Hornby 2021 - HST & Mk3 range

[James Makin]

3 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

And Hornby themselves could do it 15 years ago.   There may have been a price differential vs the rest of the range, but if any modern livery could carry that premium (in the same way the LNER teaks carry their price premium over other pre nationalisation coaches) it would be FGW based on the resale prices…

 

I hope some do end up bargain binned, though given Hornby’s usual tiny production runs that may mitigate it.   I am very interested to see how the roof looks next to a rake of older Hornby mk 3 as a potential for replacing Lima TGS and a cheaper example would be perfect for an experiment 

 

The roof tops are very similar to their older Mk3s so I’d say a good enough match! The actual models are pretty decent, just the transfer element of the livery lets it down, and as on my Facebook post on the FGW modelling group, there’s much variation on the quality of application! 5 of the 40 coaches ordered (12.5%) are incredibly poor with wonky lines and are going to be exchanged at Hornby, hopefully for better examples, fingers crossed. First time I’ve ever sent models back to the manufacturer I think! 😂
 

One thing that may interest you Rich - the models appear to be all-over GW green behind the transfer decals, I was mulling an ideal base to make some modern-day Merlin ones by spraying the lower half in ivory etc, especially as the window frames and upper detailing is beautifully applied, just wapping on some new carriage lettering and they’d be good to go! Just a thought at this stage, should the supply of old Hornby Merlins dry up! 
 

Cheers,

James

[The Fatadder]

4 minutes ago, James Makin said:

The roof tops are very similar to their older Mk3s so I’d say a good enough match! The actual models are pretty decent, just the transfer element of the livery lets it down, and as on my Facebook post on the FGW modelling group, there’s much variation on the quality of application! 5 of the 40 coaches ordered (12.5%) are incredibly poor with wonky lines and are going to be exchanged at Hornby, hopefully for better examples, fingers crossed. First time I’ve ever sent models back to the manufacturer I think! 😂
 

One thing that may interest you Rich - the models appear to be all-over GW green behind the transfer decals, I was mulling an ideal base to make some modern-day Merlin ones by spraying the lower half in ivory etc, especially as the window frames and upper detailing is beautifully applied, just wapping on some new carriage lettering and they’d be good to go! Just a thought at this stage, should the supply of old Hornby Merlins dry up! 
 

Cheers,

James

Thats good to hear, for me the key is how the roof ribs compare as this is where the ex Lima model really stands out vs the Hornby.  the separate parts for roof vents etc is something I can work with (if it stands out too much there is always the option of cutting off / replacing a new part) while the separate grab handles is something that can be retrofitted.  (while the extra detail around the ends ETH etc I am already fitting).  Certainly worthy of further investigation, I do wonder if the answer for a FGW coach is going to be removing Hornbys transfer and refitting with the Railtec ones.  The logic being that if you are adding the transfer yourself you can ensure its fit over the door gaps, details etc.    Though to be honest if I add another HST set I probably ought to add another set of Virgin coaches before doing any more GWT / FGW having already got 3 sets in Merlin... 

As an aside one of my Merlin TGS and one of my Merlin Sleepers both started as the last generation of Hornby FGW releases (when they painted the stripes) with the lower half of the body sanded back before respraying in ivory.  It would seem that the new one should be similarly easy to back date... 

[James Makin]

My 5 dodgy ‘Fag Packet’ Mk3s with the wavy lines & misprinting are being collected to go back to Hornby tomorrow, hopefully the replacements will be spot on like the others!

 

Interestingly in my many years of never having burdened Hornby with anything in this hobby, I must say I’ve not had any sense of apology or compassion from the team that I’m having to return £200+ of coaches due to foreseeable poor quality issues, in comparison other manufacturers aftercare teams have been much more friendly!

 

Cheers,

James 

[toolongtoremember]

On 15/10/2022 at 20:32, TomScrut said:

 

Maybe they went "back in their box" after the news of the Hornby one 😉

It's the only way to guarantee to get Hornby to make models we want though...

[GordonC]

On 23/10/2022 at 12:19, James Makin said:

My 5 dodgy ‘Fag Packet’ Mk3s with the wavy lines & misprinting are being collected to go back to Hornby tomorrow, hopefully the replacements will be spot on like the others!

 

Interestingly in my many years of never having burdened Hornby with anything in this hobby, I must say I’ve not had any sense of apology or compassion from the team that I’m having to return £200+ of coaches due to foreseeable poor quality issues, in comparison other manufacturers aftercare teams have been much more friendly!

 

Cheers,

James 

 

I dont get the impression they care as much ... and the poor quality of models is also reflective of that

[shunny]

19 minutes ago, The Black Prince said:

Hattons have the ‘Fag Packet’ livery in stock, if you look at the attached.. how did that pass quality control! 

Hornby only have a quality control team for steam related items, anything modern will do as it is.....

[newbryford]

2 hours ago, shunny said:

Hornby only have a quality control team for steam related items, anything modern will do as it is.....

 

That was the inspiration for the First GW "wavy lines" livery.......

[martin_l_jones]

Sadly they even have first class poor quality...

 

I'm just going through mine now..

[Hilux5972]

Wow those are shocking. How they even think that 300mm+ long transfers can be applied perfectly by a team with 100’s, possibly 1000’s, to get through is beyond me. What on earth made them think it was gonna be a good idea????

[scouse889]

On 23/06/2022 at 19:17, James Makin said:

 

 

Thank goodness the examples pictured above have had the transfers “carefully applied”, as I’d hate to see what they were like had the transfers been applied really sloppily….

[Torbay Express]

On 27/10/2022 at 07:11, The Black Prince said:

Hattons have the ‘Fag Packet’ livery in stock, if you look at the attached.. how did that pass quality control! 

From asking the question on the poor quality blue on the LNER HST farewell coaches  'It's good enough..... "  Suppose the attitude is the same with these.  Such a shame that a brand that is famous for its model railways has this attitude! 

 

Lima for all their faults, even printed it in the 1990s.....progress eh? 

 

If only Accurascale did these is the obvious answer...... 

[MrTea]

13 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Wow those are shocking. How they even think that 300mm+ long transfers can be applied perfectly by a team with 100’s, possibly 1000’s, to get through is beyond me. What on earth made them think it was gonna be a good idea????

Hang on a sec - weren’t the prototype FGW carriages done with a 23m vinyl wrap?
(Possibly not in 1 continuous section though).
 

Perhaps Hornby’s effort is closer to the real thing than we’d all like to admit…

 

[GordonC]

38 minutes ago, MrTea said:

Hang on a sec - weren’t the prototype FGW carriages done with a 23m vinyl wrap?
(Possibly not in 1 continuous section though).
 

Perhaps Hornby’s effort is closer to the real thing than we’d all like to admit…

 

 

Maybe the method of application is the same, but I'll bet a whole lot more care was taken over the vinyl wrap. I've never seen a real one looking as bad as that, have you got a photo to prove otherwise?

[scouse889]

1 hour ago, MrTea said:

Hang on a sec - weren’t the prototype FGW carriages done with a 23m vinyl wrap?
(Possibly not in 1 continuous section though).
 

Perhaps Hornby’s effort is closer to the real thing than we’d all like to admit…

 

I think the real things were done with vinyls, yes, but surely the fundamental point to consider here is whether (a) Hornby set out to apply the transfers in this manner to reflect a prototype, or (b) they are inconsistently applied across examples due to a poor choice of production process, poorly executed. Given people have said there are better and worse examples, it is almost certainly the latter - and that is an issue which doesn’t fill me with confidence for the production of other forthcoming models…

[Torbay Express]

32 minutes ago, scouse889 said:

I think the real things were done with vinyls, yes, but surely the fundamental point to consider here is whether (a) Hornby set out to apply the transfers in this manner to reflect a prototype, or (b) they are inconsistently applied across examples due to a poor choice of production process, poorly executed. Given people have said there are better and worse examples, it is almost certainly the latter - and that is an issue which doesn’t fill me with confidence for the production of other forthcoming models…

I had considered the vynil question on the prototype , but you would be lucky if any of the team even see the items in real life.  Plus I am pretty confident that there is not a 'Merlin' logo and Great Western text below it...... 

[Torbay Express]

Talking of colours.... It seems an age old problem! The green on a very sunny day could look light, but ultimately I believe it should be darker..... 

 

Then again, from memory I seem to recall that this vehicle should be a very dark grey.  Trying to check, but the only photo I can find is on Departmentals, yet model is Green.....  (and the cant rail stripe does not extend around to the coach ends...... ) 

 

 

[scouse889]

3 hours ago, Torbay Express said:

I had considered the vynil question on the prototype , but you would be lucky if any of the team even see the items in real life.

 

Hardly an excuse for poor research - there must be umpteen pictures available for them to look at. Colour will always be subjective, I was referring to whether Hornby set out to make the lines on the coaches wavy by applying the transfers that way, or whether it is a factory error - and suspect the latter.

 

3 hours ago, Torbay Express said:

Plus I am pretty confident that there is not a 'Merlin' logo and Great Western text below it...... 

 

Sorry, I don't follow this? The prototypes had Great Western written at each end with the First 'Flying F' logo in the middle of the gold stripe on the coach body, as do the models. Flickr link:

 

 

The stripes look pretty straight to me on this vehicle. Must be a Lima one!

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by scouse889

[Torbay Express]

56 minutes ago, scouse889 said:

 

Hardly an excuse for poor research - there must be umpteen pictures available for them to look at. Colour will always be subjective, I was referring to whether Hornby set out to make the lines on the coaches wavy by applying the transfers that way, or whether it is a factory error - and suspect the latter.

 

 

Sorry, I don't follow this? The prototypes had Great Western written at each end with the First 'Flying F' logo in the middle of the gold stripe on the coach body, as do the models. Flickr link:

 

 

The stripes look pretty straight to me on this vehicle. Must be a Lima one!

 

I think that you will find originally, the fag packet livery was vyniled on top of the Merlin Livery, without needing to paint the full coach and locomotives!  47/8's looked really rough with a green patch consisting of a small gold 'f First' to cover the previous Merlin logo! 

[scouse889]

1 hour ago, Torbay Express said:

I think that you will find originally, the fag packet livery was vyniled on top of the Merlin Livery, without needing to paint the full coach and locomotives!  47/8's looked really rough with a green patch consisting of a small gold 'f First' to cover the previous Merlin logo! 

 

That makes sense, thanks.

I still come back to the orignal and I think key point about this though - unlikely that Hornby set out to make the lines on the coaches wavy by applying the transfers that way, more likely that it is not possible to apply the transfers consistently - so likely to give erros on future models which employ the same process, regardless if it reflects the way the prototypes had the livery applied.

 

 

[The Fatadder]

2 hours ago, Torbay Express said:

I think that you will find originally, the fag packet livery was vyniled on top of the Merlin Livery, without needing to paint the full coach and locomotives!  47/8's looked really rough with a green patch consisting of a small gold 'f First' to cover the previous Merlin logo! 

When they do the powercars it will be interesting to see if they get this right.  Where the vinyls were applied on the cabs they stop either side of the recess for the hand rail.  The vinyls start higher up the side than the old Merlin white stripe, this means when you look at the handrail area there is about an inch of green down from the top of the vinyl and then the rest is ivory.  Likewise the lower door handle had the vinyl cut away revealing  the ivory paint in the middle of the gold stripe.  (this is based on the original repaints, things may have changed later I guess)
 

 

Though I suspect the model will just have a badly applied transfer straight across the channel with an air bubble behind it….

 

 

While the mk3s look average to terrible livery wise, the powercar has a lot more potential to go wrong (even when you know what you are doing).   I will stick with @railtec-modelsversion and make another myself….

[Torbay Express]

4 hours ago, scouse889 said:

 

That makes sense, thanks.

I still come back to the orignal and I think key point about this though - unlikely that Hornby set out to make the lines on the coaches wavy by applying the transfers that way, more likely that it is not possible to apply the transfers consistently - so likely to give erros on future models which employ the same process, regardless if it reflects the way the prototypes had the livery applied.

 

 

No, they wouldn't set out to make them wave, but printing techniques use a datum to keep things true.  A transfer, to do it properly takes time and not really suited to mass model railway production.  Likewise to apply a long transfer to get air out etc, is a laborious task, requiring the correct amount of stretch etc., so very easy to mess up. 

 

As well as these coaches, anything with technical liveries - Class 66s (Malcolm, DB Key Workers, GBRF Pride) and I believe some of the new Class 91s also have transfers! It's not been done that way because the originals were done that way! 

 

It's a cost saving measure to save printing processes! If you go back onto Rapidos YouTube channel, Jason says about the amount of printing processes on something like a 156-it took ages to do! Bachmann did an amazing job on the London Underground Class 66s, and Hornby did a fair job on Harry Patch and on the Northern Settle and Carlisle livery.  But like anything that printing takes time and that equates to cost.  Transfer is simply a cheap (and nasty) way of doing complex liveries.  In the case of the 66s, you can even see the silvering, because its been applied to a matt surface! 

 

[Torbay Express]

On 16/10/2022 at 09:05, The Fatadder said:

 

Actually, Hornby have done First Great Western on coaches in the past.  Mk3 Sleeper and TGS, plus the loco hauled Mk2s. 

[The Fatadder]

4 minutes ago, Torbay Express said:

Actually, Hornby have done First Great Western on coaches in the past.  Mk3 Sleeper and TGS, plus the loco hauled Mk2s. 

and they painted it... 

[Torbay Express]

On 15/10/2022 at 20:32, TomScrut said:

 

Maybe they went "back in their box" after the news of the Hornby one 😉

Still think the only people who could pull the Mk3 off and HST plus could pretty much do all the versions (including prototypes) is Accurascale.  Firstly quality and detail would be there, plus technically advanced but at a fair price - if it came via Barwell would be looking at 80-100 pounds a coach, so full HST would be knocking around the £1k mark.  Then of course thirdly, there are Irish Mk3's which whilst different I am sure that they would love to do for Modellers of the Emerald Isle, and it is probably a case of when, rather than, if! 

[ac1874]

Rail Adventure power cars due next month according to Hornby stand at GBMRS today, Pullman power cars labelled as December.