WIAAQHjc.jpg

 

 

.

 

How do you know its wrong? do you have the official Hiatchi drawings to work from like Hornby?

 

A more likely scenario is that some dimensions of some of the complex curves simply don't 'scale well' and look wrong to our eyes even if, dimensionality, they are spot on. We see this with paint colours and its very easy to fool the eyes - as the many which shape is larger style of puzzles show.

[Ron Ron Ron]

A more likely scenario is that some dimensions of some of the complex curves simply don't 'scale well' and look wrong to our eyes even if, dimensionality, they are spot on. 

 

That might be the case here Phil, but the first indication something might be amiss was the CAD type image they released when the model was announced.

 

Obviously I don't have Hitachi's official drawings, but I've seen these trains in the metal, and there are tons of photos available on the web from which it's possible to make certain comparisons, albeit with little in the way of images from Hornby as yet.

I'm giving Hornby the benefit of doubt until better evidence is available.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_11_2016/post-1-0-08432300-1479905164.jpg

 

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/XoNV2oo4_os/maxresdefault.jpg

 

 

.

[Roy Langridge]

That might be the case here Phil, but the first indication something might be amiss was the CAD type image they released when the model was announced.

 

Obviously I don't have Hitachi's official drawings, but I've seen these trains in the metal, and there are tons of photos available on the web from which it's possible to make certain comparisons, albeit with little in the way of images from Hornby as yet.

I'm giving Hornby the benefit of doubt until better evidence is available.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_11_2016/post-1-0-08432300-1479905164.jpg

 

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/XoNV2oo4_os/maxresdefault.jpg

 

 

.

Doesn't look very flat to me:

 

https://admin.Hornby.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Hitachi-IEP-800_6_web.jpg

 

https://admin.Hornby.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/lights-collage.jpg

 

Roy

Edited May 7, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[Ron Ron Ron]

Doesn't look very flat to me:...

 

https://admin.Hornby.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/lights-collage.jpg

 

Roy

 

 

Thanks for those photos Roy, particularly the lower ones of the pre-production model.

I've now seen them on the Hornby web site.

 

The size and position of the main lights units look good to me from those images and the nose shape looks very lifelike.

 

I can now see the top of the windscreen is suitably curved, but in some of the views it still doesn't look right somehow.

Is it the gap between the high level headlight and the top of the windscreen? It does look excessively large compared with the prototype.

Could the wide gap result from the curvature being too shallow, or the depth of the screen (height) be too short?

 

It's weird as in the top image of these two, it looks right, but the gap to the headlight is still too wide. However in the lower image it doesn't look right to my eyes at all.

I must be going barmy?

 

.

[John ks]

 

Is it the gap between the high level headlight and the top of the windscreen? It does look excessively large compared with the prototype.

Could the wide gap result from the curvature being too shallow, or the depth of the screen (height) be too short?

 

It's weird as in the top image of these two, it looks right, but the gap to the headlight is still too wide. However in the lower image it doesn't look right to my eyes at all.

I must be going barmy?

 

.

 

The glass in the prototype appears to be glued in position in a similar way to modern car windscreens

allowing the windscreens to be flush with the body

There will be an border on the inside that is painted black

 

To me it looks as if Hornby have made the window openings large enough to represent the clear part of the opening &

have moulded groves in the body to represent the edge of the glass

When painted I am guessing the area between these groves & the transparent window mould will be painted black to give a representation of the black boarder on the inside of the glass

 

The drawing might help explain my thoughts

 

 

Of coarse I could be completely wrong

 

John

[7013]

Just as an aside, whilst looking at the pre prod running video I noted a circuit of ballasted track on the inside circuit. Hornby used to drop little teasers in to their videos like this. Now I would not want to get people excited but wouldn't it be nice to have pre ballasted flexintrack?

[MGR Hooper!]

Just as an aside, whilst looking at the pre prod running video I noted a circuit of ballasted track on the inside circuit. Hornby used to drop little teasers in to their videos like this. Now I would not want to get people excited but wouldn't it be nice to have pre ballasted flexintrack?

 

IIRC I did visit one model shop in 2012 and they had the same track. It's flexitrack from one of the European manufacturers (Roco-Fleishman)

 

https://www.1001modelkits.com/model-trains-ho/239228-roco-fleischmann-rf-6109-flexible-track-with-concrete-sleepers-and-bendable-ballast-base-length-800-mm-.html

Edited May 8, 2017 by MGR Hooper!

[Legend]

Just as an aside, whilst looking at the pre prod running video I noted a circuit of ballasted track on the inside circuit. Hornby used to drop little teasers in to their videos like this. Now I would not want to get people excited but wouldn't it be nice to have pre ballasted flexintrack?

Hadn't noticed that. Yes I think it would be good to have pre ballasted track. There do seem to be some fairly tight curves on it though, not sure if it's not just part of the test track they use, it may have been on previous videos.

 

On the IET, it looks pretty good to me , although a bit on the pricey side. It's going to be around for a long time though. Will wait to see what versions emerge before I take the plunge

[Ian Hargrave]

Hadn't noticed that. Yes I think it would be good to have pre ballasted track. There do seem to be some fairly tight curves on it though, not sure if it's not just part of the test track they use, it may have been on previous videos.

On the IET, it looks pretty good to me , although a bit on the pricey side. It's going to be around for a long time though. Will wait to see what versions emerge before I take the plunge

I imagine in your case it'll be the Vtec version. And I 'm sure a Scotrail 125 will be on the radar soon.Good times ahead for modellers north of Brexit .....oops !

 

Only problem with the IET is its length for some layouts.I am quite certain Hornby have a winner here despite what certain of our august forum say.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Ian Hargrave

[JSpencer]

How do you know its wrong? do you have the official Hiatchi drawings to work from like Hornby?

 

A more likely scenario is that some dimensions of some of the complex curves simply don't 'scale well' and look wrong to our eyes even if, dimensionality, they are spot on. We see this with paint colours and its very easy to fool the eyes - as the many which shape is larger style of puzzles show.

 

The Camera can and does lie often. The model will be small than most reflex cameras taking a photo of it. It will also be 2 to 3ft away which is like photographing from a scale 150 to 210 ft away.

The real thing dwarfs the camera and likely be photographed from 15 to 30 ft away. This changes the whole perception of the nose shape. 

Likewise your Mk1 eyeballs are spaced a few inches apart and can give two very distinct views of the nose of the model which the mind will then merge into a stereoscopic image. If I was to place the model even 12 inches in front of my nose, I can still see both sides of the model. You cannot do this with the prototype even if you placed it 5 miles away.

 

You need to really view the prototype from a distance in order to asses its shape with the model and view both with just one eye. The mind can wildly misinterpret angles, I've seen pictures of battleship guns which look to be elevated at 45 degrees on ships that technically could not even reach that. For years people argued the ships had greater elevation based on these pictures (greater elevation - up to 45 or 50 degrees depending on the guns power and the thinness of the air the shell has to travel through - means longer range and the ability to use plunging fire - i;e increased anti deck armour performance). The case was settled when someone modeled turrets in CAD and proved that is was possible for the photo to give the impression of higher elevations when trained at certain angles taken from certain distances and it also proved that said photos did not reveal higher elevations than official data.

 

The mind is capable of all kinds of misinterpretations and tricks.

Edited May 9, 2017 by JSpencer

[Ian Hargrave]

Online imaging causes a rush to judgment in terms of size,shape and colour and all too often deceives.A peril of our instantaneous society.We cannot wait for anything it seems.Hey ho....the way of the world...

[Legend]

I imagine in your case it'll be the Vtec version. And I 'm sure a Scotrail 125 will be on the radar soon.Good times ahead for modellers north of Brexit .....oops !

Only problem with the IET is its length for some layouts.I am quite certain Hornby have a winner here despite what certain of our august forum say.

You're right enough Ian. A Scotrail HST, prefer a Railroad one, and VTEC units under consideration. I actually stopped modelling really modern image some years ago with the profusion of changes in liveries, meaning I was never up to date. However the Dapol 68 could change that. Although I have to say model railways have gone slightly off the boil for me at the moment. Much more into modelling airliners just now, recapturing my youth , but trying to do it properly this time! Edited May 9, 2017 by Legend

[Hilux5972]

Although I have to say model railways have gone slightly off the boil for me at the moment. Much more into modelling airliners just now, recapturing my youth , but trying to do it properly this time!

Talk about heresy! And so openly too. Or should that be blasphemy?

[159220]

Looking overall very good to me, seeing both the brake resistors and fuel tanks are separate parts means all of the 800, 801 and 802 can be modelled in the future.

 

Shape of the nose looks good, naturally painting detail shall change the 'shape'. All 1EP samples on overall grey improve a lot one tweaked and painted. From the earlier posted artwork/computer generated 800002 you can start to get an idea of what the final model shall look like...light years ahead of the Class 395 (a shiny toy like train with those separate coach ends)!

 

Just disappointing to not see etched parts (at this stage). Ideally the underframe engine grills should be etched, along with grills for the alternator on the driving cars. These etches, along with the roof fans being etched shall make the model look superb. There is a clear difference between the separate part of the roof fan verses the driving car roof. Either way, etching shall solve this (as it does with different roof features on the Class 43).

 

I totally agree, modern units are smooth and thus the littlest of detail there is when done with attention makes all the difference. Hornby are clearly nearly there with a superb looking product, just needs extra bling to make this one epic model for £££.

 

I am sure these etches shall be done, usually cannot be seen on a 1st EP.

Edited May 9, 2017 by 159220

[TFR]

New images* on the Hornby site.

 

 

*images I haven't seen before

Edited May 28, 2017 by TFR

[Hilux5972]

Pretty sure those were in a recent Engine Shed.