Hornby 2021 - P2 new tooling

[Johan DC]

On Sam's Trains' review he briefly showed something interesting on one of the driving axles there seems to be a device to sync sound and/or smoke. Someone got theirs open yet? 

[Mr chapman]

Not one for me but I must say I'm so happy they included a crew! May that spread to everything else in the range!

[MrTea]

17 hours ago, Rshakes3 said:

Hi team, I`ve been reading Andrew Hardy's P2 book over the last few weeks and the team behind PoW have done a significant amount of work redesigning/improving the P2. Things like re designing the Pony truck, updating axles to meet BR BAS 504 principles & roller bearings all round. They have also computer modeled their CAD design with VAMPIRE s/w to ensure that issues with possible derailments have been address. They also expect to have over 70% of parts interchangeability with Tornado, things like the boiler, roller bearings, injectors,  Cartizzi assembly, braking system, electrics & even the tenders - note that they plan to have 3 identical boilers at the end of the day. So all in all 2007 should be a far better P2  - looking forward to seeing it on the mail line in the next few years.

 

At the Darlington Locomotive Works Open Day on Saturday there was some more detail on this from both Steve Davies (the Chairman) and David Elliott (Director of Engineering). Sadly David is having treatment for prostate cancer at the moment so he's been putting a lot of work into ensuring as much of his thinking is documented.

 

 

[AdamOrmorod]

5 hours ago, Johan DC said:

 I'd suggest you try to see one or both streamliners in the flesh, it might help you of the fence, possible on the 'yeay' side. Mine just arrived here in Belgium, and they are flawless. The ridge is almost not visible, and it fits perfectly on both. 

 

Would you mind photographing the smokebox join please? I'm yet to see a photo of one I personally wouldn't have noticed (which is tempting me to keep this one, as while the join is one of the larger ones it is at least uniform the way around...)

[No Decorum]

2 hours ago, Daddyman said:

My dad ordered one from TMC and I told him to ask them to check this joint before sending - probably a good policy for anyone buying one. Whether it does any good remains to be seen... 

 

The curve-under at the bottom the front skirts on this looks very good - much better than the A4. But the skirts where they cover the cylinders look a bit flat - the real thing has quite a complex bulge there. Doesn't look like it's present on the model - can anyone confirm? 

Good spot; I confess that I’d forgotten to look for it. I can’t see it either in any photographs. It is as distinctive a feature of the streamlined P2s as the external steam pipe. My old professionally built model is mostly not up to Hornby standard but the bulge you refer to is clearly visible on it.

 

[Johan DC]

7 hours ago, AdamOrmorod said:

 

Would you mind photographing the smokebox join please? I'm yet to see a photo of one I personally wouldn't have noticed (which is tempting me to keep this one, as while the join is one of the larger ones it is at least uniform the way around...)

Taken with a rather old phone, in not the best of lights, but you can get the idea.  In real life, you have to look for it to see it. 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Johan DC

[gary_lner]

9 hours ago, Johan DC said:

On Sam's Trains' review he briefly showed something interesting on one of the driving axles there seems to be a device to sync sound and/or smoke. Someone got theirs open yet? 

Could be for the yet to come 2007 with steam and sound. 

[Daddyman]

18 hours ago, No Decorum said:

Good spot; I confess that I’d forgotten to look for it. I can’t see it either in any photographs. It is as distinctive a feature of the streamlined P2s as the external steam pipe. My old professionally built model is mostly not up to Hornby standard but the bulge you refer to is clearly visible on it.

 

Thanks for confirming it's absent on the Hornby model.

 

My feeling was that it was a different shape on every one of the prototypes. It's a particularly complex shape ahead of the cylinders, where the bulge blends back into flat. And the "low" or "normal" valance that passes over the driving wheels actually continues some way forward, ending about level with the front of the cylinders. Some years ago when I was working on a conversion of the original P2 to a streamlined one using an A4 front end, I made the piece of the skirts that covers the cylinders in 5 thou brass, which got the shape right, but I could never work out how to attach it to the plastic body, or to represent the "low" valance continuing above the cylinders, or how to blend the brass in ahead of the cylinders. Seems like Hornby couldn't either!    

Edited August 10, 2023 by Daddyman

[AdamOrmorod]

17 minutes ago, Daddyman said:

Thanks for confirming it's absent on the Hornby model.

 

My feeling was that it was a different shape on every one of the prototypes. It's a particularly complex shape ahead of the cylinders, which the bulge blends back into flat. And the "low" or "normal" valance that passes over the driving wheels actually continues some way forward, ending about level with the front of the cylinders. Some years ago when I was working on a conversion of the original P2 to a streamlined one using an A4 front end, I made the piece of the skirts that covers the cylinders in 5 thou brass, which got the shape right, but I could never work out how to attach it to the plastic body, or to represent the "low" valance continuing above the cylinders, or how to blend the brass in ahead of the cylinders. Seems like Hornby couldn't either!    

They mentioned this about 2 years ago on the engine shed when the renders appeared:

 

"The above renders show the latest version of 2003 ‘Lord President’. Despite looking similar to the A4 and W1 Streamlined front, the P2s streamlined casing has its own unique geometry and a few unique details. It was often the case during this era that engineering drawings differed from the final locomotive as construction relied heavily on the skills of the workers building them. A particular feature of the original locomotives was the way the casing was forced around the cylinders which from photos appears to have resulted in different creases on each unique locomotive. The challenge for the Hornby designers was to design the model in such a way as to reflect an idealised pristine condition while still matching faithful to the real locomotive rather than the engineering drawings."

[AdamOrmorod]

Had a reply from Hornby r.e. the smokebox gap:

 

"I have passed your phone and enquiry to our Quality Team and they have confirmed that the line is there joining between two parts, one metal and one diecast, there is always going to be a line there, we can collect and send a replacement but this will be no different from the one you have."

 

I don't think any part of the body is metal? Even the running plate seems to be plastic (imo an improvement as at least there's no visible join there towards the front)

 

[Eddie the dog]

Can’t help but notice the lining on the cab sits slightly lower than that on the tender.

Can anyone confirm if using the flanged wheel set overcomes this please ?

Where curves allow obviously.

[Daddyman]

45 minutes ago, AdamOrmorod said:

"The challenge for the Hornby designers was to design the model in such a way as to reflect an idealised pristine condition while still matching faithful to the real locomotive rather than the engineering drawings."

Useful, thanks. Looks like this fell by the wayside - maybe to allow the loco to clear platforms on trainset curves? I don't immediately have to hand the dimension over cylinders on the real P2s compared to A4s - does anyone? I admit it's only Idle curiosity.   

[Daddyman]

41 minutes ago, AdamOrmorod said:

I don't think any part of the body is metal? Even the running plate seems to be plastic (imo an improvement as at least there's no visible join there towards the front)

 

That was my understanding too. And clearly some of the smokeboxes are different, or are fitted differently, as evinced by the photos on here. 

[G-BOAF]

51 minutes ago, AdamOrmorod said:

Had a reply from Hornby r.e. the smokebox gap:

 

"I have passed your phone and enquiry to our Quality Team and they have confirmed that the line is there joining between two parts, one metal and one diecast, there is always going to be a line there, we can collect and send a replacement but this will be no different from the one you have."

 

I don't think any part of the body is metal? Even the running plate seems to be plastic (imo an improvement as at least there's no visible join there towards the front)

 

Interesting - based on the EP, the running plate (for the non-streamlined version at least) was metal, while the boiler and smokebox appear to be plastic.

The CAD showed that for the A4 front end, the streamlined end AND the running plate were one piece. Does this mean the Streamlined version has a metal smokebox/nose? Or that the Streamlined version has a plastic running plate while the others have metal?

[No Decorum]

2 minutes ago, Daddyman said:

That was my understanding too. And clearly some of the smokeboxes are different, or are fitted differently, as evinced by the photos on here. 

I’d agree with that. At the risk of attracting derision, I have watched Sam’s Trains very informative review. He shows some extreme and very crisp close ups and the smokebox on his Lord President seems fitted very well. The pictures also show that Hornby seems to have overcome the poor finish on LNER locomotives at long last. Sam didn’t try fitting the flanged trailing wheels, though. I’m fairly sure that if he had, the loco would have got stuck on his tight curves. Has anyone tried fitting them? If so, do they turn on straight track? My layout uses large radius Peco Streamline points througout and curves are laid to 6' minimum radius. It allows flanged trailing wheels to operate successfully except where Hornby has designed them so that they are jammed against the chassis and won’t turn. Good for display but not running.

[Johan DC]

Answer from H to S on YT, when talking about the plastic running plate:

 

[mattingleycustom]

7 hours ago, Johan DC said:

Taken with a rather old phone, in not the best of lights, but you can get the idea.  In real life, you have to look for it to see it. 

 

 

I wouldn't get too hung up on the gap between boiler and smokebox, that is truly minor.

If I had to criticise anything the white lining on the parabolic curve is too thick and the black lining on the boiler bands is too narrow; for reference Dapol have done a very good job with the boiler bands on the SR D1 Class locos.

 

All in all its a cracking model of an impressive loco.

 

Glenn

[maico]

16 hours ago, micklner said:

 

 

Is the Grey Model  a photo of a 3D Mock up in the last post?.

 

Digital renders like that are always a bit to perfect compared to actual production, model or real

 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by maico

[spamcan61]

1 minute ago, maico said:

 

Digital renders like this are always a bit to perfect compared to actual production

 

Absolutely, the trouble is they're getting so realistic it can be quite difficult to tell render from physical model, to the point that I think digital renders should be labelled as such so I know what I'm looking at.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

3 hours ago, No Decorum said:

....fitting the flanged trailing wheels.... Has anyone tried fitting them? If so, do they turn on straight track?

Not yet, not even thought to get in the queue for a P2*.

 

However, all past experience of the Hornby 'display only' provision for a flanged wheelset suggests that much hacking inside the Cartazzi or rear truck frame representations is to be anticipated to make it a runner on my 36" minimum radius, Peco large rad point, main line. This has been succesfully achieved for all of A3, A4, W1 and BR std 7MT; happily the site of all the hacking is fully concealed, which makes it a simple job, there's no iginificant refinishing required. (What really made me laugh on the Brit was that the flanges fouled the truck casting, so the wheelset for 'display' had presumably never been tried before it went on sale. Mine were all bought within months of first release so I have no idea if Hornby ever fixed this...)

 

*What I want is a streamlined P2with d/c in BR lined green. I am prepared to put the 9P/10F on the cab side myelf. Come on Hornby, milk this mighty cash cow for all it is worth.

[No Decorum]

1 minute ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Not yet, not even thought to get in the queue for a P2*.

 

However, all past experience of the Hornby 'display only' provision for a flanged wheelset suggests that much hacking inside the Cartazzi or rear truck frame representations is to be anticipated to make it a runner on my 36" minimum radius, Peco large rad point, main line. This has been succesfully achieved for all of A3, A4, W1 and BR std 7MT; happily the site of all the hacking is fully concealed, which makes it a simple job, there's no iginificant refinishing required. (What really made me laugh on the Brit was that the flanges fouled the truck casting, so the wheelset for 'display' had presumably never been tried before it went on sale. Mine were all bought within months of first release so I have no idea if Hornby ever fixed this...)

 

*What I want is a streamlined P2with d/c in BR lined green. I am prepared to put the 9P/10F on the cab side myelf. Come on Hornby, milk this mighty cash cow for all it is worth.

My Brit and Clan were fine as were my latest release Princesses. Sir William needed a little hacking but my Bulleid was hopeless and I gave up my W1 as a bad job because there wasn’t enough room between railhead and chassis bottom. I congratulate you for achieving it!

[PeterStiles]

Now then ...

 

Hornby's 2007 is complete and available well before the 12" to the foot version...

 

They are both being built from the same original drawings/plans...

 

Does this technically mean that the Hornby model is the _prototype_ and the full size one simply a rather large, live steam, model?

 

So if there are any discrepancies between the Hornby 2007 and the full size one, then we should raise our complaints with the Trust as opposed to Hornby?

 

[5Dublo2]

25 minutes ago, PeterStiles said:

Does this technically mean that the Hornby model is the _prototype_ and the full size one simply a rather large, live steam, model?

 

 

No it means the Hornby one is the Maquette (and The Trust outsourced the production of it to Hornby)

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 hour ago, No Decorum said:

I gave up my W1 as a bad job because there wasn’t enough room between railhead and chassis bottom. I congratulate you for achieving it!

I used an old Bachmann B1 bogie frame as the basis for mounting the supplied trailing wheels, and carved away the underside of the chassis casting to make clearance for the flanges with a side cutter in a high speed rotary tool. It really wasn't that difficult, especially in the context of Hornby having done 99% of the work, and 100% of what's on view with the loco winging along the track. 

[Coldgunner]

Has anyone made a direct comparison with the old "Design Clever" version of 2001? Doubt I'll ever bother changing it, but interested to see if there's a marked difference.