Hornby 2021 - HST & Mk3 range

[Hilux5972]

2 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

The reviews are normally done on production run models just air-freighted in ahead of the bulk of the delivery though aren't they? I expect if they have decals, the production ones will too

 

It’s not a review. It’s decorated samples. 

[43179]

8 hours ago, GBRf66701 said:

I've just seen in the latest issue of Hornby mag a sample of the new tooling FGW fag packet mk3 and it appears the lining is a waterslide transfer again. It's not sitting down properly over the raised detail and looks awful. Hornby please stop using waterslide decals. Even Lima managed tampo lining and looks far better.

I was especially looking forward to the FGW HST so that's really disappointing. Looking very closely at the  photos on the Hornby Engine shed blog you can also see a transfer has been used on the FGW model there as well  - and doesn't conform properly to the shape of the door - you can see the edge of the transfer catching the light above above the door handle where it isn't actually touching the body and just looks a bit messy above the foot boards/bottom edge of the door.  l dread to think what the power cars will look like if they use the same method to decorate those . As you say Limas attempt at 'Fag Packet'  was very good considering the technology at the time,  now we've got digital printing which can take on seriously complex graphic liveries - such as on Hornbys own class 91 (For the Fallen livery) - or if you really want to see how its done properly, have a look at Rocos Vectron models   -  so its a massive shame to have these nice new retooled mk3s being made and then spoiled by the decoration, especially considering the price. They aren't actually on the shelves yet though -  Maybe , just maybe, the final versions will be finished differently, I don't have much hope .

 

Jon

[JohnC]

7 hours ago, 43179 said:

I was especially looking forward to the FGW HST so that's really disappointing. Looking very closely at the  photos on the Hornby Engine shed blog you can also see a transfer has been used on the FGW model there as well  - and doesn't conform properly to the shape of the door - you can see the edge of the transfer catching the light above above the door handle where it isn't actually touching the body and just looks a bit messy above the foot boards/bottom edge of the door.  l dread to think what the power cars will look like if they use the same method to decorate those . As you say Limas attempt at 'Fag Packet'  was very good considering the technology at the time,  now we've got digital printing which can take on seriously complex graphic liveries - such as on Hornbys own class 91 (For the Fallen livery) - or if you really want to see how its done properly, have a look at Rocos Vectron models   -  so its a massive shame to have these nice new retooled mk3s being made and then spoiled by the decoration, especially considering the price. They aren't actually on the shelves yet though -  Maybe , just maybe, the final versions will be finished differently, I don't have much hope .

 

Jon

The latest FGW neon livery coaches have a decal instead of tampo printing and they look awful.

What a backward step for Hornby, the first coaches that came out were far superior.

I was trying to De-brand a couple of coaches to have them as they arrived in Scotland prior to refurbishment and really difficult to remove First Group branding as it is part of the thick decal.

Not only that but they have the blue the wrong colour and it is difficult to match, nearest I could get was Maritime blue!!

no wonder they are having to turn out rubbish like the LNER Jubilee HST.

 

[James Makin]

For the benefit of RMWebbers, would there be any way that Warners may be able to press Hornby to give a brief update as to whether the production FGW 'Fag Packet' products use waterslide decals as alleged from the photos? 

 

It'd be great for us all to find out one way or another and similar to other product queries that have arisen over the years with the other manufacturers, if Hornby are able to give a definitive answer it could help boost pre-orders further - the allegations of transfer being used are surely pretty damaging if this isn't the case.

 

Like many others here I've placed a significant pre-order for these products already on the good faith of them being tampo-printed in line with 99.9% of all other previous Hornby releases, so to confirm the specification can only be a good thing and would mean that we can place further pre-orders with confidence.

 

At the moment it appears that, as buyers, we're shepherded towards committing to upfront pre-orders (and direct from Hornby.com, at that) to guarantee delivery, but it sounds as if the specification may be different to that advertised. Hopefully this won't be the case and Hornby can put the rumour to bed?

 

Many thanks in advance!

James

 

 

[GordonC]

2 hours ago, James Makin said:

For the benefit of RMWebbers, would there be any way that Warners may be able to press Hornby to give a brief update as to whether the production FGW 'Fag Packet' products use waterslide decals as alleged from the photos? 

 

It'd be great for us all to find out one way or another and similar to other product queries that have arisen over the years with the other manufacturers, if Hornby are able to give a definitive answer it could help boost pre-orders further - the allegations of transfer being used are surely pretty damaging if this isn't the case.

 

Like many others here I've placed a significant pre-order for these products already on the good faith of them being tampo-printed in line with 99.9% of all other previous Hornby releases, so to confirm the specification can only be a good thing and would mean that we can place further pre-orders with confidence.

 

At the moment it appears that, as buyers, we're shepherded towards committing to upfront pre-orders (and direct from Hornby.com, at that) to guarantee delivery, but it sounds as if the specification may be different to that advertised. Hopefully this won't be the case and Hornby can put the rumour to bed?

 

Many thanks in advance!

James

 

 

 

If its not right on delivery for the buyer then they can simply be returned with distance selling regulations

[James Makin]

Hi guys,

 

Bad news on the FGW Fag Packet HST, Hornby have confirmed to me that the stripes are indeed waterslide decals...!

 

I’ll wait and see what the quality is like in the flesh, I’ve ordered a small fleet of HSTs given we’ve been waiting 23 years for this livery so it’ll either be a very expensive Winter or a very cheap one!

The superb Railtec decals are still available so it will literally be a case of whether Hornby’s finish beats the ones I painted some years back, at least here the Mk3s will hopefully be a better standard than the originals.

 

Impressed that Hornby came back to my email in an afternoon though, full marks there, I did not expect them to engage so quickly on technical details with customers directly!

 

Cheers,

James

 

[Hilux5972]

12 hours ago, James Makin said:

Hi guys,

 

Bad news on the FGW Fag Packet HST, Hornby have confirmed to me that the stripes are indeed waterslide decals...!

 

I’ll wait and see what the quality is like in the flesh, I’ve ordered a small fleet of HSTs given we’ve been waiting 23 years for this livery so it’ll either be a very expensive Winter or a very cheap one!

The superb Railtec decals are still available so it will literally be a case of whether Hornby’s finish beats the ones I painted some years back, at least here the Mk3s will hopefully be a better standard than the originals.

 

Impressed that Hornby came back to my email in an afternoon though, full marks there, I did not expect them to engage so quickly on technical details with customers directly!

 

Cheers,

James

 

That’s a shame. Does anyone have the older Fag Packet stock? Was that transfers as well? Be interesting to know. 

[James Makin]

2 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

That’s a shame. Does anyone have the older Fag Packet stock? Was that transfers as well? Be interesting to know. 

I’ve got all of the releases of previous Fag Packet stock, from the Hornby Mk2s, Mk3 TGS, Lima Mk3s, Sleepers and HST, all tampo printed. I must say I thought the previous tampo efforts all tackled before were more than good enough for my eyes so was surprised to see that current-day Hornby feel unable to come close/exceed this in 2022!

 

My main concern upfront is the firstly whether the factory can consistently apply the decals as level as a printing machine can, and then secondly the long term durability, whether as users we’ll need to add a top coat of varnish to protect the decals to stop them getting easily scratched or lifting round the edges (and that’s assuming they have been fully applied over the contours of things like the doors and panel gaps, eek!).

 

Finally it will likely make renumbering challenging as we will have to patch paint over the gold band for a decal as there won’t be any printing to remove as such! 
 

I’m hoping that the end products will be amazing and all this is forgotten but it does bring up many concerns over using waterslide decals that you’d think should’ve been left behind 30+ years ago! 
 

Cheers,

James

[surfsup]

I have to say I'm very much with @James Makin on this one, I know I'm potentially playing it risky with these, but I'm sorry to say Hornby that I will now be holding back my pre-orders of them until I can see one in the flesh. I just cant understand why they now see Waterslide Transfers as producing a better quality finish than the previously Tampo Printed models (Mk2D, Mk3 TGS and Mk3 Sleepers) which despite their age, still stack up as some of the finest livery applications Hornby has managed to date - Even getting the ticket gold band and white lines to curve around the door of the (incorrectly tooled!) Mk2 D. It really makes it difficult to see the quality (Tampo vs Waterslide) argument.  

 

For comparison and showing off some of Hornby's previous efforts, I dug out some of my models for a quick photo in the garden this morning; Here is a Hornby Mk2 & Mk3 with the Lima rendition for comparison. 

 

 

Although the white lines look a little bunched in these photos, it's always been a livery which seems to play havoc with camera's, as the real thing shows here on Nathan Williamson's website: 

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by surfsup
Link added.

[Torbay Express]

6 hours ago, James Makin said:

I’ve got all of the releases of previous Fag Packet stock, from the Hornby Mk2s, Mk3 TGS, Lima Mk3s, Sleepers and HST, all tampo printed. I must say I thought the previous tampo efforts all tackled before were more than good enough for my eyes so was surprised to see that current-day Hornby feel unable to come close/exceed this in 2022!

 

My main concern upfront is the firstly whether the factory can consistently apply the decals as level as a printing machine can, and then secondly the long term durability, whether as users we’ll need to add a top coat of varnish to protect the decals to stop them getting easily scratched or lifting round the edges (and that’s assuming they have been fully applied over the contours of things like the doors and panel gaps, eek!).

 

Finally it will likely make renumbering challenging as we will have to patch paint over the gold band for a decal as there won’t be any printing to remove as such! 
 

I’m hoping that the end products will be amazing and all this is forgotten but it does bring up many concerns over using waterslide decals that you’d think should’ve been left behind 30+ years ago! 
 

Cheers,

James

Like most things, will be much cheaper to print a transfer and put it on than a good few tampo printing processes, drying time between passes etc..

 

Thought 'the fallen' Class 91 used transfers too?  That means the 'Original' xxx Squadron - Lest we forget, will still be the best looking model then!

 

 

[scouse889]

Something for Hornby to do in a pack with another 'normal' XC power car as part of their 2023 releases?

 

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2022/07/photos-crosscountry-high-speed-train-powercar-unveiled-in-new-livery-at-exeter-st-davids.html

 

They might get shot of a few of the SD Mk3s that won't even shift out the bargain bins then as well!

[Torbay Express]

22 hours ago, scouse889 said:

Something for Hornby to do in a pack with another 'normal' XC power car as part of their 2023 releases?

 

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2022/07/photos-crosscountry-high-speed-train-powercar-unveiled-in-new-livery-at-exeter-st-davids.html

 

They might get shot of a few of the SD Mk3s that won't even shift out the bargain bins then as well!

Yeah £899.00, complete with a faulty livery -  Intercity Brown instead of Exec Grey........  Another bargain......

[adb968008]

Iirc Lima started using stickers on the bodysides of its Load Haul liveried locos not long before its demise.

 

They hit the spot exactly where it hurt modellers and not where the factory expected, with modellers of that time…

 

i’m not fan of waterslide at all on rtr… if I do it myself is one thing, buying it rtr like that is completely another.. if you want to remove over-varnished factory finished rtr painted waterslide, well heres one such example that shrivelled in warm weather..

 

[PeterStiles]

On 09/07/2022 at 10:31, adb968008 said:

well heres one such example

 

Looks like prototypical weathering to me where the vinyl on the sides has started to wear away!

[Torbay Express]

On 09/07/2022 at 10:31, adb968008 said:

Iirc Lima started using stickers on the bodysides of its Load Haul liveried locos not long before its demise.

 

They hit the spot exactly where it hurt modellers and not where the factory expected, with modellers of that time…

 

i’m not fan of waterslide at all on rtr… if I do it myself is one thing, buying it rtr like that is completely another.. if you want to remove over-varnished factory finished rtr painted waterslide, well heres one such example that shrivelled in warm weather..

 

Should never even be thought about, nevermind done......

 

Were slightly tempted by a GB Pride 66, until I saw the silvering of the transfers on the body.  Passed on it, even at a bargain price.

[newbryford]

 

 

On 09/07/2022 at 10:31, adb968008 said:

 

 

i’m not fan of waterslide at all on rtr… if I do it myself is one thing, buying it rtr like that is completely another.. if you want to remove over-varnished factory finished rtr painted waterslide, well heres one such example that shrivelled in warm weather..

 

 

 

 

12 hours ago, PeterStiles said:

 

Looks like prototypical weathering to me where the vinyl on the sides has started to wear away!

 

Waits for Accurascale decals to peel off.

 

 

Oh - hang on......

 

 

 

 

[James Makin]

 

On 16/07/2022 at 20:47, The Black Prince said:

Cancelled my FGW HST pre-order, 2022 and they can't even do tampo printing that they some how managed (quite well it seems!)  20 years ago ? Obviously a cost decision, Accurascale have managed it with the TPE livery which is arguably more difficult than FGW !

 

Going off recent Hornby QC it's going to be a lottery if you can get a full set in a decent condition anyway.

 

Lets hope the rumours about AS doing HSTs and MK3s comes true!! 

 

This is perfectly illustrated by the Rails of Sheffield Ltd Edition Bachmann Class 47 just announced in the complex ROG livery, complete with multiple fade outs, colour changes and tiny pinstripes...Hornby saying FGW 'Fag Packet' can't be done as tampo printing...time to up their game and invest in some new technology to keep pace with competitors..!

 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by James Makin

[Shoey]

2 hours ago, James Makin said:

 

 

This is perfectly illustrated by the Rails of Sheffield Ltd Edition Bachmann Class 47 just announced in the complex ROG livery, complete with multiple fade outs, colour changes and tiny pinstripes...Hornby saying FGW 'Fag Packet' can't be done as tampo printing...time to up their game and invest in some new technology to keep pace with competitors..!

 

 

 

I’m hoping that now Bachman have invested in technology and seem to be able to tampo print intricate liveries/livery details, they are able to produce FGW’s ‘local lines’ livery to their class 150’s & 158’s! 

[PeterStiles]

17 hours ago, James Makin said:

Bachmann Class 47

 

Its not exactly the cheapest of locos tho' is it?

[159220]

18 hours ago, James Makin said:

Hornby saying FGW 'Fag Packet' can't be done as tampo printing...time to up their game and invest in some new technology to keep pace with competitors..!

 

I am not one to shy away from saying how uninterested Hornby are in the area of the hobby that interests me, but, I do have to correct where I see some untruth.

 

 

The Bachmann/Rails of Sheffield 47 is not tampo, but using Bachmann's 'ink jet' printing with a tampo printed outlay. Bachmann first used this on the London Transport Museum 66/7s back in 2015. But, it appears to have been introduced to the UK market by Hornby back in 2013 with the ex-Modelzone concessions exclusive FGW Mk3s R4369A, R4370A & R4370B. The most recent use of this ink jet printing by Hornby appears to be on their class 91 'For the Fallen'. 

 

I do feel their use of waterslide decal sheets to be rather disappointing (only because I can buy better from Railtec), but, it was well received when they first introduced the 'technology' on the 'exclusive' Drax IIA biomass hoppers back in 2016. And I shall admit it worked rather well on the Hitachi T2 (800002) limited edition where the livery was a combination of the waterslide decal sheet and tampo printing. I fear, as no one objected at the time to these (and I have seen many on RMWeb complain about the livery appearance on 91111. Though interestingly a former exclusive HST for Locomotion in the form of 'Harry Patch', used the same ink jet technique of the 91 and was warmly welcomed by the hobby...), Hornby feel the hobby welcomes the technique and has expanded it's use. But I suspect, much like @PeterStiles above, that it comes down to budget! 

 

It appears the thoughts on various techniques to apply a livery have come and gone out of favour, whether Hornby are following customer feedback (which might include the lack of sales on certain techniques) or are following budgets (ink jet printing takes time and thus it shall increase costs)...whatever they do use, seems to be heavily criticised on here. What is clear though, Hornby is the first to bring any of these techniques to the UK railway hobby market and I at least admire that (even if I choose to not buy. I would be bonkers to buy a HST or Mk3 seeing that even SK has said a competitor are going to release them...bring on the <insert Bachmann, Rapido, Heljan, Dapol etc> Mk3!). 

 

Anyway, I am no way defending or supporting Hornby here. Just, I like to have a factual discussion based on historical evidence. It does not matter if you have the latest and best technology to produce a model if you lack the expertise to execute it! 

[Northmoor MPD]

Looks like the newly tooled MK3s are due in stock shortly, looking forward to seeing if they are any good! 

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, Northmoor MPD said:

Looks like the newly tooled MK3s are due in stock shortly, looking forward to seeing if they are any good! 

Ive been here twice before.

 

Aint no way i’m touching the coaches in a set until I see what the ends look like.

 

 

[jonnyuk]

think i spoke to that bloke that did not want to be there. i asked about the pullman set, what was on display was the final product, looked bloody good as well!

twin speakers, fans are powered by motors, the detail on the underframe looks improved as does the shell, it just looked sharper and more refined, looking forward to the pullman now. 

Not sure if it was the same guy giving Simon some abuse but i was stood their while Simon was indeed getting a roasting, to be fair Simon was polite, listened and tried to reason but the other bloke was having non of it, thought he was very rude to be honest, no need for it.

I had a 5 minute chat with Simon and he came across well, i know allot is said of the bloke but i can only judge him on my own personal experience (all 5 minutes of it).

 

[adb968008]

27 minutes ago, jonnyuk said:

think i spoke to that bloke that did not want to be there. i asked about the pullman set, what was on display was the final product, looked bloody good as well!

twin speakers, fans are powered by motors, the detail on the underframe looks improved as does the shell, it just looked sharper and more refined, looking forward to the pullman now. 

Not sure if it was the same guy giving Simon some abuse but i was stood their while Simon was indeed getting a roasting, to be fair Simon was polite, listened and tried to reason but the other bloke was having non of it, thought he was very rude to be honest, no need for it.

I had a 5 minute chat with Simon and he came across well, i know allot is said of the bloke but i can only judge him on my own personal experience (all 5 minutes of it).

 

Were the TV cameras there today for the Hornby pt2 ?

[jonnyuk]

did not see any, although saying that a tv show was there filming Mike Wild next to the Hornby stand, so maybe.