Peco Bullhead Points: in the flesh

[RBAGE]

5 hours ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

more of a N gauge joiner chap for c75 bullhead myself, then glue the Exactoscale jobbers either side (they always snap on me anyway).

 

 

 

I've used Z gauge joiners, pinched around the rail with a pair of pliers. Almost invisible. But with the 4 bolt fishplates that Peco produce, all that is history. However, there's is now way that anyone can produce an insulating joiner that looks correct and is as reliable and robust as the conductive joiners. In my humble opinion.

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by RBAGE
Fishplates

[Nile]

N gauge insulated joiners work fine with BH75 track, even if they don't look great.

[martin_wynne]

13 hours ago, Harlequin said:

The PECO bullhead joiners fit between the chairs at standard bullhead sleeper spacing. No chairs need to be harmed to use them.

 

At rail joints in bullhead track the sleepers are closed up to 24 inches spacing, centre-to-centre (8mm in 00/EM/P4). Standard chairs are 8 inches wide, so the space between the chairs is 16 inches. Standard bullhead fishplates are 18 inches long (6mm in 00/EM/P4) which means that they overlap the chair base by 1 inch at each end, leaving just 1 inch between the end of the fishplate and the chair jaw. For this reason the keys at rail joints are always driven into the chair from the opposite side.

 

If wider "joint" chairs are used adjacent to rail joints, they have a base 10 inches wide, so the fishplate overlaps the chair base by 2 inches at each end.

 

Reinforced "skirted" fishplates are now used on running lines subject to heavy traffic, or in other locations where standard fishplates have failed. They are not usually found on branch lines, in yards and sidings, etc., except where recently renewed. In steam days the vast majority of bullhead fishplates were of the standard type, the skirted type look out of place on preserved heritage lines.

 

Martin.

[Gilbert]

40 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

In my experience, it's worth noting you don't always get brownie points for using superb-looking fishplates (and indeed other tiny prototypical track components), but viewers at exhibitions always notice electrical problems and derailments, both of which the Peco product helps avoid.

 

Well said Sir...

[martin_wynne]

1 hour ago, Captain Kernow said:

In my experience, it's worth noting you don't always get brownie points for using superb-looking fishplates (and indeed other tiny prototypical track components), but viewers at exhibitions always notice electrical problems and derailments, both of which the Peco product helps avoid. Vanilla ice cream.

 

If you stand alongside a branch line railway, it is likely to be several minutes, or even hours, before a train passes by. Taking only a minute or so to do so.

 

This means that viewers spend vastly more time looking at the track than at the trains. For this reason some modellers like to model the track as correctly as possible.

 

Raspberry ripple for me.

 

Martin.

[Bill Eaton]

On my EM gauge layout, currently still at the track laying stage with the track on the scenic part on three sides done and the storage sidings on the fourth side yet to do, I have used the Peco bullhead rail joiners at the joins between the separate (nominally metre) lengths of EMGS track. The track is, of course, manufactured for the EMGS by Peco and the Peco rail joiners are sold by the EMGS stores. My personal view is that the appearance of these joiners is quite acceptable, certainly at normal viewing distance. If there is a trade off between appearance and the absence of running problems by misalignment of the rails then the latter wins out for me. My track is laid on Templot templates which show joints at scale 60 foot intervals along with correct sleeper spacings at the joints, and I have arranged, as far as is possible having regard to where the baseboard joints are, for the end of each length of flexible track to coincide with a rail joint, even though this does lead to some wastage of track. At the locations within each length of track where there is a rail joint on the template I propose to have a dummy joint where I will make a cut part way through each rail and either glue in or solder one of the brass fishplates also sold by the EMGS stores, thereby creating a dummy rail joint which should look right but with no complete break in the rail. I have yet to do this, as I plan to finish the track laying and then test it all thoroughly before proceeding further. I will therefore end up with two types of fishplate, one functional and one cosmetic. In due course I shall await with interest for the first visitor to spot this.

[Captain Kernow]

3 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

If you stand alongside a branch line railway, it is likely to be several minutes, or even hours, before a train passes by. Taking only a minute or so to do so.

 

This means that viewers spend vastly more time looking at the track than at the trains. For this reason some modellers like to model the track as correctly as possible.

 

Raspberry ripple for me.

 

Martin.

Completely understandable point of view and one to which I mostly subscribe.

 

But it's not just about the appearance, important though that is, it is about reliability and a metal fishplate is always going to win over a plastic one.

 

I would also suggest that the majority of visitors watching layouts at exhibitions don't have the enforced attention span, that someone 'waiting for the next train' by the lineside has to have. In my experience, they will wait a few minutes and then wander off, looking for a layout where there is something moving.

 

That, of course, doesn't dictate to me how I model my track, however I do it, is for me rather than anyone else!

 

[Roy Langridge]

4 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

But it's not just about the appearance, important though that is, it is about reliability and a metal fishplate is always going to win over a plastic one.

 

Depends how you wire your layout - mine always have separate power feeds to every piece of track, any power transmitted via fishplates then being an added, but unnecessary, bonus.

Roy

Edited October 25, 2021 by Roy Langridge
Typo

[Captain Kernow]

2 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

Depends how you wire your layout - mine always have separate power feeds to every piece of track, any power transmitted via fishplates then being an added, but unnecessary, bonus.

Roy

Indeed, but my main argument is in favour of rail alignment. I would use a metal fishplate as a back-up only to fully wired track sections.

 

[muddys-blues]

Hello, may be this question has been asked before no doubt, but here goes.

 

Has it been muted yet by Peco a date for the arrival of the double slip in this bullhead range ?

I did look at kit built offerings by C&L, but the price took me a bit by surprise , and I am only after a double slip now for my project.

 

Thanks in advance

Craig 

[RBAGE]

1 minute ago, muddys-blues said:

Hello, may be this question has been asked before no doubt, but here goes.

 

Has it been muted yet by Peco a date for the arrival of the double slip in this bullhead range ?

I did look at kit built offerings by C&L, but the price took me a bit by surprise , and I am only after a double slip now for my project.

 

Thanks in advance

Craig 

Latest update from Peco suggests they will be available in Autumn/Winter, this year.

I am in the same boat. I need a diamond to start my junction layout. I opted to go for the expensive C&L kit. Since placing the order, I have had no news of shipment.

I am led to believe his service isn't the best.

[Skinnylinny]

I'm also still waiting - I managed to pick up the bits to make a single slip from C&L at the Uckfield show recently, and it's certainly not for the faint-hearted (I'm making it to match the Peco Streamline geometry, so none of the templates or jigs suit) but it's been an interesting challenge so far. Certainly testing my knowledge of how prototype track goes together!



I'm mainly building it on the basis of "as soon as you finish kit/scratch-building, that's when the RTR manufacturers will bring out theirs!"

[Pacific231G]

On 25/10/2021 at 11:16, martin_wynne said:

 

At rail joints in bullhead track the sleepers are closed up to 24 inches spacing, centre-to-centre (8mm in 00/EM/P4). Standard chairs are 8 inches wide, so the space between the chairs is 16 inches. Standard bullhead fishplates are 18 inches long (6mm in 00/EM/P4) which means that they overlap the chair base by 1 inch at each end, leaving just 1 inch between the end of the fishplate and the chair jaw. For this reason the keys at rail joints are always driven into the chair from the opposite side.

 

If wider "joint" chairs are used adjacent to rail joints, they have a base 10 inches wide, so the fishplate overlaps the chair base by 2 inches at each end.

 

Reinforced "skirted" fishplates are now used on running lines subject to heavy traffic, or in other locations where standard fishplates have failed. They are not usually found on branch lines, in yards and sidings, etc., except where recently renewed. In steam days the vast majority of bullhead fishplates were of the standard type, the skirted type look out of place on preserved heritage lines.

 

Martin.

Good afternoon Martin. That's interesting and informative but I doubt if many people are really going to cut their track into 60' panel lengths and then use rail joiners at prototypical spacing. Would it s it not make more sense to close up the sleepers where track joins would be tnen add dummy fishplates and possibly notch the railhead? I've never seen a commercially produced one for British track - does anyone offer such a thing?-but I have seen jigs* in H0  from the Swiss Apogee-Vapeur (for correctly spacing sleepers for the different track panels used by France's railways) and they were clearly designed with Peco's FB track, which we all know is to H0 scale,  in mind. The A-V jigs are long enough for a  couple of track panels so you can work your way along the track. Such a jig wouldn't be that hard to make .  I'm definitely no finescale modeller but I  had no trouble making up a jig for spacing Peco H0 track for sidings and it's just plasticard strips on a piece of hardboard. 

 

Insulated track joiners don't look good au natural but I've got several on my layout and, with the track ballasted and painted,  I'm having the devil's own job finding them!  

 

*https://apogee-vapeur.ch/collection-vmm/gabarits-de-pleine-voie

with links to the suggested method.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Pacific231G

[hayfield]

17 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

Good afternoon Martin. That's interesting and informative but I doubt if many people are really going to cut their track into 60' panel lengths and then use rail joiners at prototypical spacing. Would it s it not make more sense to close up the sleepers where track joins would be tnen add dummy fishplates and possibly notch the railhead?

 

 

 

For years in the model press there have been a few modellers who have notched their track into 60' or 45' panels

 

 

17 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

 

 

I've never seen a commercially produced one for British track - does anyone offer such a thing?-

 

4 mm scale 00 gauge track has been available, in fact the first Peco offerings were to 00scale/gauge

 

SMP & C&L have been supplying 4mm scale 00 gauge flexitrack for years

 

Exactoscale have been selling 00 gauge track bases in 45' & 60' panels for years with the correct sleeper spacing, however you had to fit the chairs yourself

 

C&L earlier this year introduced their new 00 gauge flexitrack in 60' panels with the correct sleeper spacing and 12" sleepers at both ends (EM and P4 track is nearly ready for introduction, plus the C&L track has keys in the chairs !!!

 

You can either notch the rails or cut them to length

 

Forget rail joiners, if you fix your track to the baseboard both Exactoscale and C&L sell functional H section fishplates both in plastic and brass. They work extremely well and look so much better than any rail joiner. If notching the rail you can either separate the plastic fishplates or use etched brass ones stuck or soldered in place

 

17 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

 

 

 

but I have seen jigs* in H0  from the Swiss Apogee-Vapeur (for correctly spacing sleepers for the different track panels used by France's railways) and they were clearly designed with Peco's FB track, which we all know is to H0 scale,  in mind. The A-V jigs are long enough for a  couple of track panels so you can work your way along the track. Such a jig wouldn't be that hard to make .  I'm definitely no finescale modeller but I  had no trouble making up a jig for spacing Peco H0 track for sidings and it's just plasticard strips on a piece of hardboard. 

 

There is no need now to do all of this with the new track

 

17 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

 

Insulated track joiners don't look good au natural but I've got several on my layout and, with the track ballasted and painted,  I'm having the devil's own job finding them!  

 

*https://apogee-vapeur.ch/collection-vmm/gabarits-de-pleine-voie

with links to the suggested method.

 

 

Do look for the plastic fishplates (and brass ones ) so much better

[PMP]

On 02/11/2021 at 09:03, Skinnylinny said:

I'm mainly building it on the basis of "as soon as you finish kit/scratch-building, that's when the RTR manufacturers will bring out theirs!"

On behalf of us lot waiting, thank you

Edited November 3, 2021 by PMP

[Pacific231G]

On 03/11/2021 at 09:31, hayfield said:

 

4 mm scale 00 gauge track has been available, in fact the first Peco offerings were to 00scale/gauge

 

SMP & C&L have been supplying 4mm scale 00 gauge flexitrack for years

 

Exactoscale have been selling 00 gauge track bases in 45' & 60' panels for years with the correct sleeper spacing, however you had to fit the chairs yourself

 

C&L earlier this year introduced their new 00 gauge flexitrack in 60' panels with the correct sleeper spacing and 12" sleepers at both ends (EM and P4 track is nearly ready for introduction, plus the C&L track has keys in the chairs !!!

 

 

Sorry, my sentence was a bit convoluted. It was jigs to set sleepers at prototypical spacings that I was referring to, not OO track supplied RTL with British sleeper spacing which has indeed been around since the 1950s or earlier. 

Peco's early offerings were interesting and I have a copy of a book they produced in 1949 called "The Peco Platelayer's Manual" with an introduction by John Ahern. They had adopted BRMSB standards though they offered instructions on adjusting the track (points mostly) to handle the coarser proprietary standards with different flange depths and back to backs of Hornby Dublo and Trix.

 

There did seem to be an assumption at that time that scale modellers would  build their own track and Peco's early products were bascially designed to make that easier with ready to lay track coming later. Pecoway consisted of sections of trackbed  (or points) with the ballast and sleepers colour printed in embossed  relief including ready punched holes for the chairs they supplied. I've never seen an example of this so have no idea how it looked.  Individulaly had a Foundation Tape of "stout grey paper" with the sleeper outlines and dots marking the position of the holes for the chairs printed on it and the sleepers were of fibre. It was all bullhead but there was a "stop press" announcement that, British Railways having just announced their decision to standardise future track with a "new Flat Bottom Rail Section", Peco would now offer FB rail as well as bullhead.

Most RTL track  such as Formoway and Wrenn and Peco's own  assembled Pecoway points used fibre sleepers for years (though I do have an example of an Accro point kit with wooden timbering)  It was Wrenn,  who were already supplying H0 scale track into the export market  alongside their domestic OO products,  who were the first to start offering H0 scale track to the UK market  (as a finer scale product!) and not Peco who did that with Streamline.    

Edited August 3, 2022 by Pacific231G
clarity

[Gilbert]

Peco have released a Youtube of their new C70 US HO unifrog points - the frog looks slightly different from the BH version....more plastic and more breaks in the rail.....have they quietly addressed the shorting issue one or two have encountered with fat wheels?

 

[meatloaf]

Im probably going to pick up a few of these bullhead points.

 

So, being unifrog are all tracks live at all times?

If i want to power the frog can i just reuse my DCC80 autofrogs? Its only a small layout so ill stick to manual control of the blades

Am i right in thinking that i wont need insulating joiners on crossovers and facing frogs = in the run round loop for instance?

Will nomal peco code 75 fishplates work ok?

 

Cheers

Edited November 22, 2021 by meatloaf

[Gilbert]

11 minutes ago, meatloaf said:

Im probably going to pick up a few of these bullhead points.

 

So, being unifrog are all tracks live at all times?

If i want to power the frog can i just reuse my DCC80 autofrogs? Its only a small layout so ill stick to manual control of the blades

Am i right in thinking that i wont need insulating joiners on crossovers and facing frogs = in the run round loop for instance?

Will nomal peco code 75 fishplates work ok?

 

Cheers

From my limited knowledge..

1. Yes

2. Not sure - if its a clever  automatic polarity switch I don't see why it wouldn't work - I use an aux on my point motors for my frogs.

3. I think so - I certainly didn't use any on the crossover on my layout Penmaenbach

4. They make specific BH railjoiners which look much better

Chris

Edited November 22, 2021 by Gilbert

[meatloaf]

Well today i picked up 2 points and 3 lengths of bullhead flexi and the special bullhead fishplates.

 

First impressions were the flexi is very delicate. 

 

I then tried to connect 2 bits of the flex using the fishplates. Took me ages to even get the fishplates on. There smaller than n scale fishplates. 

 

I havent even opened the points and ill return them to the shop or sell them on again as its much to flimsy.

[TonyW]

Yes they are more delicate but only to be expected for finer scale items, can't have it both ways.  Rail joiners are difficult but with the use of a simple home made 'tool' from a 2" length of scrap BH rail are easy to attach.  I will post a couple of photos when I get time.  Very pleased with Peco's BH track and looking forwards to the slips and crossings.

 

Tony

[newbryford]

 

6 minutes ago, TonyW said:

Yes they are more delicate but only to be expected for finer scale items, can't have it both ways.  

 

Exactly.

 

Bullhead track is inherently more flexible than FB because of the lack of the wide base of FB resisting bending.

Bullhead track has less "meat" at the rail base for a moulded base to grab around it and is more likely to pop out of the track base moulding.

 

i.e. it will be more delicate.

 

I thought Code 75 FB was delicate when compared to Code 100 FB, but BH is almost another order of magnitude on the delicate scale!

 

 

 

 

[Ben Alder]

They are a step change from Code 100 that so many seem to still use but the improvement in appearance is worth it. Need a bit more care,but track has lingered far behind all other improvements in 00 these last decades and it is good to see some innovation here.

 

[newbryford]

On 22/11/2021 at 18:37, meatloaf said:

Im probably going to pick up a few of these bullhead points.

 

So, being unifrog are all tracks live at all times?

If i want to power the frog can i just reuse my DCC80 autofrogs? Its only a small layout so ill stick to manual control of the blades

Am i right in thinking that i wont need insulating joiners on crossovers and facing frogs = in the run round loop for instance?

Will nomal peco code 75 fishplates work ok?

 

Cheers

 

The unifrog is only live if you want it to be.

 

Accomplished by connecting it to a switch - be it a motor/tiebar mounted switch or a frog juicer type device.

[Jeff Smith]

2 hours ago, TonyW said:

Yes they are more delicate but only to be expected for finer scale items, can't have it both ways.  Rail joiners are difficult but with the use of a simple home made 'tool' from a 2" length of scrap BH rail are easy to attach.  I will post a couple of photos when I get time.  Very pleased with Peco's BH track and looking forwards to the slips and crossings.

 

Tony

Use a needle file to file the web and foot to a point, say 90 degrees, to make installing the rail joiners easier.  Keep the head of the rail square though!