Hornby 2021 - P2 new tooling

[Opelsi]

Just been looking at Hattons website and R3983 Class P2 2-8-2 2007 "Prince of Wales"

Please forgive me if already covered.

Part of the front valve gear looks to be still plastic, like the older R3207 'Cock O' The North' rather than the newer sister R3984 Class P2 2-8-2 2002 "Earl Marischal" which appears all metal!

Am I seeing something amiss? Thought the new version was all metal valve gear as part of the upgrade?

 

[Steam here!]

15 hours ago, palmsticks said:

I learnt today from my wife that the collective name for a group of P2s is "toomeni"...

 

Anyway, here are some pictures of monterous green engines with some big green engines to act as a comparison for LNER livery applications.  My phone camera is not the best, so apologies for the quality of the pictures (obviously the equipment at fault and def not the operator).  Usual caveate applies re. colour: inside under LED lighting, on digital sensor, displayed with *insert screen type here* screen. 

 

Some observations:-

• 2002 Earl Marishal = as built condition (as already reported) (--> Suppose I can definatively answer my own question in the other thread!)
• 2002 accessory bag does include guard irons, but 2003 and 2005 do not.
• 2002 cab roof correctly has no ventilators behind and above the driver and fireman.  Both 2003 and 2005 do. <--Anybody know when this mod was applied? When built, they did also did not have them.  2006 built from new with these ventilators based on experience with the others (so says Yeadons).
• They are heavy
• 2003 and 2005 -Join visible where the Bugatti smokebox component mates to the boiler section (not visible on 2002) as reported by @AdamOrmorod but not as noticeable (to me) and not a deal breaker. 2005 does seem to suffer more.
• Slight witness of tool parting lines at 10 o'clock & 2 o'clock on 2002.
• Accessory name plates appear to be brass and not plastic (as reported by @Steam here!) after scratching the paint away on the back of the fret holding them and seeing a shiny brass colour.  Well, this is the case with 2002.  Didn't check the others.
• The close coupling is Ree Modeles good.
• Line lining on the front of the cab is very nice and shows up earlier examples of black borders being too large
• Pleased with them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Palmsticks, thanks for all the info, is there a chance we could see the nameplates from the accessory pack with the brass showing?

 

when I looked at mine the other day for “Lord President”, they didn’t feel etched, there was more of a plastic feel to them.

 

I’ve also emailed Hornby regarding the guard irons, that were missing from 2003 & 2005, waiting for a reply.

[Steam here!]

Well I was surprised, the nameplates in the accessory pack are etched by the looks of things.

 

only scraped some of the back just to see for myself, this I’ll repaint black again at a later date to stop the brass being shown from behind.

[5Dublo2]

1 minute ago, Steam here! said:

Well I was surprised, the nameplates in the accessory pack are etched by the looks of things.

 

only scraped some of the back just to see for myself, this I’ll repaint black again at a later date to stop the brass being shown from behind.

 

 

Hmm even without scraping the backs like you did, when anyone cuts the nameplates out of the sprue there will be metal spots showing though on the ends that will have to be painted

[Steam here!]

A full house for the 1st release, look forward to any future releases of these magnificent locos.

[Rshakes3]

14 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&amp;D said:

 

It's not just the mechanicals. Exhaust clearance was a significant problem with the original external form. The use of the Bugatti shrouding when the A4 was introduced, suggested the way forward in fixing this problem on the P2.

 

Now, admittedly aerodynamic knowledge is much advanced over that of the 1930's so something approximating the original external form may  now be made to perform better. But it's money being spent toward solving a problem long ago eliminated would be my feeling. And it won't be anywhere near as attractive...

 

On the mechanical side, hopefully advances in technique will succeed in overcoming this machine's major problems in riding on curves, and dealing with the piston thrusts with 33% more adhesion inflicting greater loads on the big ends. Where the equivalent pacific would begin to relieve load by slipping, the mikado won't. (Chapelon had much to say on this matter, that the weight restrictions of European railways set a limit on higher power output steam locos; because key aspects of the construction could not be made stronger.)

Hi team, I`ve been reading Andrew Hardy's P2 book over the last few weeks and the team behind PoW have done a significant amount of work redesigning/improving the P2. Things like re designing the Pony truck, updating axles to meet BR BAS 504 principles & roller bearings all round. They have also computer modeled their CAD design with VAMPIRE s/w to ensure that issues with possible derailments have been address. They also expect to have over 70% of parts interchangeability with Tornado, things like the boiler, roller bearings, injectors,  Cartizzi assembly, braking system, electrics & even the tenders - note that they plan to have 3 identical boilers at the end of the day. So all in all 2007 should be a far better P2  - looking forward to seeing it on the mail line in the next few years.

[No Decorum]

8 hours ago, Steam here! said:

Well I was surprised, the nameplates in the accessory pack are etched by the looks of things.

 

only scraped some of the back just to see for myself, this I’ll repaint black again at a later date to stop the brass being shown from behind.

Those look to me like the Hornby latest way of doing things, i.e. printed onto a piece of metal. If it were me, I think a model such as this deserves proper etched nameplates.

[scots region]

4 hours ago, Rshakes3 said:

Hi team, I`ve been reading Andrew Hardy's P2 book over the last few weeks and the team behind PoW have done a significant amount of work redesigning/improving the P2. Things like re designing the Pony truck, updating axles to meet BR BAS 504 principles & roller bearings all round. They have also computer modeled their CAD design with VAMPIRE s/w to ensure that issues with possible derailments have been address. They also expect to have over 70% of parts interchangeability with Tornado, things like the boiler, roller bearings, injectors,  Cartizzi assembly, braking system, electrics & even the tenders - note that they plan to have 3 identical boilers at the end of the day. So all in all 2007 should be a far better P2  - looking forward to seeing it on the mail line in the next few years.

That would make her a P2/1 then? Or perhaps a P2/4 if you include the valve gear modification on 2002 and 2003’s streamlining.

[No Decorum]

14 hours ago, Opelsi said:

Just been looking at Hattons website and R3983 Class P2 2-8-2 2007 "Prince of Wales"

Please forgive me if already covered.

Part of the front valve gear looks to be still plastic, like the older R3207 'Cock O' The North' rather than the newer sister R3984 Class P2 2-8-2 2002 "Earl Marischal" which appears all metal!

Am I seeing something amiss? Thought the new version was all metal valve gear as part of the upgrade?

 

I took a look at those pictures and there seems to be no crank to drive the gear. Kernow hasn’t put up photographs yet but the artwork shows the crank. It does look a bit disappointing.

[G-BOAF]

10 hours ago, Steam here! said:

Well I was surprised, the nameplates in the accessory pack are etched by the looks of things.

 

only scraped some of the back just to see for myself, this I’ll repaint black again at a later date to stop the brass being shown from behind.

Brass they may be, but it still looks like the lettering is printed (potentially by absence of black paint) and the letters are not relief etched as is usual practice. Closer than previous plastic versions, but still strange they are not proper etched plates!

[Coldgunner]

Might be just as well getting some aftermarket plates fitted. Might be the lighting on the pictures, but it just looks too chunky?

[5Dublo2]

3 hours ago, G-BOAF said:

Brass they may be, but it still looks like the lettering is printed (potentially by absence of black paint) and the letters are not relief etched as is usual practice. Closer than previous plastic versions, but still strange they are not proper etched plates!

Is the lettering and edge strip painted or is it that the brass work is raised up and the black is applied to the background?

The may have even applied the black over the whole of the front and then skimmed it off the raised up parts (which might be a quicker/cheaper process than applying black paint while avoiding the raised parts)

[E100]

 

[E100]

I'm really on the fence about 2005 and this noticeable difference in diameter that appears near the smokebox. It'd be a rule 1 purchase and I'd need to join the collectors club so by all accounts £230 DCC ready. Any further photos of this area are very welcome. What concerns me is that it does appear to be the incorrect diameter rather than misaligned (i.e. off to one side / too high or low) and therefore this appears to be something that would be challenging for Hornby to correct in future versions without a partial retool, since it doesn't appear to be solely an assembly issue but this only going off a couple of examples.

 

I've checked some images of 2005 in service and I honestly cannot see any kind of ridge in this area and it looks very smooth in that area as one would expect. https://www.a1steam.com/educational-resources/prince-of-wales/no-2005-thane-of-fife

 

It does make me wonder if there's a tool for 2007 that is different to 2002 dimensionally and has somehow been used instead as they were keen to emphasis that even minor dimensional differences were to be accommodated in 2007. That being said the correct wash outs/rivets etc all appear present so probably not.

[scots region]

2 minutes ago, E100 said:

I'm really on the fence about 2005 and this noticeable difference in diameter that appears near the smokebox. It'd be a rule 1 purchase and I'd need to join the collectors club so by all accounts £230 DCC ready. Any further photos of this area are very welcome. What concerns me is that it does appear to be the incorrect diameter rather than misaligned (i.e. off to one side / too high or low) and therefore this appears to be something that would be challenging for Hornby to correct in future versions without a partial retool, since it doesn't appear to be solely an assembly issue but this only going off a couple of examples.

 

I've checked some images of 2005 in service and I honestly cannot see any kind of ridge in this area and it looks very smooth in that area as one would expect. https://www.a1steam.com/educational-resources/prince-of-wales/no-2005-thane-of-fife

 

It does make me wonder if there's a tool for 2007 that is different to 2002 dimensionally and has somehow been used instead as they were keen to emphasis that even minor dimensional differences were to be accommodated in 2007. That being said the correct wash outs/rivets etc all appear present so probably not.

Obviously your money, is your money, but for me personally the join isn’t noticeable unless you are with a few centimetres of viewing. Seems to be about the thickness of a human hair on my example. I can live with it as a compromise as it’s unlikely any other manufacturer is going to attempt a P2.

 

ScR

[E100]

2 minutes ago, scots region said:

Obviously your money, is your money, but for me personally the join isn’t noticeable unless you are with a few centimetres of viewing. Seems to be about the thickness of a human hair on my example. I can live with it as a compromise as it’s unlikely any other manufacturer is going to attempt a P2.

 

ScR

 

Thanks for the info. Yeah - it often does look worse in photos. I think if this was a normal model I'd have no hesitation in ordering and returning. It's just I'd need to join the club and doubt that would get refunded. 

 

Completely agree around no one else doing a P2 anytime soon and then there's the question of if they'd do any better.

Edited August 9, 2023 by E100

[scots region]

1 hour ago, E100 said:

 

Thanks for the info. Yeah - it often does look worse in photos. I think if this was a normal model I'd have no hesitation in ordering and returning. It's just I'd need to join the club and doubt that would get refunded. 

 

Completely agree around no one else doing a P2 anytime soon and then there's the question of if they'd do any better.

For me they’re about a 99.8% model. There are tiny flaws, the seam, the lack of guard irons and the nameplates. It’s nearly perfect and definitely a lot better than some of Hornby’s latest efforts, just let down by a few unnecessary oversights. Like the guard irons are just annoying because it requires me to order them in from Hornby.

 

Still I was planning on just ordering etched nameplates separately so it’s doesn’t matter too much to me if they’re not perfect. 
 

ScR

[Johan DC]

2 hours ago, E100 said:

I'm really on the fence about 2005 and this noticeable difference in diameter that appears near the smokebox. 

 I'd suggest you try to see one or both streamliners in the flesh, it might help you of the fence, possible on the 'yeay' side. Mine just arrived here in Belgium, and they are flawless. The ridge is almost not visible, and it fits perfectly on both. 

For those into HM7000 TXS, this is the fastest ever sound decoder installation. By far. If @Jenny Emilyneeds an idea for a short YT-video, highly recommended! 

Unplug the tender, take the three screws out and open it, remove the cover Paper from the TXS-speaker, place it on the pre-installed speakerbox, plug in the decoder, connect the speaker, close up and connect the tender, and go! Typing this took me twice as long. 

And if you are an idiot like me, and bought two locos and only one decoder, swapping the tenders is a five second job. 

 

[gary_lner]

16 minutes ago, Johan DC said:

 I'd suggest you try to see one or both streamliners in the flesh, it might help you of the fence, possible on the 'yeay' side. Mine just arrived here in Belgium, and they are flawless. The ridge is almost not visible, and it fits perfectly on both. 

For those into HM7000 TXS, this is the fastest ever sound decoder installation. By far. If @Jenny Emilyneeds an idea for a short YT-video, highly recommended! 

Unplug the tender, take the three screws out and open it, remove the cover Paper from the TXS-speaker, place it on the pre-installed speakerbox, plug in the decoder, connect the speaker, close up and connect the tender, and go! Typing this took me twice as long. 

And if you are an idiot like me, and bought two locos and only one decoder, swapping the tenders is a five second job. 

 

Is there a p2 sound file already? Possibly the old tts version?

 

Regards Gary 

[SteveM666]

23 minutes ago, gary_lner said:

Is there a p2 sound file already? Possibly the old tts version?

 

Regards Gary 

As has been said many times before, all the TXS sound files are new with nothing carried over from the old TTS files. And yes there is a P2 file on the app.

[Edge]

1 hour ago, Johan DC said:

 I'd suggest you try to see one or both streamliners in the flesh, it might help you of the fence, possible on the 'yeay' side. Mine just arrived here in Belgium, and they are flawless. The ridge is almost not visible, and it fits perfectly on both. 

For those into HM7000 TXS, this is the fastest ever sound decoder installation. By far. If @Jenny Emilyneeds an idea for a short YT-video, highly recommended! 

Unplug the tender, take the three screws out and open it, remove the cover Paper from the TXS-speaker, place it on the pre-installed speakerbox, plug in the decoder, connect the speaker, close up and connect the tender, and go! Typing this took me twice as long. 

And if you are an idiot like me, and bought two locos and only one decoder, swapping the tenders is a five second job. 

 

That is a neat arrangement for the speaker. Bravo Hornby 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Edge

[Jenny Emily]

Edit: somehow I managed to post in the wrong topic

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Jenny Emily
Posted in wrong topic

[maico]

5 hours ago, E100 said:

I'm really on the fence about 2005 and this noticeable difference in diameter that appears near the smokebox. It'd be a rule 1 purchase and I'd need to join the collectors club so by all accounts £230 DCC ready. Any further photos of this area are very welcome. What concerns me is that it does appear to be the incorrect diameter rather than misaligned (i.e. off to one side / too high or low) and therefore this appears to be something that would be challenging for Hornby to correct in future versions without a partial retool, since it doesn't appear to be solely an assembly issue but this only going off a couple of examples.

 

I've checked some images of 2005 in service and I honestly cannot see any kind of ridge in this area and it looks very smooth in that area as one would expect. https://www.a1steam.com/educational-resources/prince-of-wales/no-2005-thane-of-fife

 

It does make me wonder if there's a tool for 2007 that is different to 2002 dimensionally and has somehow been used instead as they were keen to emphasis that even minor dimensional differences were to be accommodated in 2007. That being said the correct wash outs/rivets etc all appear present so probably not.

 

[micklner]

If you look closely at the older Hornby A1 and A3 produced from the early 2000's e.g the NRM Flying Scotsman R2441. Hornby did the same kind of design on those. tThe Boiler join is one band ahead of the Dome on them, airly well hidden by the adjacent Boiler Band and was at least level with the forward Boiler Smokebox section.

To me, some look poorly assembled, in particular one model has been shown on here as very poor, with a large gap present and the Boiler undersized. 

This kind of defect should have been picked up on the assembly line in China, weeks or months ago.

 

Is the Grey Model  a photo of a 3D Mock up in the last post?.

[Daddyman]

My dad ordered one from TMC and I told him to ask them to check this joint before sending - probably a good policy for anyone buying one. Whether it does any good remains to be seen... 

 

The curve-under at the bottom the front skirts on this looks very good - much better than the A4. But the skirts where they cover the cylinders look a bit flat - the real thing has quite a complex bulge there. Doesn't look like it's present on the model - can anyone confirm?